hm...either that or they got the starting island completely settled in that time period just as we're planning to do. I don't know how they could have gotten a big enough army to do much warmongering that early unless iron is in our starting area.
SGOTM 03 - Geezers
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I wouldn't waste turns on building another scout. With the chariot coming on line there shouldn't be trouble rotating the fogbusters and freeing up the scout. If alex only has two cities with everyone else 4-5 I am sure he will be looking for expansion. Why wouldn't he find it easier to take on Mao (other than they are getting along)? And with Mao being the current big boy on the block what is keeping him from joining Alex in a war (since they are buds)?
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Of course another possibility is that Mao might attack Alex.
Probably unlikely though in vanilla. It might have been more likely in warlords. As a possible answer however, I believe the AI place a lot of emphasis on the power rating and we're bottom and IIRC Mao's top. Which why I think Alex and/or Mao will attack sooner rather than later.
A calculation that we probably should've done at the beginning, but never mind...
We have 30 tiles in our borders and 2.50% landarea. That means there are approx. 1200 land tiles (the actual number is between 1195 and 1205).
Muskovy Isle contains 57 tiles total (4.8% of the land) and the small island contains 8 (which bumps us to 5.4%).
With 18 civs, and assuming the whole land area is occupied each one can expect an average of 5.6% of the land. Of course a small amount of land is probably ice or otherwise uninhabitable and will never be occupied, which brings the total down a bit, but some AI's will get destroyed which brings it up again.
I'd guess that since we presumably want to be the leading civ, even if we don't go mass-conquering, we presumably want at least 10% landarea, perhaps 20%. I reckon that means that to establish ourselves as the clear leading civ, as an absolute minimum we will need to conquer an area equal to 'our' current land, and quite likely an area 3 times as big. (Obviously, more if we decide to go for 'backdoor' diplomatic win)
The only thing likely to change that calculation is if it turns out that a very substantial portion of the landarea is ice (which was the case in GOTM8 so perhaps it'll happen again?)
We have 30 tiles in our borders and 2.50% landarea. That means there are approx. 1200 land tiles (the actual number is between 1195 and 1205).
Muskovy Isle contains 57 tiles total (4.8% of the land) and the small island contains 8 (which bumps us to 5.4%).
With 18 civs, and assuming the whole land area is occupied each one can expect an average of 5.6% of the land. Of course a small amount of land is probably ice or otherwise uninhabitable and will never be occupied, which brings the total down a bit, but some AI's will get destroyed which brings it up again.
I'd guess that since we presumably want to be the leading civ, even if we don't go mass-conquering, we presumably want at least 10% landarea, perhaps 20%. I reckon that means that to establish ourselves as the clear leading civ, as an absolute minimum we will need to conquer an area equal to 'our' current land, and quite likely an area 3 times as big. (Obviously, more if we decide to go for 'backdoor' diplomatic win)
The only thing likely to change that calculation is if it turns out that a very substantial portion of the landarea is ice (which was the case in GOTM8 so perhaps it'll happen again?)
I guess we need to think about city locations. Thrallia's original cow spot had been excellent but has now been nerfed by Coppertownski taking its fish. I have two different proposals to offer for discussion:
(In both screenshots, X marks the city locations, I've drawn in city radiuses, and scribbled over the tiles that are shared between cities)
1. Pseudo-Thrallia. (sorry, couldn't resist
)
This is identical to Thrallia's proposals except that I've moved the cow city 1E to reduce city overlap. This proposal allows us to get max. benefit from all but one of the gems.
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
2. Great-People-Farm
In this proposal I've removed the NE gem city and moved the cow city to 2N of the rice. This city could potentially in the long term make an outstanding great-person farm, as it has fish, cow and rice, and lots of grassland (also has gems). In the short term it'd have to be a commerce-cottage city as it cannot access any resources until it grows (it'd be another poprush-obelisk jobbie). I've also moved the western gem city 1E; this kills some city overlap, removes some next-to-useless ocean tiles from its radius, and gives it more cottagable land, at a cost of not being able to use its food resource until its borders expand, and settling on top of a gem (but I think (?) we get an extra hammer or two through being able to mine the non-gem hill).
Advantages
Disadvantages
(In both screenshots, X marks the city locations, I've drawn in city radiuses, and scribbled over the tiles that are shared between cities)
1. Pseudo-Thrallia. (sorry, couldn't resist
)
This is identical to Thrallia's proposals except that I've moved the cow city 1E to reduce city overlap. This proposal allows us to get max. benefit from all but one of the gems.
