SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[DynamicSpirit]

here's my thoughts...from the spot 1N of the plains hill, we can see the forests, the hill, ensuring that there are no barbs there. Pass a turn and move to 1NW and 1SW to move around the forested hill, that ensures that the two coastal grasslands are barb free and we place the worker on the forested hill, where it is safe for at least one turn regardless. next turn go SW twice to get around the corner and move the worker 1SW to reveal the jungle(if a barb in jungle continue SW to the corner where it can reboard the galley the following turn) and when it is shown as barb free, drop the settler that turn on the island where it is guaranteed safe as well. Next turn we finish moving the galley around the island and see it is barb free, thus, in the minimum number of turns we are already roading the iron and have the settler in the jungle ready to found Lodestone City.

Wow, that is clever. I like it! (Took me several minutes to work through it mentally and verify it would guarantee absolute protection against barbs) I actually did what you suggested in my turnset (about to upload it), with one alteration: I offloaded the settler first to the forested hill instead of the worker, allowing founding the city 1 turn earlier.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3//Geezers_SG003_BC0550_01.Civ4SavedGame



Summary:

• Lodestone City founded successfully, along with New Novgorod (the city to work the northern Iron).
• The settler for the block-Gandhi city has just arrived, but it's probably not worth founding that city until its gems have been cleared. (There's two workers around to start doing that).
• Coppertownski is about to hit size 3 and complete its barracks, at which point it'll be fully online as a fast-military-production city.
• We have access to copper, iron is awaiting a road. This means we now need only 1 more settler before we have all our cities populated and we can start opening borders. Only downer is the city we're still waiting for the settler for is the one that'll be the strongest science powerhouse.
• As expected, absolutely nothing has happened in the Alex war. We have an additional chariot for defence.
• There's more land just visible SE of Lodestone City

Key events, turn-by-turn:

• 120 (last of Thrallia's turns. I take advantage of a couple of unmoved units...). Move NW-Fogbust warrior SW to verify suspected Bangalore location. (Yep it's there). Workboat NW to replace fogbust for that turn (it won't delay the fishing boats). Chariot SW to check Caesar's borders. Confucianism has been founded in a distant land.
• 121. Gandhi offers open borders. I refuse. I start walking Scout N so he can swap fogbusting with a warrior.
• 122. England demands fish as tribute. I comply.
• 124 Load chariot onto galley - precaution so can get anywhere needed a bit quicker. Lodestone City founded. Set to granary, on the basis that we'll swap to an axe as soon as we are allowed to. (I decide building more warriors isn't a good idea as it looks like we're close to our limit for how much military we can have before it costs us gold)
• 125 Caesar offers open borders. I refuse
• 126 Take first chance to poprush settler in Moscow (2 pop) and St. Petersburg. (1 pop).
• 127 The poprush overflow in St. P coincides with forest chop. I use the double bonus to complete a chariot in 1 turn. Scout arrives to swap fogbusting with warrior. Start granary in Moscow as it's only 4 turns to complete.
• 129. Iron near Moscow mined and roaded. At this point I discover a miscalculation. I thought this would be sufficient (via the sea) to allow us to build swordsmen/axes. It isn't (perhaps that only works on rivers?) Evidently we need the road all the way to Moscow. That means Lodestone City can't switch to an axe. I move chariot to boat so I can take chariot down there.
• 130 New Novgorod founded (sorry, I can't think of a better name. Thrallia??? Where are you...?), while other settler arrives at block-Gandhi spot. I did think about delaying New Novgorod but couldn't see any point delaying since it can work the mined iron immediately. Copper mined, so Lodestone City can switch to axe; however at this point I decide to leave it as granary is so nearly complete and the chariot is on its way there in the galley.

Over to you, Sam...!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just my paranoia getting the better of me when surrounded by at least 3 grumpies with bad breath. And we were talking about Barbarians hiding in the woods Silly me.

Just remember that some AI somewhere has started nextdoor to Montezuma. Wonder if whoever it is'll still be alive when we find him...

 

[markh]

Sounds great.

I think all coastal tiles have to be in our cultural borders to enable sharing resources via sea. I think if you connect SP and Moscow via road we will be able to build axes, etc. in Moscow, too. Lodestone has to expand the cultural borders to get all the necessary coastal tiles into our territory.

Otherwise you should have not had the ability to build a chariot in SP.

