SGOTM 02 - VQ Red

[armstrong]

In summary,
I suggest that we start working towards having Globe Theatre in Kyoto, while taking the entire continent of Osaka. That will ensure we tech on par with AIs.
When Globe is available, then we re-evaluate the possibility of taking on one of the AI near Kyoto.

Yeah, I was assuming we'd continue to finish off Isabella and get control of that continent. The reason to start with the islands is just to get a head start on the other continent. Remember, our goal is fast conquest.

Leaving the palace in Kyoto might make sense if it's our main military city. It can easily regrow 1 pop/turn with all that food. That means, with forge + he + bureacracy, it can whip 44 * 2.75 = 121 (!) hammers/turn, and it can ferry them across with 3 or so cheap galleys, as opposed to having to build a bunch of galleons for really long ocean voyages. Even with just Bureacracy, it's looking at 66 hammers/whip, enough to whip a cat a turn.

Bureaucracy will also speed up building Globe & HE there. It's not that far off if we research Drama next since theatres are so dirt cheap, then move up to Bureaucracy (as we shouldn't need Samurai to finish off Isabella.) The problem is we'll get no respite from distance maintenance on the other continent until we have the 8 cities necessary to build FP (and the 6 courthouses.) Likewise, we'll also lose the commerce benefits of those 3 metals and cottages... so I don't know which route I prefer.

While the commerce is nice, the only techs we really need to get up to at this point is Chemistry (and maybe Astronomy) before the AI gets Rifling - we don't need to be tech leader.

 

[Maquis]

A lot going on this turnset. Let's hope I don't have too many moments...

Turn 1: Alpha in. Time to dial up some AI's for some trades.
Trade Alpha to Mansa for Polythesim + all his gold.
Trade Bismark CoL + 50G for Calendar.
Our GS learns Philosophy for us.

Looking around, Santiago and Barcelona are both in a bit of a bind, as they need a border pop. Well, I just took away our ability ot build a Oblesk. Then it's plan B. I revolt to Caste System. An Artist is ordered up in both Barc and Santago.

Turn 2: With Philosophy available to trade around, I trade it to Bismark for Monotheism, Monarchy, HBR, and 70G gold.

Our cats at Madrid have eliminated the defenses. I send in the troops. It goes something like this:

Sword def Archer
Sword def Archer
Axe def Chariot
Axe def Spear
Sword def Spear

Madrid captured with no losses.

Turn 3: Trade Philosophy to Mansa for Theology.

Turn 4: Borders pop in both Santago and Barcelona. I re-work the tiles, and both are growing now.

Turn 8: Madrid comes out of revolt.

So here's my big of the turnset. I stayed in Caste for Madrid to come out of revolt. I forgot that it gets the culture from being the holy city of our state religion. So I wasted a couple turns longer than I had to to revolt.

Anyways, I bite the bullet and change 3 civics: Representation (from Pyramids ), Slavery, and Thocracy. This will be 3 turns of Anarchy.

Turn 11: With the defenses down, the battle of Seville begins:

Cat suicides and is lost.
Cat suicides and wins! vs axe
Axe def Archer
Spear def Chariot

Hopefully no one objects, but I razed Seville. It has nothing useful, as we already have stone and Sugar available elsewhere. No sense in taking on the maintenance costs.

Turn 15: Last turn, ok... let's try one more attack, this time on Cordoba:

Sword def Archer
Sword def Spear
Spear def Chariot

(Lost the screenshot here, but I ended up keeping Cordoba.)

Here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_AD1025_01.Civ4SavedGame


I'll upload some thougts in a little while.

 

[Maquis]

OK, a few notes:

Representation has helped our happiness problem in several cities. I have turned off avoid growth, as our cities can grow again.

I didn't not whip too many places, as I spent quite a few turns in Caste System. There should be a few whip opprotunities in some cities.

I did not start building the Palace in Osaka yet. I was still pumping out some military. Maybe GreyFox will start it after the current build is done. I believe it is only 15 turns or so build time. Also, we have enough Courthouses now to build the FP. Obviously we need to move the Palace first.