Advantages:
- We get max tiles worked and max cottages in the short term.
- Entire island is covered by city radius very quickly.
Disadvantages:
- The NE-most city on the gems looks a bit iffy. It has the fish so can grow quickly, but, given the massive overlap with the cow city, has few workable non-sea tiles of its own. As our empire expands, will this city end up costing rather than contributing commerce?
2. Great-People-Farm
In this proposal I've removed the NE gem city and moved the cow city to 2N of the rice. This city could potentially in the long term make an outstanding great-person farm, as it has fish, cow and rice, and lots of grassland (also has gems). In the short term it'd have to be a commerce-cottage city as it cannot access any resources until it grows (it'd be another poprush-obelisk jobbie). I've also moved the western gem city 1E; this kills some city overlap, removes some next-to-useless ocean tiles from its radius, and gives it more cottagable land, at a cost of not being able to use its food resource until its borders expand, and settling on top of a gem (but I think (?) we get an extra hammer or two through being able to mine the non-gem hill).
Advantages
- Get a GPP farm if we want
- Cover land with fewer cities -> less maintenance in the long run
Disadvantages
- Some land in Muskovy Isle doesn't come into our borders until a city gets to 150 culture.
- We lose the full commerce benefit of two gems (as opposed to one for the other proposal)
Turn 0: Start bringing scout home, adjust warriors so that there is still no fog on Muskovy(pretty neat, move each warrior one spot and it completely busted Muskovy again)
Gift our extra clams to Julius and Gandhi
up science to 100%, only lose 4 gpt at it so we get IW in 7 turns rather than 8
IBT: Nothing
Turn 1: fortify warriors, move Novgorod worker to copper to road it.
IBT: Mao offers OB. I ask him to include crabs for free and he refuses so I dismiss him.
Turn 2: Moscow Workboat>Library(for one turn then I'll go to workers once we hit size 6...I want to be able to pop rush the Library soon). We pass Alex in score.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3: Novgorod Chariot>Barracks(no more fogbusters needed so might as well get the barracks now)
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4: Alex exposes a worker on his stone so I load up the warrior in St. Pete as well as the scout for a possible transcontinental worker steal.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 5: Nothing of note except I had miscalculated our funds and find we'll need 8 turns for IW anyway, 1 of 0% and 7 of 100%
IBT: Nothing
Turn 6: Novgorod worker starts roading second gems. St. Pete worker starts chopping forests
IBT: Nothing
Turn 7: St. Petersburg Settler>Settler. I move settler one square N so that it is 1 turn closer to an island founding and 0 turns lost for a non-island founding
IBT: Nothing
Turn 8: Much happens so I'll stop here and continue tomorrow after discussions. I can steal Alex's worker easily..the worker would be safe and our warrior could scout his lands. Also, Mao has Sailing as I saw two empty galleys pass ours IBT. He can't reach our island and he and Alex have OB(they came through Alex's sea) Also, just as I was about to detour through Masonry for 5 turns, someone built the Great Lighthouse, so I decided to go Alphabet next instead...22 turns away, unfortunately
Finally, Iron is discovered JUST OUTSIDE Moscow's fat cross but within our borders. There is also iron on the island outside Julius' borders...I think the settler should go there to prevent him from getting it. There's iron in greek lands too, but it is cottaged right now so he obviously doesn't know about it
Personally, I think I should go ahead and steal Alex's worker...they are always nice and a worker steal this late should be considered a blessing(especially since we were planning on attacking him sooner or later anyway?) I can amphibiously attack the worker, put him on the galley, and head back toward Muskovy. As I go around the cape, I can drop off the worker and take on the settler and head to the Isle of Lodestones.
Gift our extra clams to Julius and Gandhi
up science to 100%, only lose 4 gpt at it so we get IW in 7 turns rather than 8
IBT: Nothing
Turn 1: fortify warriors, move Novgorod worker to copper to road it.
IBT: Mao offers OB. I ask him to include crabs for free and he refuses so I dismiss him.
