SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

namliaM · Aug 13, 2006

LuvToBuild said:
Horses would give us chariots and later horse archers. Chariots won't be as good as our own axemen against the barb axemen, but they will at least be better than fighting them with archers.

I think our now promoted archers will do a better job vs Axe, than an unpromoted Chariot...

As for turning down the to 0% for 10 turns, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind that and what it has to do with the building of the Library. Are you saying run 0% to build up a cash reserve that we then use later to allow us to run 100% with the libraries and get more than we would have gotten running 60% and breaking even the whole time? I can sort of see where that makes sense.

Actually you save up some cash BEFORE you finish the Libraries (thus "only" 100%) once the libs are up get get back 125% (lib bonus) :science:

back...

Cosmichail said:
Stretching far with raging barb is not wise so the alternate copper site I agree has to wait. So the horses it is. Let's just hope that we have Iron near by otherwise we have no chance of taking izzy out.

This is one of the reasons that I believe that we will have Iron Near... Maybe even on the hill of Kyoto

tho that will not help in taking out Isa....

Pottery is in particular important for the Granary IMHO... + we have new whippable material in Kyoto... which we want to keep and whip at an opportune time for the great lib...

Courthouse will be a MAJOR boost to our economy

lucky most/all teams face the same problem... Infact this may be the one reason to go CoL => IW...

Settling on the copper I think is a bad idea... Goal is Conquest, but in Isa's case.... We can keep some of it, in particular Holy cities and NON jungle ones...

Eektor has quite a bit of catching up to do before playing....

good keep it up guys... I like the first techpath too, IF we feel we have a chance at the 350 hammer Great lib.
175 hammers whip = 175/(45/2) = 8 pop !
Realisticaly we can whip maybe 4 people on one whip = 90 hammers (4*45 * 50% = penalty for wonder whipping right?)
so we need 260 hammers from another source/whips
I suggest saving up some of those whips allready to plan for the great lib... We want to finish/whip the Lib ASAP, but put max hammers into a Barracks? Maybe an archer too?
Thats another 90 hammers "only" 170 left to go... A granary? Workboat?

Edit: Actually I was thinking Optics for the Caravels and Whales... but that just happens to require us having mace's as well...

pigswill · Aug 13, 2006

I agree with tech path one (alphabet); we also got a civ south east of Kyoto at some point. I agree with horse city. I still don't agree with cow island.
What I suppose it comes down to is wether the game was designed to have a fallback position from Kyoto (namliaM's view as I understand it) or wether Kyoto was set up to provide the challenge of overcoming distance maintenance without it being a focus of alternative development (my point of view as I understand it).

namliaM · Aug 13, 2006

Looking at the save i would do the following...
TURN SCIENCE to 0% now or soon and keep it there till we finish both Libs...
Kyoto:
I would finish the settler First, the lib is allready whippable for 3 pop.
Start a Workboat, to be build to the max (43 hammers). (1 pop, 43 hammers)
Start a Lighthouse, to be build to half way (43 hammers). (2 pop, 43 hammers)
Start a Barracks, to be build to half way (43 hammers). (2 pop, 43 hammers)
Start an Archer, to max 28 or so (only 37 will overflow). (1 pop, 37 hammers)

43+43+43+37=166 hammers out of the 170 we need for the Great lib whip... Offcourse this is theoretical...
Add in another settler somewhere (at max happy cap for the Stone Island) and whip the lib ASAP.

Osaka:
Move the SE archer East and the Settler to that spot too. We allready know there is nothing barb near cause the Archer is on the hill. Now move the Archer SE to the yellow dot. If there is no immediate threat i.e. an Archer or Axe anywhere in sight of the yellow dot, move the settler too. And found on the next turn if still no Archer or Axe in sight...
Once settled we will have cleared 9 tiles (city) + 9 tiles (visible out side of our current culture) of fog, dropping the number of Barbs that will appear.

I think finish 1 more Archer in Osaka then start the Library and whip that too. Try and keep Osaka >= 3 pop tho, to work the Sheep and the 2 gems.

Mind the Barb Archer due east of Osaka.

Why do we have a medic archer? I understand.. Healing.. but I would have liked to see Shock promotion on that one....

Also I am NOT in favour of jumping the palace... We need those hammers elsewhere.... and getting the FP in Kyoto is going to be HELL.... I would much rather get the FP in Osaka...

eektor · Aug 13, 2006

namliaM said:
Eektor has quite a bit of catching up to do before playing....

Seriously. I got it and I think I better take notes before I play but I'll be playing tonight.

Edit: Oh how many turns are we playing? 10? 15?

