SGOTM 02 - VQ Black
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Yeah play already. It's like 9:00 pm in Holland so he might still post tonight hopefully, as I am ready to play.
I'm trying to be the "good" leader and keep us on schedule AND (more importantly obviously) team VQ is not the fastest playing!!!!!namliaM
Deity
I had a very fun day at work today, pulling a 7 am thru 9 PM ! day ! 
I didnt even get lunch or diner... Let me get my thoughts together and read the past few posts...
I will play and post in 45 - 60 minutes...
I didnt even get lunch or diner... Let me get my thoughts together and read the past few posts... I will play and post in 45 - 60 minutes...
pigswill
fly (one day)
Real Life can be a Real Nuisance at times. We can always catch up a bit later. I guess we're at the point of a major swing in our strategy so once we're settled on a direction things will speed up.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Once NamliaM posts I will be playing and posting tonight EDT, unless the team wants to discuss it for a few days. (LOL)
EDIT: Hope you got something to eat Namliam and that's a long day. Geez when I worked in Holland you needed a permit to work overtime of any kind. (that was Hercules in Terneuzen) I guess things have changed there work all day and no breaky for food. Doesn't sound like the Holland I remember.
EDIT: Hope you got something to eat Namliam and that's a long day. Geez when I worked in Holland you needed a permit to work overtime of any kind. (that was Hercules in Terneuzen) I guess things have changed there work all day and no breaky for food. Doesn't sound like the Holland I remember.
namliaM
Deity
OK sorry about the hold up folks, but last night I thought getting my (our) thoughts down on CoR and SIC was more important than keeping the game moving...Most important thing: We now have a 6/2 Axeman...
Second: I was doing some workstuff in the background and froze my comp. Had to reload the autosave of 20AD and replay 2 turns... Nothing much happened tho.
Third: The Save
Four: Some screenies and more details...
We have revolted and are a Burocracy
I suggest we run 0% science untill we have Flipped the palace, this way we can run some max science in our new capitol which we calculated will be much more fruitfull than the original one. Losing some research now, picking up more later.
I scouted out all of spain and found where Madrid is... Note the [/b]COPPER[/b] there is one city missing (the one on our border) and that one settler that is moving south...
I also noticed that Isabella has allready got 2 shrines and she didnt found Judaism...
She also doesnt seem to have a lot of production power. Only Cordoba and Madrid can produce something substantial.
Meet Osaka, the Hindu Monastary is perfect for whiping once Osaka is the capitol. It will cost 1 pop and gain us 90 hammers.
Notice at 90% we are getting 30 Beakers, if we save up a little bit (0% science for 8 turns) and maybe even finish the Monastary before turning research back on... We will get a nice little boost of some Beakers.
Then again we may be missing out on some trades with Spain...
Kyoto has some whipping to do before it losses the 50% capitol bonus, gaining again some 90 Hammers. Tho I dont know if the Galley will do us much good.
If we still want the Great Lib in Kyoto? ( I dont think Beakers get 50% burocracy bonus, commerce does) The GP points would be joined to those allready present speeding GP along.
If we still want it, whip those 2 and QUE them behind a workboat again (or something usefull like Archer, settler?) untill we can overflow those hammers into TGL.
I have our galley out on Fog busting the SIC site.
Edo, it has 1 turn into the workboat. In 5 or 6 turns we can whip that boat to net one of the clams, the other claims will be got from the workboat to be produced from Kyoto.
Or as I am seeing at the moment, the workboat from Kyoto will finish in 9 turns... Let the workboat in Kyoto take the Nets?! and use the whip to get the Courthouse sooner....
Edit:
Spoiler SGOTM log :
namliaM
Deity
Permit? No, just some good oldfashioned SCHIJT TEGEN DE MUREN (S**t hitting the fan).Cosmichail said:
We just found a minor error somewhere that could potentialy cost a couple of hundred thousand euro to a cool million on a yearly basses... Nothing important
Now I go to bed, have a long day tomorrow telling the CEO this story....