Turn 2: Moscow Workboat>Library(for one turn then I'll go to workers once we hit size 6...I want to be able to pop rush the Library soon). We pass Alex in score.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3: Novgorod Chariot>Barracks(no more fogbusters needed so might as well get the barracks now)
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4: Alex exposes a worker on his stone so I load up the warrior in St. Pete as well as the scout for a possible transcontinental worker steal.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 5: Nothing of note except I had miscalculated our funds and find we'll need 8 turns for IW anyway, 1 of 0% and 7 of 100%
IBT: Nothing
Turn 6: Novgorod worker starts roading second gems. St. Pete worker starts chopping forests
IBT: Nothing
Turn 7: St. Petersburg Settler>Settler. I move settler one square N so that it is 1 turn closer to an island founding and 0 turns lost for a non-island founding
IBT: Nothing
Turn 8: Much happens so I'll stop here and continue tomorrow after discussions. I can steal Alex's worker easily..the worker would be safe and our warrior could scout his lands. Also, Mao has Sailing as I saw two empty galleys pass ours IBT. He can't reach our island and he and Alex have OB(they came through Alex's sea) Also, just as I was about to detour through Masonry for 5 turns, someone built the Great Lighthouse, so I decided to go Alphabet next instead...22 turns away, unfortunately
Finally, Iron is discovered JUST OUTSIDE Moscow's fat cross but within our borders. There is also iron on the island outside Julius' borders...I think the settler should go there to prevent him from getting it. There's iron in greek lands too, but it is cottaged right now so he obviously doesn't know about it
Personally, I think I should go ahead and steal Alex's worker...they are always nice and a worker steal this late should be considered a blessing(especially since we were planning on attacking him sooner or later anyway?) I can amphibiously attack the worker, put him on the galley, and head back toward Muskovy. As I go around the cape, I can drop off the worker and take on the settler and head to the Isle of Lodestones.
Attachments
Htadus
A and L's dad
@Thrallia
Wow what a decision? Start a war or not to start a war? I am going to listen to the discussion but it appear defense is easier than offense in C4, so it should not be a bad plan to steal the worker. Btw where is the iron? I would guess it is on the tile N of the Cap that none of our City locations will use. Anyways lets get it connected
. Soon if we going to war.
@DynamicSpirit
With limited land, I prefer first proposal. The city on gems will get 3gpt?
We should definately claim the island.
Wow what a decision? Start a war or not to start a war? I am going to listen to the discussion but it appear defense is easier than offense in C4, so it should not be a bad plan to steal the worker. Btw where is the iron? I would guess it is on the tile N of the Cap that none of our City locations will use. Anyways lets get it connected
. Soon if we going to war.@DynamicSpirit
With limited land, I prefer first proposal. The city on gems will get 3gpt?
We should definately claim the island.
Didn't I tell you that this island cannot be that plain ?
I agree that we should settle that island. It will be a good production city.
On the city placement in the North I would prefer proposal #1 moving the spot 1 E. We would lose too many tiles if we put just one city in that area. I think both cities in the original setting will have enough potential for this game.
EDIT : Ah, forgot about the worker steal. Why not ? I think we can make peace with Alex before he can get some units to us. By that time we should have axes and should be quite safe.
I agree that we should settle that island. It will be a good production city.
On the city placement in the North I would prefer proposal #1 moving the spot 1 E. We would lose too many tiles if we put just one city in that area. I think both cities in the original setting will have enough potential for this game.
EDIT : Ah, forgot about the worker steal. Why not ? I think we can make peace with Alex before he can get some units to us. By that time we should have axes and should be quite safe.
We may have another problem. Judging from the cultural borders, it looks very likely that Gandhi has just settled Bangalore on the hill-forest 2SW of our proposed stop-Gandhi city site. If he has, then that tile is now out of bounds for a city - the tile 1N will IMO have too much overlap to be very viable, and loses us the gems from its radius, which leaves us putting that city 1NE, next to the rice. That's going to screw up the rest of our city sites 
Here you go
@Thrallia: So far we've seen no evidence that Alex has any galleys. If he doesn't, then we're very safe declaring war. If he does, we could be in trouble, esp. with fishing boats getting pillaged. My gut feeling is his forces consist of 5-6 archers which are mostly tied up defending his cities, and so he has nothing with which to invade us, but I could be wrong.
If we wanted to double-check, we could declare OB. It'd take us 3 turns to sail the galley to SW of the cows and back (from where we should be able to see what's in his capital; I'm pretty sure from his borders Athens is just SE of the cows) while our scout checks out Sparta. Then we can declare war. However, that ties up the galley for an extra 3 turns, delaying settling Isle of Lodestones, and we can't be sure the worker won't be defended by then. (We know he'll still be there, he's on 7 turns to build the quarry).
