SGOTM 02 - VQ Red

[Maquis]

Ok, I played the first few turns, up to 3610.

We can't go very far to the west... (I assume the admins did this on purpose)

However, there is a city spot that is loaded...

Two gems and gold, as well as a few flood plains to cottage. We can settle on the spot, which is a plains hill... extra hammer, and extra defense. (and yes, that is Isabella's scout just to the south)

Here's the map of everything to the west:

I'll give a couple hours for discussion, but I think that we should settle here. The commerce from this city can support another city or two...

 

[Scowler]

Bloody hell! That's just sick! And look what else we pick up once the borders expand! I wonder what the catch is...

EDIT: Hmm... the catch is that while they can be worked as tiles, none of those resources will be connected to the capital.

 

[Maquis]

none of those resources will be connected to the capital.

Nope, not unless we move the palace... (or Astronomy)

But that does bring up a good question... do resources have to be connected to the Capital in order for the cities to share the resources? Or is it enough for the cities be connected to each other?

 

[Scowler]

Why is it so difficult to find stuff in the manual? - and as for the strategy guide... But it may well need to be linked to the capital, which would effectively screw us militarily unless we shift the palace.

Answer: No, I'm wrong, it doesn't need to be linked to the capital (whew!).

 

[Krockel]

That's what I call science boost location.
To farm FP and work as many mines as possible as fast as possible is my suggestion. 3 gem/gold mine = 3*8 = 24 gold per turn! Screw maintenance, I think we should settle as fast as possible and get out a worker to improve and then build archers for defense, we will need a lot of archers to defend so many resource tiles.

Another good thing is that we're not so defendent of research from Kyoto. So we can build Stonehenge there a´la Scowler there! If we shouldn't have had a so good research boosting location I believe that getting Stonehenge while only working 2 sea tiles wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Codeman]

i agree, very nice indeed. i think everyone votes settle.

questions/thoughts later.

 

[armstrong]

Wow. Two (non jungle!) gems. Gold on a grass hill. River Sheep. Two Oases. Two flood plains. And it's on a plains hill. And gets fresh water from the oasis. Settle it!

Note that since the gems are non jungle, and the grassland gold, this is a huge gift from the designer... a city like this doesn't occur naturally.

We have room to build (at least) two more good cities at the western edge of the continent - I see clam-wheat and fish-sheep. This would let us move the palace and stop the barb flow from the west. Our capital will have pretty good production to build the palace. With 3 metals and three 2C food tiles, we're going to be fine on commerce.

It looks like Clam-Wheat could get some decent production. How about a beeline to the Great Lighthouse in that city, while town #1 builds palace & #2 builds military? If we're aiming to win this thing, it will never go obsolete, as our goal is fast conquest.

As for the capital connection, I don't know. I know that if a city has access to a resource, it can use it itself - I just don't know if you can connect the routes without the capital being a part. However, I think we should just move the Palace asap anyway. I'll give it a test right now.

 

[GreyFox]

Pretty good, we have no choice but to settle, can't wonder any further as barbs are going to appear soon, and we need defenders real fast. But be careful, the AI are agressive in nature, so don't settle befor eyou can move the warrior back to guard the city. We don't want this game to be reduced to a OCC until Astronomy

Anyone has any thoughts on where to settle? Settling on where the settler is in the screenshot seems to be good. We need te culture expansion fast if we are going to reap the advantage of the site. We need food to grow, and the flood plains provides it. Initial build should be a worker, then scout, then archer.

If we go for stonehedge, then obelisk is not needed. Else, we need an obelisk too.

--

 

[Krockel]

Anyone has any thoughts on where to settle? Settling on where the settler is in the screenshot seems to be good. We need te culture expansion fast if we are going to reap the advantage of the site. We need food to grow, and the flood plains provides it. Initial build should be a worker, then scout, then archer.

If we go for stonehedge, then obelisk is not needed. Else, we need an obelisk too.
--

I think we should settle in place concerning both short- and longterm.

Even if we build Stonehenge in Kyoto it's not out of the question to build an obelisk in Osaka before that.

It is worth it to build scouts on Monarch raging barbs? I think warrior, obelisk or barrack is a better choice for first build.

 

[GreyFox]

Ah ... yeah, right. No scouts. Me :smoked: Obelisk might be better, and once we hit size 2, switch to worker, we need the commerce form gold and gems fast to counter the maintenance.

--

 

[Maquis]

So it sounds like everyone's in agreement, settle in place. The only question I still have is, how soon? There are 7 turns left on Archery; as soon as we settle, that number will obviously go up. Do we want to get Archery done first (for an Archer defense) or should we settle now, build Oblesk and delay the archer? With the Warrior, and hill defense, we should be able to fend off barb warriors and archers...

Before we get a worker going, I would also like to have an archer for field defense. We can't afford the gold (or gem) mine to be pillaged...