Cosmichail · Aug 13, 2006

Kyoto:
I would finish the settler First, the lib is allready whippable for 3 pop.
Start a Workboat, to be build to the max (43 hammers). (1 pop, 43 hammers)
Start a Lighthouse, to be build to half way (43 hammers). (2 pop, 43 hammers)
Start a Barracks, to be build to half way (43 hammers). (2 pop, 43 hammers)
Start an Archer, to max 28 or so (only 37 will overflow). (1 pop, 37 hammers)

Ok I am having a stupid moment but does it work that way. You can actually save up overflow until you start TGL or does the overflow go to the next item?

Settling on the copper I think is a bad idea... Goal is Conquest, but in Isa's case.... We can keep some of it, in particular Holy cities and NON jungle ones...

I didn't mean to raze the cities but take them. In 11 turns we will know where the iron is anyways and then can strategize from there.

As to the TGL I had Osaka in mind for the gold/gems/cottages at some point. I think it would be just as good in Kyoto though with all that water commerce. (PS It would be cool if Kyoto was sitting on iron and some near Osaka of course)

I think finish 1 more Archer in Osaka then start the Library and whip that too. Try and keep Osaka >= 3 pop tho, to work the Sheep and the 2 gems.

If we want to keep the current research rate we have to keep it at 4. Working the gold provides 7 gold.

EDIT: I think I understand the whipping now the TGL would have to be the next item always for the overflow correct???

bobrath · Aug 13, 2006

Yeah, I don't think you can save up overflow. You'll be rush completing every other item in that list.

Eektor, play 20 and then we'll drop to 15/10.

eektor · Aug 14, 2006

Ok turns played the report will come in tomorrow.

I'll just say we still control Osaka.

namliaM · Aug 14, 2006

Cosmichail said:
Ok I am having a stupid moment but does it work that way. You can actually save up overflow until you start TGL or does the overflow go to the next item?

Well you can, and you cannot... It depends on how you look at it...
You whip something and then que it... this way the Whip overflow is perserved... There is a catch tho... If you que something for to long you start losing hamers (Or so I hear, never actually widnessed it.... I have tried to... I once had 30 hammers in a (not sure) granary was waiting for 1 hammer to drop, but it took to long... and just finished it...)
There is a second Catch tho... You need to finish things in order, as you cannot overflow more hammers than you are producing. So you have to think a little and Maybe do something like
#1, #2, TGL, #3, #4, TGL

Cosmichail said:
As to the TGL I had Osaka in mind for the gold/gems/cottages at some point. I think it would be just as good in Kyoto though with all that water commerce. (PS It would be cool if Kyoto was sitting on iron and some near Osaka of course)

TGL in Osaka... well I think we can use the hammers towards the Annihalation (spelling?) of Isa...

eektor said:
I'll just say we still control Osaka.

That sounds like no good... :sad:

eektor · Aug 14, 2006

Turn 0: 700 BC
I did some MM in Osaka. Took the worker off the grassland forest and oasis and put them on the two mined gems. IW is now in 11 turns and there is a +1 gpt. Library will be whipped in Kyoto soon so I dropped research to 0%

Turn 1: 685 BC
Promoted the weakened archer to Combat 1 (2.3) and moved it into the forest to meet the barb archer.
Worker started roading to new city site (yellow dot)

Turn 2: 670 BC
Archer won!
Whipped the library in Kyoto. :whipped:

Raised the slider to 100% science and will be able to keep it there for 6 turns.

Turn 3: 655 BC
IW in 7 turn
Kyoto switched to archer to send unit with settler to colonize Isla de Vaca (Cow Island)

Turn 4: 640 BC
Kyoto builds archer and switched to lighthouse to let the city grow a bit.

Turn 5: 625 BC
Archer on yellow dot sees a barb archer.

Turn 6: 610 BC
Archer wins.
Osaka builds archer and starts building another one.
Crap another barb warrior appears near the weakened archer. (With 10% combat 1 10% fortified, 50 % forest defense at 1.5 strength and warrior has to cross a river, I decide to stay put.)

Turn 7: 595 BC
Archer wins again!
With two archers over there, I move the settler to yellow dot.

Turn 8: 580 BC
The archer near Osaka wins again.
Spain approaches our yellow dot city with two archers and a settler.

Tis a shame because Tokyo was founded and set to build an archer.
Worker is building a pasture on the horse

Turn 9: 565 BC
Merit Ptah Born IAFL

Turn 10: 550 BC
One of our archers has a 98.1% to win against an incoming warrior. I ordered the attack and the archer won. (so help me if he didnt )

Turn 11: 535 BC
IW discovered. We are in the Classical Age.
We got iron in the BFC of Osaka!
Changed to CoL (26 turns)
Osaka built Archer, switched to library.

Turn 12: 520 BC
Crap an axeman appear near Osaka.
Switched Osaka to producing a chariot.