**Another thought** do we want to build FP on one of the other islands? Edo perhaps? (Edo produces more hammers than Kyoto, and has some growth potential wth multiple foods)

I forgot to include in my some more tech activity in my report: I also traded with Bismark for Compass. Also, we learned MC on turn 14, and I chose Machenery next. Samauri, here we come!

As for the war, Izzy won't give us anything for peace. She is only up Civil Service, and has fallen way behind in all other techs. I thik we push on, and finish her off. I only lost a couple cats all turnset. Now that I just took Cordoba, we can sweep southwest, and take out Toledo and that old barb city. Izzy also settled another new city to the southwest of Osaka.


Other AIs: Hatty got all p!ssy with us, and canceled OB with us on one of my last turns. Out Galley is now stuck inbetween Hatty's culture... not sure what to do with it yet. If we end up going to war, we can slip the galley out to the south.

We're getting on pretty good terms with Bismark, so I think our border passage with him should be solid.

 

[dot]

Very nice, Maquis. Good job on the trading front. And I'm happy to see that our troops have been able to do so much damage. Great.

The Palace. I have to apologize. What I haven't taken into account is the fact that under bureaucracy Osaka would be heaps better than Kyoto. I simply don't use it very much. So ... sorry folks. My . Move the palace.

Going for drama and so on. I don't know. It might work, though. What ever you're going to decide - I'll report for duty.

All this talk about having no metals on the islands has made me think. This is sth I usually try to avoid. But on the 800 AD save Bismarck, HC and Hatty did have metals to trade. We might be able to make friends with Biz Markie - which we'd need anyway for the OB. Maybe he'd trade iron to us?

Regards, .

 

[Maquis]

HC and Hatty did have metals to trade. We might be able to make friends with Biz Markie

Well, trades with Hattie are out. We're currently her worst enemy. Bismark, however, is more than willing to trade us some of his iron. UNfortunatly I think he has Clams & fishies already, so I don;t think we have anything available to trade him. (GreyFox can check this though) Until Optics, we can't trade any resources on the mainland to AI's off the islands.

 

[dot]

Until Optics, we can't trade any resources on the mainland to AI's off the islands.

To be able to trade via ocean tiles requires astronomy. So the thing that might work would be trading the whale (from optics) to biz for iron.

.

 

[dot]

Calendar is in? So let us see:

Spoiler :

the islands (resources)

the islands (culture)

the continent (resources)

the continent (culture)

the world

​

Regards, .

A small tribute to all silent lurkers.

 

[armstrong]

Well, Bis will want more than just Whales for Iron, I'd think... unless he's thought of some creative military use for them... normally they want 2 luxury or health resources for a strategic one. Stone, if he doesn't have it, would be fine, though. We don't really have any use for it otherwise. I'll take a look at the save, it's moving well it seems.

Hatty doesn't hate us that much, I don't think. She just hasn't known us long as we're a different religion. She's a big trader, so if we switched to no state religion she'd probably trade with us if we wanted to give her health resources for metal.

Btw, I just kind of picked Hatty randomly as a war target. We could go after Mansa, too. His capital has iron in it, though we'd probably need to take a second city to get the cultural pressure off of it.

I think the equation really changes if we can get our handles on some metal. I'd say it becomes a much higher priority (it looks like the other continent has basically sorted itself out already, as well... !!!)

Representation (I forgot about the Pyramids) is wonderful - we should try to keep 2 scientists running in all 3 island cities at all times now - they all have enough food (except for Whale Town if it needs to grow for a whip, until we research the lenses necessary for whales to be useful.)

 

[GreyFox]

I have a brief peek at the save last night, wonderful job. I will continue to finish Izzy off, or at least cut her access from metals so that should we have to take a 10 turns peace to catch a breath, we can do so without fear.

As for the other side of the world, I am not that concern. Nothing can be done until we get Drama and whip the Globe. So its basically infarstructure build buying us time. Also, it is damned crowded there. With the AI having agressiveness tuned up, there bound to be a war between them (and hopfully not on us). So we have to build some galleys for defense, at least to secure the choke point border link between Bismarck and us. More importantly, I will allow us to decide who to align with (initially ) to kill off some Civs.

Research wise, Optics is pretty high on the list, so is Drama.