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Read your post carefully about the science which I agree running 0% now will help us run 100% when Palace is built.
I am not sure about whipping in Osaka as it will take away the oasis and slow growth but will check it as I go along and if it's doesn't affect Osaka too much will whip.
As to Kyoto whip galley barracks and in 5 or 6 turns whip WB in Edo.
Understood and not playing right away as I do (even though I was joking about discussing it a for few days) want some input from other team members. SO probably play in 4 or 5 hours and hopefully gives some time for input from others since most of us are in NA. Pigswill/NamliaM are the only ones in Europe.
EDIT: about the TGL it still will yield us a lot more science in Osaka (with all that commerce) but in Kyoto we get the extra GP's from it. Personally I would rather see the science boost as the GP's eventually do take longer and longer to get.
I am not sure about whipping in Osaka as it will take away the oasis and slow growth but will check it as I go along and if it's doesn't affect Osaka too much will whip.
As to Kyoto whip galley barracks and in 5 or 6 turns whip WB in Edo.
Understood and not playing right away as I do (even though I was joking about discussing it a for few days) want some input from other team members. SO probably play in 4 or 5 hours and hopefully gives some time for input from others since most of us are in NA. Pigswill/NamliaM are the only ones in Europe.
EDIT: about the TGL it still will yield us a lot more science in Osaka (with all that commerce) but in Kyoto we get the extra GP's from it. Personally I would rather see the science boost as the GP's eventually do take longer and longer to get.
pigswill
fly (one day)
With eight turns till we move the palace its worth thinking about speeding up courthouse in Edo.
I do think its worth moving palace as ultimately I think Kyoto is a red herring; time will tell.
Soon be cranking up for war (hurrah!). Get rid of one nasty civilisation- no mercy- no quarter- unless we can get some tasty techs in exchange for a peace treaty ( bitter and cynical laugh).
The Ratpack are up to 800ad! The rats!!
I do think its worth moving palace as ultimately I think Kyoto is a red herring; time will tell.
Soon be cranking up for war (hurrah!). Get rid of one nasty civilisation- no mercy- no quarter- unless we can get some tasty techs in exchange for a peace treaty ( bitter and cynical laugh).
The Ratpack are up to 800ad! The rats!!
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
If I was sure I understood the whipping that was upcoming, I'd have better words... instead I'll trust cosmic et al to do us right.
I am very happy to see Izzy with only Archers. I won't quite say push over civ..., but it sure feels that way. Too bad she has copper right next to her capital, otherwise it would truly be a walk.
I am very happy to see Izzy with only Archers. I won't quite say push over civ..., but it sure feels that way. Too bad she has copper right next to her capital, otherwise it would truly be a walk.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Me too Bob. That's why I didn't go at it right away as I wanted to be sure I understood what and how NamliaM meant. Wrote it down so I have some notes whilst I play.
That's why I wanted to scout to see what she has and been doing. If she gets too close with settlers headng through our land I might close OB to slow her down but will see how it goes.
Now I am thinking we need to expand on mainland so war isn't doable right away. Getting that blue spot will give us another city that can produce soldiers somewhat. As to the TGL I am thinking it might be doable but a risk none the less. Since the turnset is only 15 turns I probably won't get that far anyways so Pigswill will have to see and of course team consensus.
That's why I wanted to scout to see what she has and been doing. If she gets too close with settlers headng through our land I might close OB to slow her down but will see how it goes.
Now I am thinking we need to expand on mainland so war isn't doable right away. Getting that blue spot will give us another city that can produce soldiers somewhat. As to the TGL I am thinking it might be doable but a risk none the less. Since the turnset is only 15 turns I probably won't get that far anyways so Pigswill will have to see and of course team consensus.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Turn 1
Go to 0% science.
Sword finished start another
Turn 2
Christianity is founded FIDL
Turn 3
Worker finishes mine at Tokyo
Turn 4
Moving the archer through Spanish territory and she really hasn't got much. We could take her soon.