 

[Dagnabit]

Good set of turns Simon! Quick question, In your uploaded pictures I noticed numbers following the City Name and Build below it. How did you do that?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Downloaded the save but had our Xmas do today so I won't bother looking at it or coming up with any ideas tonight. I'll look at it tomorrow probably in 20 hours or so. Suggestions welcome.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Good set of turns Simon! Quick question, In your uploaded pictures I noticed numbers following the City Name and Build below it. How did you do that?

Thanks! That was in large measure thanks to the previous players who'd managed to get our civ set up so we were ready for rapid expansion. I did also take some risk by going for expansion rather than military, on the assumption that Alex was in no state to respond to our war, so we could safely hold on until Coppertownski came online. I imagine Sam's and your turnsets will see a rapid expansion in our military now that's about to happen - we're still not far off being defenceless .

City name and build - it's somewhere in the options menu, forget which one. Something like 'show full city information'. If you scroll through the options you'll find it. The other one I like is 'show health bars' which puts red/yellow/green lines showing unit health state above each unit. (It also makes enemy units a lot easier to see).

 

[Thrallia]

@Dagnabit: It is an option under the graphics tab called Detailed City Info, I've got it on also, it is pretty helpful to have...lets you know exactly how long till something is built or the city grows without having to hover over it or enter the city screen

@Simon: Alex doesn't have sailing, so there's nothing he can do We need to keep it that way too or he'll get a settler out somewhere and we'll have diplo penalties for awhile.

From the diplo screen, I can see that of the civs we know everyone has copper except Mao and Vicky(I'm not sure about Alex, it won't show what resources he has anymore since we are at war)..that means even if Alex had something he COULD give Mao to get him to declare war on us, we wouldn't have anything to worry about anymore.

Once the next settler is produced, I think if we have Moscow and Coppertownski(perhaps New Novgorod too) produce axes and swords, another couple galleys, and then take out Alex before he meets anyone other than Mao...that way only Mao is ticked with us about it and we've added another couple cities to our empire. Since Alex might have copper, I'd prefer we send over more axes than swords, but we should have at least a couple swords. What do you guys think?

 

[Dagnabit]

Thanks And who says an old geezer can't learn anything.!

 

[Dagnabit]

Since Alex might have copper, I'd prefer we send over more axes than swords, but we should have at least a couple swords. What do you guys think?

Didn't Alex have Iron right across from StPete? Why Axes over Swords if he has copper?

 

[Dagnabit]

@Simon: Alex doesn't have sailing, so there's nothing he can do We need to keep it that way too or he'll get a settler out somewhere and we'll have diplo penalties for awhile.

If Alex is without galleys lets take our galley over and see if he has any seafood to plunder. Safe as long as Mao doesn't join him.

 

[Thrallia]

Didn't Alex have Iron right across from StPete? Why Axes over Swords if he has copper?

He does have iron next to one of his cities, but it is cottaged and being worked as a cottage, which means he doesn't know it is there. That tells us he doesn't know IW and thus the best units he can have are axes and phalanxes(which means don't bring chariots!).

If he doesn't have copper we can bring whatever we want, but would prefer swords. Reason is in the bonuses different troops get. Without copper, Alex is relegated to archers, chariots, and warriors, none of which have unit specific bonuses so we want swords that have a city attack bonus(+10% city attack naturally).

If he has copper, he'll be more likely to build his UU, phalanxes, and axes. Phalanxes are 5 strength and +100% vs mounted units while axes are strength 5 and +50% vs melee units. That means swords would be at a disadvantage against axes(7.5 axe vs 6 sword) and chariots would be pointless(10 phalanx vs 4 chariot). However, if we brought our own axes over en masse we'd be able to take care of both phalanxes and axes easily(7.5 axe vs 7.5 axe) and (7.5 axe vs 5 phalanx)

Basically, we'll want to customize our attack force to what we know he has. So if we send a couple axes over first, we're in good shape, we know he has archers(which means axes and swords are both good), and if we find he has no axes then we should bring and drop off some swords as well for easier city attacking.

 

[Dagnabit]

I want you on my team! I have never even considered a selective military strike ( except in RL) and once again I to your war mongering prowess

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My thoughts:

• There's no desparate urgency to take Alex's cities. He still has only two cities. That almost certainly means he's boxed in and isn't going anywhere and won't be significantly more powerful in, say, 20 turns time than he is now. OTOH in 20 turns time we'll be a lot more powerful.
• The city in the north that we have yet to found is going to be an absolute science powerhouse once it's established (as well as giving us lots of gems to trade away). We'll damage ourselves if we allow the war to take our mind off founding that city as soon as possible.
• Coppertownski is the only town that has barracks. And starting in 2 turns time it'll be able to produce a 4xp axe or spear every 5 turns, a swordsman every 6 turns or a chariot every 4 turns, even without any poprushing. (It'll need a granary before it's worthwhile poprushing there)
• We need a couple more galleys (I'd say in total we need as a minimum one to ferry Coppertownski->St. P, one to ferry troops to Alex, and one to defend should Greek galleys appear, or go exploring if they don't).