Turn 13: 505 BC

Turn 14: 490 BC

Turn 15: 475 BC
Archer beat the barb axe!! :worship:

RNGod!

Turn 16: 460 BC
Another axeman appears.

Turn 17: 445 BC
Axeman moved away good good.
Whipped lighthouse in Kyoto

Turn 18: 430 BC
Osaka built a Chariot and continues with the library.
Tokyo builds an archer and changes to barracks.
Kyoto builds lighthouse continues with settler.

Turn 19: 415 BC

Turn 20: 400 BC

After turn comments:

Ok I :smoke:

up the build order and whipping schedule with Kyoto. It has one extra pop and I just whipped it. I was paying attention to much to the barbs on the other continent, I think.

Once we get the iron mined and roaded up we should do fine against the barbs.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Black_SG002_BC0400_01.Civ4SavedGame

Spoiler :

bobrath · Aug 14, 2006

Good stuff Eektor. I assume the iron is 2W of Osaka... at least I think that's what I see.

Great job on getting the second city out in time. Where did Izzy send that settler pair? (ie is our backyard still Spainish free?) If so, we need to start thinking about pushing out our fog busting to the southwest asap. Izzy will not have to deal with them any longer (unless she's got a huge northern backyard) and that means she'll be able to outbuild/tech us very soon while we waste hammers on barb defense. The chariots will be a great help.

Cow island... I'm for it, but not stone island yet. We should wait until we get optics to plop down there (imo).

I'll play in about 8 hours, so plenty of time for thoughts and suggestions.

eektor · Aug 14, 2006

The settler founded Toledo. I was really surprised because I thought they were going to cut in between our two cities and get the copper down south or just get a city somewhere there.

The iron is in the grass hill, which is two west of Osaka. The mine should be built soon by a worker.

Yeah I was going to send the archers out more to fog bust but then the axeman appeared and I decided we need to wait til we get some better units out. The good news is we got some archers to defend our new cities we will put up.

Cosmichail · Aug 14, 2006

Great stuff Eektor. Way to go.

Getting that third/fourth city happening is a big boost to us. Finding that iron too is a nice piece of luck and soon we can build sword/axes for Izzy to stop that spawning. Geez does that AI ever stop settling. What has she got now like 5 cities. What's easier taking some of her cities or settling more.

Also good too making sure we are working the gems too. I can't believe it makes that much difference in research.

@NamliaM

That whipping stuff makes my brain hurt. Seems like a exploit to me since AlanH mentioned that too in his thread and they are considering in future SGOTM to possibly not allow it.

I don't mind though if we can use it why not. I glad you are doing thinking out on that NamliaM but after reading Alan's thread I understand why overflow is better than direct whipping wonders since there is a 50% penalty. So the TGL goes in Kyoto which is fine by me. Osaka will be good for building soldiers and take out izzy but we should watch to see if she has iron in her fatcross (well she isn't fat but kind of cute, but a psycho chick) and make sure she don't get it hooked up any time soon including the copper. Swords/axes up against archers is much better. (maybe open borders and have some horsies scout her out and use later for pillaging if she starts to hook up iron/copper)

Personally I like the combo of swords/axes since swords seem to do better against heavy defenses with raider promotion. Nice too we are aggressive so our swords/axes should have combat automatically. That would allow us to pump out soldiers faster too.

Roster: (15 turns now according to our illustrious leader)

bobrath -- Black Leader -- UP --> Soldiers and courthouses??
namliaM -- on deck --> The official whipping expert
Cosmichail --> want Izzy's head on a stick for display for Toku's brother
Pigswill --> doesn't like cows, but they give millk/beef
LuvtoBuild --> Will he turn to the dark side?
eektor --> Got us the cities we badly need

bobrath · Aug 14, 2006

I think two cities won't be enough unless we get really lucky on the pillaging to wage a real war against Izzy. Hard part about the OB exploration of her lands is that we also open our backyard to even more settling and that makes the coming war tougher.

I figure we'll have to sneak a barracks build into Osaka sometime soon.

Cosmichail · Aug 14, 2006

Just looked at the save and we can settle that island but settling anymore without courthouses on the mainland will kill us. Our maintenance in Osaka/Tokyo is a whopping -22 gpt. Our science has dropped to 40% so that slows everything down a lot. GP is due three or four turns but now we have scientists in there it might change that but probably not.

After looking at the save it might be wise to get Tokyo to expand it's borders quick as possible and choke Izzy off from going in behind us. So I agree Bobrath that OB should be avoided for now. We need to deal with maintenance. COL is due in 18 turns which is way more than originally anticipated. Although expensive we might want to consider caste system at some point and load up scientist in Kyoto big time. (especially if we have TGL there but we need to speed up research first to get TGL) We probably could accomodate at some point with LH 4 or 5. Just an idea as caste is more expensive.