Barcelona has only 1 archer garrisoned.
Turn 5
zzzzz
2 archers/settler/worker heading for our land
Turn 6
zzzzzz
Turn 7
Start chop for settler in Tokyo. (again whipping would hurt our ability to keep production there)
Turn 8
Archer takes out barb archer
Start settler in Tokyo (chopping)
Palace built income doubles move slider to 100% Alpha due in 4 turns
Turn 9
Whip courthouse in Edo (at pop 3 and main -12 so went for it and good suggestion by Pigswill)
I decide not to whip Osaka as Monastery with Buro/Palace only takes 3 turns now and dont want to loose oasis. (help growth/science and pop cap is now 8)
Turn 10
Edo finishes courthouse start WB (queued)
Kyoto finishes WB starving whip galley.
Turn 11
Running 100% science with -17 gpt loss only nice.
(wait till we get some cottages built)
Turn 12
Archer takes out barb Archer
Izzy wants to trade clams for gems decline. (We can always do it whenever we want but want to hold off on her happiness to slow her growth)
Osaka is running 70 beakers science at 100% -1 gpt main.
Osaka finishes Monastery start sword.
Chop at Tokyo will have settler ready in 7 turns.
No whip as we have tiles worked that we need for later war and growth ok but I dont think enough.
Turn 13
We get Alphabet and start literature (for TGL and HE)
Start another chop at Tokyo for settler.
Yuk Izzy will not trade doesnt want to give this technology away just yet. (has mathematics too which would be big help)
Turn 14
Start chop (maybe prechop)
Turn 15
Start moving swords to barb city (forgot should have done it sooner however we will need at least 3-4 swords/1 axe to take it. 50% defenses three archers no promotions)
2 swords on the way and 1 axe already there and another being built in Osaka which should be done soon.
Izzy still wont trade techs. DOH
Some Notes
We need to finish prechop in Tokyo and build another worker move them both to Osaka for building another mine as pop is at 7 now. Settler at Tokyo done in 4 turns and chop too so stop it at 3 and move worker to Osaka. If TGL is available still (my clock is off and I am not sure if we are in the window still) but we have 6 chops west of Osaka available. Would be much better with Math. With another mine in Osaka we will have a good production base for the TGL.
Now of course thats if the team wants to pursue it. I do and want to try as that extra science will move us faster along and with no civs to trade we should try to accelerate the process. Chopping the TGL will speed it up a lot and free Osaka for soldiers. Tokyo is has good production and should be able to build ample soldiers. The blue city although just one iron mine could also aid in that dept. I personally would like another production city but blue city will be good for health/prod/commerce with clams/iron.
That makes Pigswill up.
NamliaM I forgot to whip the barracks but its done in 1 turn now and personally I feel with the amount of commerce/science in Osaka TGL should go there. What we could build in Kyoto is Nat. Epic for a GP farm eventually. We are limited there with only 4 pop now and main for both island cities is -5 each.
Save
Go to 0% science.
Sword finished start another
Turn 2
Christianity is founded FIDL
Turn 3
Worker finishes mine at Tokyo
Turn 4
Moving the archer through Spanish territory and she really hasn't got much. We could take her soon.
Barcelona has only 1 archer garrisoned.
Turn 5
zzzzz
2 archers/settler/worker heading for our land
Turn 6
zzzzzz
Turn 7
Start chop for settler in Tokyo. (again whipping would hurt our ability to keep production there)
Turn 8
Archer takes out barb archer
Start settler in Tokyo (chopping)
Palace built income doubles move slider to 100% Alpha due in 4 turns
Turn 9
Whip courthouse in Edo (at pop 3 and main -12 so went for it and good suggestion by Pigswill)
I decide not to whip Osaka as Monastery with Buro/Palace only takes 3 turns now and dont want to loose oasis. (help growth/science and pop cap is now 8)
Turn 10
Edo finishes courthouse start WB (queued)
Kyoto finishes WB starving whip galley.