I don't think we have calendar ...

--

 

[Maquis]

I don't think we have calendar ...

Workers in Barcelona are building a Plantation on sugar right now... that takes Calendar, no?

 

[armstrong]

So we have to build some galleys for defense, at least to secure the choke point border link between Bismarck and us.

No, we don't have to. But galleys in preparation to ship units over isn't bad (I think we'll need 3 to keep up with the )

Because it's such a stretch (2 tiles on both sides) between Bis and us, we're unreachable. Crucially, they can't enter the ocean tile that we control in with our culture without an OB agreement with us. If they declared, they'd get booted back into Biz's land and couldn't use our culture to reach our cities. Actually, it's impossible for anyone to attack/pillage the islands pre-Astronomy. We can attack the continent, of course, as long as Fred obliges...

Research wise, Optics is pretty high on the list, so is Drama.

Personally, I'm completely sold on Drama first, then Optics later. I don't think we'll even need Astronomy to clear the other island - Kyoto produces units, the Osaka continent supports the economy. However, we've only met 5 civs I think, so there might be another out there not on either continent that we'll need Astronomy for (and Optics would let us know sooner rather than later.)

Btw, this map is amazing. I'd love if they had regular GOTM's like this (not because I don't like playing with y'all, just so I could get one a month!)

 

[armstrong]

I just took a look at the save. Huayna & Biz both have Iron to trade so we could build Samurai, but Huayna has stone (unlike Biz, who has neither stone, crab, nor clam.) So we could get Iron from Bismarck, but we'd need to improve our relations with him (i.e., no state religion, which is better for culture, too) first. We'd also need Machinery & CS too.

I noticed we have some 10+ xp troops right now (I forgot about raging barbs ) so we can get HE started in Kyoto right now instead of the Harbor. We need Lit for it, but it's 3 turns at 100% and we have lots of gold. So, start barracks, whip next turn, Lit comes in start HE. If it's too slow whip something for spillover. We can afford to build up some whip unhappiness in Kyoto as long as we can get enough to finish globe, but with 4 food resources we can grow Kyoto big enough to whip 8 or 9 pop if we don't anger them too badly (tricky, tricky...)

We can trade Philosophy for Drama & 230 gold with Hatty, which I think is okay since Philosophy isn't a military tech. Whip 3 theatres in the islands, let the continent build/whip 3 more, and we could get globe quickly (hopefully around the time Samurai come online.) I think this would be the fastest way to win, but I imagine there's some dissent on that

 

[GreyFox]

You are right on the cultural border thingy (same with SGOTM01 where HC can reach us but we can't)

Are we allowed to trade for iron when we do have iron?

I won't be so quick to trade with Hatty ... we have some other things to build in Kyoto anyway. Only trade when we have nothing else to build in Kyoto.

I still like to see a war among the AIs ... there bound to be one.

--

 

[armstrong]

Are we allowed to trade for iron when we do have iron?

Yeah, the whole capital + non-capital trade routes baffle me. I don't know if we could trade it if we moved the Palace, or if we had a previous trade prior to the move, would the deal cancel? It's a completely novel situation, but Fred has redded out Iron for trade (he just doesn't like us enough...) so theoretically we can get it as long as we don't move the palace just yet...

I won't be so quick to trade with Hatty ... we have some other things to build in Kyoto anyway. Only trade when we have nothing else to build in Kyoto.

I see where you're coming from, but the reason I suggest it is because it gives us a headstart on the theatres in our other cities. Kyoto has to build Forge, Barracks, HE, Theatre, then Globe, but with the and +16 that shouldn't take too long. The crucial thing is making sure we get 5 other theatres in the meantime. You're right we can delay a bit, but we don't want to lose the trade (especially since we've already broken the Philo doowoppoly.) Plus, the 230 gold is a nice stack of coins. Philo only unlocks Nationalism - we can take her out before she gets that & MT & Powder. That trade would shave 3-4 turns off our tech development, and I don't see how it strengthens Hatty in the short term. Also, we don't have to hit Hatty first, we can hit Mansa, too.