 

[dot]

"It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!"

The official lurker reporting for duty ...

1. On moving the palace:
   Yes, you'll need three cities. And this will most probably bring up some -21gpt. But moving it seems to be important. Since it'll be of hardly any use in Kyoto ("no use" does sound so harsh). But I will take care of this in my announced idea. This is not my idea.
   .
2. On where to settle:
   Maquis, could you post the interim-save to allow us a look at the save and the map?
   .
3. On connection of ressources:
   

   Answer: No, I'm wrong, it doesn't need to be linked to the capital (whew!).

   I've never met anything that would contradict that. AFAIK the capital has not to be included in the trade network.
   

   If we have the 100% bonus material for the wonder, we get 69 hammers every two turns.

   Yes Sir. After having researched astronomy.
   .
4. On the henge:
   

   In my opinion, getting the free obelisk more than made up for the turns in which the city remained unfounded, producing nothing.

   If I got you right here, Scowler, I'd definitely vote for getting the henge in Kyoto.
   If we'd go for the oracle to maybe get us some religion we'd be absolutely screwed if Kyoto would be the Holy City. Don't get me wrong here - I absolutely dig having the oracle. But what I found even more helpful is having expanding cultural borders - simply because any enemy would have to slow down as soon as he enters them. They're some strong defence! And with agressive AI and raging barbs on monarch we might need it! --- BTW I did also check whether the henge is applying obelisks to cities that are founded after the wonder has been build. And it does.
   .
5. On my announced idea:
   So we do have raging barbs. I know that some of the players on this team have encountered them. And as the old Fox has pointed out they only spawn in the fog. In the fog is also exactly where they ... settle. And this might save us some turns for building settlers.
   • Do settle and build up city #2 (Osaka) for receiving the palace. After building some defence go for a settler! The city site as discussed above will most probably be able to maintain another city without too much maintenance punishment.
   • I'd say try to settle city #3 (Tokyo) asap. Use Tokyo as the military production site. From Maquis map I could only guess - but the wheat/sheep site might make up for a proper production city. (The question is where Isabella lives/came from, cause we would want to allow the barbs to grow some cities. Therefore we'd have to cut her off!)
   • Get some military up for defence of our workers and improvements. Thereby they should be able to gather some XP. So we should be able to raise an army that is experienced.
   • When we have grown enough and do have enough military >> Conquer one barb city. Might be AI, too. It doesn't really matter.
   • Immediately go for the palace in Osaka while transforming the captured city into another military production site!

Welcome to - what might be - the start of a huge conquest!

Please criticise all that there is to receive and deserve your critics! Positive and negative!

Regards, .

------- What I considered rather funny ... ------- -------

Our capital will have pretty good production to build the palace.

 

[Codeman]

i think we should hold off on settling until archery is done. a weak military could kill us, and i seem to be missing the benefits of going ahead and settling. we lose research, money, and forced to build warriors when we know in a few turns they will be almost useless.

 

[Codeman]

(The question is where Isabella lives/came from, cause we would want to allow the barbs to grow some cities. Therefore we'd have to cut her off!)

*Get some military up for defence of our workers and improvements. Thereby they should be able to gather some XP. So we should be able to raise an army that is experienced.

*When we have grown enough and do have enough military >> Conquer one barb city. Might be AI, too. It doesn't really matter.

i've done this a little in my games (let the barbs build a city, then take it for my own). what i've found is the AI rushes for the city as soon as it appears. if i take the city before it grows to size 2 it is destroyed. so i have had to have troops ready just for this purpose, some cont scouting to locate the city when it pops up, then park troops outside it so i can take it before AI and/or as soon as it grows to size 2.

just my exp with barb cities.

 

[armstrong]

Heh, as some of you noticed I keep talking about the "capital" while referring to both Kyoto and the "new" one

Well, there are several reasons to settle immediately:

1. We can start building military units faster.
2. We can work the gem mine faster.

Maquis mentioned getting an archer before a worker. I think it's better to switch research immediately to Mining and build a worker first thing in the New Capital (NC.) We have enough time to get a mine built before they come pillaging us... let's look at a time table. I'll use normal time scale, though everything should scale about the same:

Since NC is on a plains hill, it will take 12 turns to build a worker. We can work the oasis for 5 turns while the mine is built (10 hammers on archer) then the gem mine for 5 turns (15 hammers on archer.) So, we get our first archer 22 turns after we found NC. On normal speed, that's 880 years - so as long as we settle NC by 3680, we'll have our archer by 2800 ready to fight barbs.

Edit: I was assuming (possibly wrongly) that we'd have both Mining & Archery done when the worker finishes. If that's not the case (i.e., we still have a couple of turns left on Archery) we can always build a warrior to help protect the city/mine. Militarily, I think this is stronger since it will get us BW and IW earlier to reveal the resources and get slavery.