Turn 11
Running 100% science with -17 gpt loss only nice.
(wait till we get some cottages built)
Turn 12
Archer takes out barb Archer
Izzy wants to trade clams for gems decline. (We can always do it whenever we want but want to hold off on her happiness to slow her growth)
Osaka is running 70 beakers science at 100% -1 gpt main.
Osaka finishes Monastery start sword.
Chop at Tokyo will have settler ready in 7 turns.
No whip as we have tiles worked that we need for later war and growth ok but I dont think enough.
Turn 13
We get Alphabet and start literature (for TGL and HE)
Start another chop at Tokyo for settler.
Yuk Izzy will not trade doesnt want to give this technology away just yet. (has mathematics too which would be big help)
Turn 14
Start chop (maybe prechop)
Turn 15
Start moving swords to barb city (forgot should have done it sooner however we will need at least 3-4 swords/1 axe to take it. 50% defenses three archers no promotions)
2 swords on the way and 1 axe already there and another being built in Osaka which should be done soon.
Izzy still wont trade techs. DOH
Some Notes
We need to finish prechop in Tokyo and build another worker move them both to Osaka for building another mine as pop is at 7 now. Settler at Tokyo done in 4 turns and chop too so stop it at 3 and move worker to Osaka. If TGL is available still (my clock is off and I am not sure if we are in the window still) but we have 6 chops west of Osaka available. Would be much better with Math. With another mine in Osaka we will have a good production base for the TGL.
Now of course thats if the team wants to pursue it. I do and want to try as that extra science will move us faster along and with no civs to trade we should try to accelerate the process. Chopping the TGL will speed it up a lot and free Osaka for soldiers. Tokyo is has good production and should be able to build ample soldiers. The blue city although just one iron mine could also aid in that dept. I personally would like another production city but blue city will be good for health/prod/commerce with clams/iron.
That makes Pigswill up.
NamliaM I forgot to whip the barracks but its done in 1 turn now and personally I feel with the amount of commerce/science in Osaka TGL should go there. What we could build in Kyoto is Nat. Epic for a GP farm eventually. We are limited there with only 4 pop now and main for both island cities is -5 each.
Spoiler :
Save
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Roster: (15 turns )
bobrath -- Black Leader -- --> keeping the game moving
namliaM -- just played --> The official whipping expert (makes my brain hurt)
Cosmichail --> just played --> Thinks Izzy is cute but still head on a stick
Pigswill --> UP --> Get us a couple cities settler and barb.
LuvtoBuild -->on deck--> Will he turn to the dark side? (Darth Build)
Eektor --> Offered the brilliant idea of moving the palace
bobrath -- Black Leader -- --> keeping the game moving
namliaM -- just played --> The official whipping expert (makes my brain hurt)
Cosmichail --> just played --> Thinks Izzy is cute but still head on a stick
Pigswill --> UP --> Get us a couple cities settler and barb.
LuvtoBuild -->on deck--> Will he turn to the dark side? (Darth Build)
Eektor --> Offered the brilliant idea of moving the palace
namliaM
Deity
But only if we get her soon, if we wait to long....Cosmichail said:
Allready Cordoba and Barcalona are at 50% bonus. With 25% fortification bonus and natural City defence bonus 50% (not counting any promotions) these archers are allready 225% * 3 = 6.75
A sword is only 6 with CR1 thats 30% city attack bonus. Making the archer 195% or 5.85. TThat would mean that a CR1 Sword has just about 55% chance of winning? Adding to that CD1 or Combat1 and chances will drop below 50%
I would expect about 1 in 2 loss when fighting those cities, with a bad role or 2 we may end up losing 2 winning 1.If we come a little to late we will be facing LBs. Screw settlers, start units. Que a few if possible (leave 1 turn on the sword and start an Axe, leave 1 que on it and start a spear). IIRC she has Horses too (not sure tho) if she does, we can use a spear or 2 just in case we encounter a HA or 2...