Ultimately, though, I'd like a referendum on the "Kyoto Factory" strategy. I'll champion it, but I am open to disagreements (and I imagine they are legion.) We do need to commit one way or the other before we play anymore, I think, ... or just agree not to care.

 

[GreyFox]

I like the "Kyoto ...(Factory?? i don't think so!!) Slavehouse" idea too ... I just want to get align with the current relationship among the other AIs in the semi-circular continent. We don't want a "Trade with worst enemy" with Bismarck pre-maturely.

Can we do a mock up to test the pre-astronomy capital non-capital trade? We must be sure if we can shift the palace or not.

--

 

[Codeman]

i like whipping in kyoto. i vote we take hatty first. if we go after mansa first it is possible hatty's culture will reach.

 

[Maquis]

Bear with me... I've been milling this over the last day or so... I just haven't checked it in-game.

Whipping in Kyoto is a great idea... However, I do want to start a little discussion on another option we now have available... rush buying. With the Pyramids under our control, we could go into Uni Suff and rush units in addition to whipping them.

I have yet to test this in-game, so I don't know if we would have the GPT available, if we turn down research. Samauri cost 70 which means 140 gold needed to rush (after some production is put in) someone correct me if I am wrong here

The nice thing of this is, we stay in Slavery, and still whip units in addition to buying them. The downside is we would lose Repesentation for the time we are cash-rushing units.

Just a idea on how to get a BIG army going ASAP. It's that whole "fastest conquest" thing...

Thoughts?

 

[GreyFox]

Sorry Guys, couldn't play tonight, will have to play tomorrow. One good thing is, I did a mock up.

First, palace do not have copper:

From the trade screen:

we can trade for copper from Mansa.

Now, I shifted the palace to the copper site.

Let's look at the tech screen again:

No more trades.

So, to shift or not to shift, that's no longer the question.

By the way, I looked at the save, and seeing that we are in Buddhist, no wonder Hatty hate us. It won't bear well with Bismarck as well. So what I plan to do is to revolt to no-religion (after the sword is produced). Then I will check Hatty for trade. I hate changing a 1700 beakers tech for a 600 beakers tech, so I will try to get something else from Hatty as well,.

--

 

[dot]

Hi everybody, just some thoughts:

However, we've only met 5 civs I think, so there might be another out there not on either continent that we'll need Astronomy for (and Optics would let us know sooner rather than later.)

I've been considering the very same thing, armstrong. But we are rather lucky. Have a look at the second pic here. And look on the left side at the north of HC's culture. , that does look like mongolian culture to me!

One good thing is, I did a mock up.

And that is a very good thing, Fox. . So not shifting the palace has been the correct move on wrong assumptions. Well, that might be better than the wrong move on correct assumptions. Great. Once more: .

I have yet to test this in-game, so I don't know if we would have the GPT available, if we turn down research. Samauri cost 70 which means 140 gold needed to rush (after some production is put in) someone correct me if I am wrong here

The nice thing of this is, we stay in Slavery, and still whip units in addition to buying them. The downside is we would lose Repesentation for the time we are cash-rushing units.

Just a idea on how to get a BIG army going ASAP. It's that whole "fastest conquest" thing...

Thoughts?

Very nice idea, Maquis. I did that poprush/buy double thing once. It would be fast as hell. Yes. And that might be a very good thing.

On spending 140 for a 70 unit ... I simply don't know. Sorry.

Regards to all, .

 

[Codeman]

... we stay in Slavery, and still whip units in addition to buying them. The downside is we would lose Repesentation for the time we are cash-rushing units.

Just a idea on how to get a BIG army going ASAP. It's that whole "fastest conquest" thing...

Thoughts?

i was thinking about this as well. but not sure if it's worth it or if we can actually afford to take advantage if it is worth it.

on moving the palace. i think when the map was created it was intended to plant the idea it was necessary to move the palace. now, after seeing more of the world i don't think we should move it. we've almost got spain gone. i don't think we will do much more than building on that cont for a while. i think the action is gonna take place in the ring. we could go ahead and build the forbidden for maint benefits, which would allow more cities...

i think we should finish up the spanish and plant some fog busters, but no new cities for a while (at least until FP). i think eventually we will launch another offensive from this location.