If we wanted to double-check, we could declare OB. It'd take us 3 turns to sail the galley to SW of the cows and back (from where we should be able to see what's in his capital; I'm pretty sure from his borders Athens is just SE of the cows) while our scout checks out Sparta. Then we can declare war. However, that ties up the galley for an extra 3 turns, delaying settling Isle of Lodestones, and we can't be sure the worker won't be defended by then. (We know he'll still be there, he's on 7 turns to build the quarry).
How about this? (It means we can use the iron too, and we get a super-commerce city that has 3 gems)
We miss a fish, but with that layout each city has its' food bonus and as we plan to take the island towards JC we will have 7 good cities + the 2 from Alex
.That should be ok.How about this? (It means we can use the iron too, and we get a super-commerce city that has 3 gems)
I don't like losing both fish, but it looks about the best IF the premise about not being able to settle Thrallia's original site is true.
What if :
1. Steal worker- Take him and settler to Iron Island (we will need a worker there soon)
2. OB Gandi (if we haven't) and take galley a couple of turns to verify his city location.
3. Return for next settler or sentry duties and see where we stand.
Does the 2 tile City placement act the same over ocean?
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Their culture also got a big boost so it's probably a wonder/religion.
those city locations sound good, I really hated losing the ability to work that iron lol, actually I like those locations on reflection better than the original ones...it gives us another production city and an even better commerce city.
I'll go ahead and worker steal from Alex and bring both the worker and settler toward the Isle of Lodestones(name change to Ferrous Isle?) Alex doesn't have sailing yet, I'm pretty sure Mao is the only one that does. Our next settler after Ferrous Isle should definitely head to the Gandhi chokepoint though, he'll be more than half finished when my turnset is finished(I assume I'm only playing 10 turns?)
I'll go ahead and worker steal from Alex and bring both the worker and settler toward the Isle of Lodestones(name change to Ferrous Isle?) Alex doesn't have sailing yet, I'm pretty sure Mao is the only one that does. Our next settler after Ferrous Isle should definitely head to the Gandhi chokepoint though, he'll be more than half finished when my turnset is finished(I assume I'm only playing 10 turns?)
I like both names but prefer Isle of Lodestones. It has a more adventurous, romantic, ring to it
You're definitely coming up with some good names!I think we're on 10-turn turnsets now.
The Save
Turn 8 continued: Declare war on Alex, steal worker, put worker on galley and start heading for home.
IBT: Alex attacks our warrior with an archer and we barely lose(archer hit 1.1 health)
Turn 9: Swap out scout and settler onboard the galley, finish roading second novgorod gems, turn research to 0
IBT: Nothing
Turn 10: Research back to 100%, each turn at 0% currently funds 3 turns at 100%.
Moscow worker>Library. Library can be rushed for 3 pop right now or we could build a granary there in 5 turns(fast granaries) and then rush the library or ignore it for awhile and build more workers/settlers. St. Pete finishes the next settler in 12 turns, we should definitely use our galley as a bridge to speed up the founding of the Gandhi blocker...we really don't want to be late there.
Summary:
Lots of stuff happened:
Turn 8 continued: Declare war on Alex, steal worker, put worker on galley and start heading for home.
IBT: Alex attacks our warrior with an archer and we barely lose(archer hit 1.1 health)
Turn 9: Swap out scout and settler onboard the galley, finish roading second novgorod gems, turn research to 0
IBT: Nothing
Turn 10: Research back to 100%, each turn at 0% currently funds 3 turns at 100%.
Moscow worker>Library. Library can be rushed for 3 pop right now or we could build a granary there in 5 turns(fast granaries) and then rush the library or ignore it for awhile and build more workers/settlers. St. Pete finishes the next settler in 12 turns, we should definitely use our galley as a bridge to speed up the founding of the Gandhi blocker...we really don't want to be late there.
Summary:
Lots of stuff happened:
- we're at war with Alex, he destroyed our warrior so he may not be willing to make peace for awhile...
- we should hook up the iron and send our chariot and an axe or two over there. Perhaps we'll find him with just archers and be able to take him out early!
- We need to discuss where to settle on the Isle of Lodestones.
- Novgorod has borders pop next turn(I think) so fish should get built on and we should look to gift that resource to whoever wants it(I believe only Vicky doesn't have fish yet)
- Binary research should continue as it seems to definitely be able to improve our research time(breakeven point is now 80% and that takes 27 turns, while binary will take either 25 or 26 turns) Every turn counts and this isn't too hard to do to help.
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