Hmz, well guess we can grow a little... (a lot maybe)
Hmz, this is really a shame. If we had whipped the galley while still a capitol (same for the barracks) we would have got 90 hammers bonus
Pre chop them forests and research Math next, we need that anyway for
1) Construction and Cats
2) Currency
-5, well thats better than I calculated with... Now I wish I had build SIC
Lets just settle 1 more city, take that barb city. Then go after Spain? Like I said, if we wait to long.... and with the addition of spain we will have 6 or 7 more cities. Thats enough for now I guess...
Maybe we want to fog up the south again for easy XP from generated barbs? To make CR2 Axe' and Swords?
Edit: I think Ratpack took out Spain by 1000AD. Question about Great lib... How valuable is it really? I think we want to go to MT and Astronomy (beeline for Liberalism and Astronomy as Freebee?) and rule the world....
pigswill
fly (one day)
Got it. ok so go for barb city (50%+50defence=str6 archers, yum) and settle ironclam. Go for swords. Prechop for GL but not start it. Also going to need a workboat for ironclam.
We needs maths for chopping (and a prereq for construction); do we research it or try to extort it from Bella? Crappy city north of Osaka (Toledo?). Do we keep it or raze it? (which would seriously annoy Bella).
I guess questions re war tactics won't come up in my turnset. Research wise I'd go for literature first; at least we could start on national epic in Kyoto. Do I go for maths or leave it is the question I'm not sure about. I think I'll wait a few hours for advice, play this evening (european time).
We needs maths for chopping (and a prereq for construction); do we research it or try to extort it from Bella? Crappy city north of Osaka (Toledo?). Do we keep it or raze it? (which would seriously annoy Bella).
I guess questions re war tactics won't come up in my turnset. Research wise I'd go for literature first; at least we could start on national epic in Kyoto. Do I go for maths or leave it is the question I'm not sure about. I think I'll wait a few hours for advice, play this evening (european time).
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
So what was the intention there? You had the WB at 9 turns so it would have not finished before palace was gone. Was I to just before palace start the galley whip and get the 90 hammers to do what speed up the barracks. It wouldn't have made much difference overall. (The TGL was a ways off having gone 0% science which in retrospect I think we might have lost 4 turns on alpha there but gained some on lit.) Also the pop was too low to do any more whipping there so again I don't understand what the intent was. To hold off on the palace rebuild or move galley up whip and move barracks up and whip it which with the small population would have caused unhappy making it impossible to work anything. (even with palace)
As to TGL it only provides two scientist and with rice worked in Osaka we can put up our own. But here's something to consider.
Osaka has now at 100% 70 beakers science with two more scientists 78
That includes consideration for the lib/mona/commerce which with palace is +50%. Now add a university goes to 97 (without scientists from GL yields 87)add observatory goes to 121 (without scientist from GL yields 108) and then oxford x 100% = 240 with/without 216 So first without 10 then 13 then 24
That's per turn so is it worth it? You tell me. I think it is. Consider also adding two more scientist (four total) and then you have (start from university) 97 + (6*10%*50% = 9.90 so lets say 10 beakers) = 107
With observatory 133 and with Oxford 266.
Plus getting GS fairly often will help our research. This isn't even considering the cottages yet or other tiles that will be worked. So those two scientist really can make a difference in the long run with the multipliers. We are basically alone right now until astronomy. Izzy won't trade but maybe later. If any other civs are together somewhere they will jump ahead quite a bit from the trading.
By maxing our science we can keep up until we meet them. I am sure Izzy will trade sooner or later. The GPP points will be 6 only but with rice Osaka could hold another two making that 12.
TGL is 350 hammers which with chops (with math) could be done in less than 10 turns. We have a lot of forest west of Osaka which isn't the fat cross and grass lands.