If we build an archer first, we end up in nearly the identical situation, except we lose out on at least 70 commerce.

Border expansion in the NC would be nice, but it's not completely critical. Even without a border pop, we can work the oasis, gems, gold hill, and grass hill at size 4 for the neighborhood of 16 commerce and 8 hammers. While it would be nice to help shoo away the barbs, hopefully we can get some fogburners to the E and SE relatively early on.

As for dot's "announced idea" - I think it sounds sound. Except I'd argue we shouldn't wait too long for a barb city to build/grow. If we're ready to expand, we should go for it and not wait for a good target to come into view. But with the barbs out in force, we probably won't need to worry about it

 

[dot]

@Codeman:
I've found that the AI will rush towards any barb city with size two, too. What I've been thinking of, is to grow some barb cities in our backyard, kind of. Like to the west - given that Isa has come from the east.

@armstrong:
I absolutely concur. Don't wait too long to expand.

Regards, .

 

[Maquis]

Ok, I finished my turnset. I think I played 20... I guess I kind of lost count. I ended just as the workboat finished.

I founded Osaka in place. Started on the worker first. We added 2 turns onto Archery, not too bad. Next up is Mining, and it will finish one turn before the worker. Get the worker out, and start growing and working the gold/gems.

Ok, one other thing, the admins are really teasing us... just to the north of Kyoto:

A workboat can get there, but I don't think a galley can? There is ocean in between, although it is in our cultural border... Anyone want to build another test?

One thing I also thought of, to boost Kyoto's produciton early on, hire CITIZENS for one hammer/turn. This will be helpful until we get slavery. (We'll have plenty of food with the fishes...)

Here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_BC3310_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[GreyFox]

I believe I'm up. I'll look at the save a bit and maybe post some plans.

No need to build a test game, I am 100% sure galleys can reach the two islands. But for what purpose? Are we going to settle there? Damned, its the same situation the other way round. If we settle there, and move our palace to Osaka, the maintenance cost is going to cripple us!

--

 

[armstrong]

Looks like a good start! About the land to the north - I guess you could tell there was land there from the starting screen shot because the ocean is more lightly colored (reminds me of the Gulf of Mexico.) I didn't notice until now, though... maybe that's why some threads have 5 pages and we only have 4! The question is - is anyone on that land? Does it connect to the mainland in any way (if it's navigable via work boat, we can establish traderoutes with the mainland with only Sailing.) It's absolutely reachable via galley via cultural borders.

It's great that Mining finishes 1 turn before the worker, that should be perfect. I don't think we'll have too much trouble with barbs. Lots of carnage, but it should be mostly on their side. Who knows, though, I've won 2 <1% fights today... I should have bought a lottery ticket instead!

Even if our distance maintence is -7 gpt, as long as we work a gem or gold for each city we found, our research won't tank, so we should be fine while we wait to build the new Palace. And when the palace does move, that extra 14 gpt will sure be nice Btw, did you notice the distance cost is 8gpt at our current city? We must have moved farther from the capital - someone screwed up their tile counts! I think Kyoto is closer to the east than the west. But going further west might wrap around and reduce the cost...

If any of the other SGOTM folks didn't scout around a bit with their first settler (I imagine most did, though) they'd be in serious trouble. I can't imagine pulling this off without the three gold/gem mines.

En lieu of hiring citizens, how about we just head for BW early, maybe right after Mining or Mysticism to top off the wb? We're going to need metal sooner than later if we want to conquest. I'd rather have the 2C towards learning how to whip & cultivate copper... but if we're working on the 'henge, every bit does help. Whipping 1 pop every 10 turns for a warrior (and then disbanding it) will give us 15 hammers every 10 turns, a better use of the people than a single citizen.

Isabella founded Buddhism - that will be nice, a free shrine. Do we have any idea how close she is to us yet? (how many turns did you explore before the scout hit?) It'd be nice to know if she's in axer range or not.

Finally, after we build some archers to protect Osaka & her mines, where should we settle? Clam-Wheat?

ps. Could any SGOTM1 vet give me a link or instructions on how to upload the saves/what not to do? When my turn comes, I don't want to do something stupid and spoil the game.

pps. on the barb cities, I was just playing a Monarch game where the barbs had a city on my continent (that I shared with 4 other civs) that wasn't conquered until after I got Liberalism. Sometimes they go for them, sometimes they don't... what really irks me is when the other civs raze a size 1 city that I want to capture.

 

[armstrong]

Actually, for a second city spot, how about 1s of the wheat? It's not coastal, but it snares river wheat, river sheep, 6 other river tiles, and 3 hills. It's also a perfect "snake" (see VQ07) and gives us plenty of room to build a clam-fish-floodplain city & a sheep-fish city, too. At size 4, it can work wheat, grass hill and two plains hills for 12 hammers a turn, pretty good for an early military city. And it can use the sheep to grow/work the forested plains.