Also we do need those barracks too for the extra promotions. Izzy has three archers (one with CD1) in Toledo. Nice spot too ARGH. Maybe it will flip in the future if Osaka wins the culture game. (theaters are good for that)

Our number 1 priorty now for the mainland is courthouses. With the extra 11 gpt we can get our science up. As to Osaka I wouldn't whip until we have pop 5 at least since with 4 all mines are worked including sheep. I think it's at 5 now so we could whip library once 1 pop will do it.

One other question about all that whipping in Kyoto.

If we whip as outlined by NamliaM won't we have major problems with unhappiness. 4 whips x 15 turns = 60 turns of unhappiness or does it not work that way?

Izzy is pleased with us now so unlikely she will go psycho for a while. Toledo is confused so who knows she might switch and bingo hate us again. I have had that happen a few times with her.

EDIT: Looking back at my post re science path 1 we aren't that far off it's just we sped up the GP with the scientist so he will be ready way before COL is done.

bobrath · Aug 14, 2006

and I'm ok with the GP enjoying the sites until we use him for CS. If there is any left over unhappy, I'll hold off the whip until necessary.

Cosmichail · Aug 14, 2006

Yeah take him for a tour. It just means we will have a Great scientist that much earlier. So NamiliaM will have the opportunity to build the courthouses. If we haven't Mathemathics I think that's what the scientist will offer. I imagine though once we get alpha/lit likely have to take off scientist for the whipping frenzy. So what after that monarchy?? We should be able to get some low end techs from Izzy too without giving up alpha/IW.

eektor · Aug 14, 2006

Tokyo should be expanding soon.

I think we might want to bite the maintenance cost and get that third city up just to slow the spawning of the barbs. I would suggest waiting for at least CoL to make that 3rd city on the continent.

I put the scientist in Kyoto to speed up the research a bit. Maybe we should take them out to make sure we get the GP instead of a GS.

bobrath · Aug 14, 2006

GS's preferences:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy

So yeah, Math will be next up followed by Philosophy I think and then Paper... but I'm getting a bit deep into the pref list at that point.

For our GP, after CS is Lit (if we hold off on Masonry still as we can skip Monarchy) and then Music. I know... just being greedy cause the free FA would give us Drama (!).

namliaM · Aug 14, 2006

Good job Eektor, to bad tho about the Lighthouse whip... we could have saved that and instead used the extra pop to whip the settler.
I think we need to GO GO GO on that stone Island. True with Optics it will be better, but the food isnt changing I think. Whales get only 1 more food for them boats... 3 food without nets... we just fetch some more hammers and commerce.

It is with a Lighthouse allready a POWERHOUSE commerce city.... that will help us shortterm and help us more longterm, the earlier we get it...

Yes 4 whips means 4*15 turns of unhappy people... Even worse its 1 * 15 turns of 4 unhappy people if you whip in sequence.... But you can Whip and perserve by queing.... You dont have to finish what you whip, you can que it just like any old thing that you havent finished...

Cosmichail · Aug 14, 2006

I notice we almost have a settler in Kyoto but aren't we using him for the cow island with the clams. I am confused about GO GO GO for the stone island. It seems consensus doesn't really go with that me included. I did mention it as to point out if we want stone we have to settle on it to get it.

Ok on your analysis:

whales only give 2food 1coin 1happy without boat

with boat: 2food 1hammer 2coin 1happy (acc to civpedia)
correction:
3 food without nets NOT....but with Lighthouse

We would get more coin out of the clams one cow island. That one I can see great for commerce el sucko production but hey that's what the whip is for. As to Tokyo popping it's borders will be in 3 turns. So hopefully we can keep a choke on Izzy from settling behind us.

We do need courthouses before settling the next city as our main will go to -30 plus which will kill our science and might even end up loosing money. Currently research at 40% 1 gpt surplus. One more soldier and voila we are breaking even.

EDIT:

I know... just being greedy cause the free FA would give us Drama (!).

Only thing with theaters is without dyes they are only good for culture. They will give happiness only if the culture slider is at 10% minimal. I like the Free artist from music too and Drama is a good trading tech. For now Kyoto will be limited to 5 pop and our mainland cities will have a happy cap of 7 so we can hold off on monarchy. The only thing that will help Kyoto at this point is religion and/or monarchy. Getting the pop cap up in Kyoto would be good for a number of reasons. 1. commerce 2. scientist 3. whipping. So I do think monarchy should be considered at some point. Tokyo happy cap 6 until religion spreads.

SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Prince

Deity

Prince

Emperor

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Prince

Emperor

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Similar threads