So next let's research Math and chop the TGL if everybody sees what it will do in the long run. I am ok with letting it go and just go to war but those two scientist until Sci Method can make a difference and Osaka is pretty healthy commerce wise and should yield down the road quite a bit of science. With our current research (of course we can't stay at 100% but will be able to sustain at least 80% right now) getting to Metal Casting/machinery isn't that far away now.
As to war. We those high defenses we would need a lot of swords/axes. By the time TGL is done from chopping we would find ourselves that much quicker to construction and Osaka will pop out soldiers very fast. Maybe even considering putting the HE there but I wouldn't for two reasons.
1. Wall street/Oxford (prime commerce city/prime science city)
Tokyo isn't bad production wise and we could put HE there and get soldiers faster from there. That barb city doesn't look like a very good production city overall although I have to look at the save again.
So that's what I think and settler will be due in 4 turns and we will need some time to take that barb city. We will have in 1 turn 3 swords/1 axe which might not be enough to take barb city. If we were to attack with swords/axes alone it's usually done a long time ago. But we couldn't do squat with that huge amount maintenance until now. Izzy isn't progressing that fast science wise. We have two huge techs over her CS/Alpha and we probably could research argi/pottery/masonry/math pretty quick on our own but of course let's try to get it from her. Thing is do we want to give her CS right now. I would rather trade alpha since there is no one else there but we can't since it's not available to her.
Another question: Do we want to deal with jungle cities right now. (we have one worker????) Those cities will never grow until we get a mountainload of workers. We have land in our backyard much more productive and look at the wheat and sheep too which will be better than conquering a jungle city. Her copper city isn't that hot either as it's mostly desert. The only city I really like is Barcelona (just for the shrine and Madrid) where she has horses/copper. Oh and Seville but I think's part of that is in jungle but I would have to check again.
Summary:
1. We need workers
2. We would need a lot of sword/axes but less with cats
(so construction would be better to have first)
(at least 5/6 swords 3 spears/3 axes and/or chariots and need more for garrisoning once we take a city)
3. Settle blue spot/take barb city
4. To build TGL or not but with chops might be very fast whilst researching math/construction and hopefully get some trades from Izzy.
5. After that pump out swords/cats in Osaka (best production city)
in the mean time while Osaka builds TGL Tokyo can build more.
As to Ratpack taking out Spain at 1000 ad well that's good but it doesn't mean much to me. I would rather get our shortlist accomplished as above and then go for her and find ourselves having the ability to build caravels much sooner to find the other civs and that rotten guy who killed Toku's brother. LOL (from what I can tell but not sure I think she's a ways from Feudalism too)
(having a sleepless night but going to bed and try to get some sleep)
@Pigswill (while I am typing this I see you posted and lit is only 2 turns away and math/construction shouldn't take long either. Izzy techs are redded out and she's pleased so we can't extort/ask for them. I also think Toledo should be razed too)
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
FYI:
We have about 10 turns left on 100% science
math at this rate will take 5 turns
Construction at this rate will take 9 turns (but will have to drop to 80% before this is finished so more like 10, 11 turns)
After that drop to 80% (break even)
Pottery at this rate will take 2 turns
Agriculture at this rate will take 2 turns
See how much 8 beakers would help during this era.
MC/Machinery at 80% rate (now not considering more cities)
MC -- > 12 turns
Machinery -- > 22 turns
Not that long ago it was 85 turns (add TGL/pottery/cottages and that will change even for the better/as well as when other civs discover the techs.)
We have about 10 turns left on 100% science
math at this rate will take 5 turns
Construction at this rate will take 9 turns (but will have to drop to 80% before this is finished so more like 10, 11 turns)
After that drop to 80% (break even)
Pottery at this rate will take 2 turns
Agriculture at this rate will take 2 turns
See how much 8 beakers would help during this era.
MC/Machinery at 80% rate (now not considering more cities)
MC -- > 12 turns
Machinery -- > 22 turns
Not that long ago it was 85 turns (add TGL/pottery/cottages and that will change even for the better/as well as when other civs discover the techs.)
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