Based on that what I'd like to do is:

• Build as much of our military as possible in Coppertownski, leaving other towns to concentrate on our infrastructure (though Lodestone City should prob build an axe to defend itself, and somewhere else could prob add another defensive unit).
• As soon as possible, send an axe and a chariot (I think that's better than two axes as the chariot can pillage as it goes while the axe defends it) to explore Greece, pillage any mines etc. (but NOT any cottages that we'll want to use when the towns are ours) and verify we won't need anything other than swords for the main war effort)
• Have Moscow produce a galley, then as soon as possible poprush a settler for the northern town (that's where most of our workers will need to head too, to clear the jungle). Either Moscow or New Novgorod can get us the 3rd galley. Other than that, have the other cities focus on developing their own infrastructure. That also means that Thrallia and Sam can get their library in Moscow
• Have Coppertownski produce swords as needed and take the two Greek towns as soon as we reasonably can.

 

[Thrallia]

Alex could discover IW, in which case we would have to hurry to prevent him from connecting the iron. If nothing else we should definitely send an axe or two and a chariot(protected by an axe) to harrass him

 

[Dagnabit]

how much pillaging of farms and villages do we want to do? I would selectively deny him any military resources such as the iron and cut roads between cities (no sailing no trade route between them) but since we inherit don't we want everything up and running as soon as possible?

Do we care about any cultural expansion in any of the new cities at this time or can we wait until they are a little more established?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

how much pillaging of farms and villages do we want to do? I would selectively deny him any military resources such as the iron and cut roads between cities (no sailing no trade route between them) but since we inherit don't we want everything up and running as soon as possible?

I'd definitely pillage mines because that stops him building defences. Roads if they are of strategic value to him. Things like farms are of marginal value to pillage. Cottages (and by implication roads sitting under cottages) are a definite 'no' since we'd be the main loser. Worth remembering that wcan also stop him working production tiles just by stationing units on them, without pillaging. Everything other than cottages can be rebuilt pretty quickly if we have a couple of workers (though we do have a lot of jungle to clear, that's going to be tieing up most of our workers for quite a while)

Do we care about any cultural expansion in any of the new cities at this time or can we wait until they are a little more established?

Not sure if that's a reference to the new cities we just founded. If so, yes I think we do care a lot about cultural expansion. I set them both to granaries first because they have the hammers available to build quickly without border expansion, and poprushing an obelisk is a lot less costly if the granary is already built. The block-gandhi city probably will want an obelisk first though since it won't have those hammers immediately available. (As always, it's a matter of judgement, opinion, and balancing conflicting needs, there's no one correct build order).

btw @Thrallia: Should clarify I wasn't saying we should deliberately leave taking Alex's cities, just that it isn't so urgent that we need sacrifice other aspects of our development in order to rush the swordsmen. I still think we should take him out as soon as possible consistent with building our own infrastructure and settling the gem city as quickly as we can.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I set them both to granaries first because they have the hammers available to build quickly without border expansion, and poprushing an obelisk is a lot less costly if the granary is already built.

Saves me asking that question then.

The map's changed a bit since I last saw it. Nice expansion DynamicSpirit. BlockGhandi city is where the sign is? Provisionally I think the idea is to build a galley in Moscow probably followed by an axe since it's production is higher than Coppertownski. Coppertownski obviously builds axes. I want to think a bit further about SP. I think it's building a library which will take ages.

Militarily I'll drop off the chariot in Lodestone and then send the galley to scout Alex's lands. I wonder if Alex actually has a coastal city?

Tech won't finish during my turn so it's a non issue.

I had another long day today so I won't play until tomorrow. Comments?

 

[Thrallia]

well once all our settlers are complete, we can chop our last SP forest for use with the library, then pop rush the rest of it.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I've had another look at the game and realised that there's a settler right underneath the sign for BlockGlhandi city so I assume that's the right place. Presumably the same applies for our northern city?

well once all our settlers are complete, we can chop our last SP forest for use with the library, then pop rush the rest of it.

Having looked at the options I think you're right. Production's going to be terrible there afterwards though.