SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[Thrallia]

alright, I won't need to swap, and tomorrow afternoon I should be able to take a look at the save and post my thoughts.

for now I'll just answer the question Simon had about my nick

My main online nick is Vulcanis, for the Roman god of fire, the forge, and weaponry(and the original name for the Vulcan homeworld in Star Trek), but some person who never posts here stole that one!! :angry: So, I used my backup name, Thrallia, which I created awhile ago for the same reason I used it here...it is supposed to be the name of the capital planet of an intergalactic empire from a 1920s sci-fi book series(The Lensman Series), unfortunately it had been about a year since I had read it at the time I came up with it...so I messed it up. Rather than be the planet(which is actually called Thrale), it is Thrallia, which is a misspelling of the name of the inhabitants, which are called Thralians.

 

[markh]

I would send the settler from SP to the Western site and I am not quite sure whether I would settle it immediately. Maybe it is better to block that spot. Another option would be to put enough forces at the spots and if Gandhi lands a settler. Declare war and get us a free worker.

Regarding the island towards JC I would not be too surprised if there is a resource on it.

We need three more settlers and I think I would chop them in Moscow and SP asap. The sooner we have our optimal spots settled the sooner we will be able to concentrate on science and . I really wouldn't like any AI to settle on our continent.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thankyou everyone for indulging my curiosity on your names!

@Thrallia: I actually like the name 'Thrallia' better than either 'Thrale' or 'Thralians'. Has a nice ring to it.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm concerned that we seem to be going flat out to produce settlers. As I understood it the original idea was to produce one more settler to block off Ghandi in the west. We were then, finally, going to start concentrating on infrastructure and military.

However all the talk now seems to be of producing yet more settlers until we have enough for our entire island and possibly also for the island to the south of us. If we carry on like this we won't need to worry about science later. Either because we've been invaded or because we've got no gold left to research with. I realise, or at least I hope, that the idea is not to settle all the cities at once but tieing up our cities building settlers and tieing up our workers to chop them seems a bad idea to me. It also means that we're less likely to be able to chop other stuff e.g. Great Library would be desirable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm concerned that we seem to be going flat out to produce settlers. As I understood it the original idea was to produce one more settler to block off Ghandi in the west. We were then, finally, going to start concentrating on infrastructure and military.

However all the talk now seems to be of producing yet more settlers until we have enough for our entire island and possibly also for the island to the south of us. If we carry on like this we won't need to worry about science later. Either because we've been invaded or because we've got no gold left to research with. I realise, or at least I hope, that the idea is not to settle all the cities at once but tieing up our cities building settlers and tieing up our workers to chop them seems a bad idea to me. It also means that we're less likely to be able to chop other stuff e.g. Great Library would be desirable.

I think what we're talking about is having Moscow and St. P going flat out/chopping to produce settlers. That still leaves Coppertownski free to go flat-out producing military. If we were talking about diverting Cski to produce settlers too, then I'd have agreed with you.

Chopping wonders is certainly desirable, but it's a question of priorities. In defence of chopping for early settlers to fill up our land before the AI does, I'd mention that:

• Some of the forests we're talking about chopping are in St. P, which is never realistically going to be used to build wonders anyway.
• By the time we come to build any wonders(GL, HG and Colossus are the obvious choices), our highest-production city is likely to be Coppertownski, not Moscow. By then we may well have enough military that we might welcome the chance for Cski to build something else, like a wonder.
• Chopping settlers now to found all our remaining cities asap will cause a very short term (and perhaps quite large) science hit, but if we are cottaging those cities and working gems, then our science will quickly catch up and surpass what it would've been if we hadn't founded the cities quickly.
• At current research rate, even if we beeline straight to literature for the GL, we're on 55 turns to get there (8 turns to complete IW, 26 for alphabet, 21 for literature). And since we currently have only one working cottage, our research isn't going to speed up that much in the meantime without more cities. ISTM with that long timescale, chopping for more cities now isn't going to delay literature significantly and may even speed it slightly due to the extra gems/cottages coming online.

(btw I was thinking of suggesting we beeline for construction rather than literature, because of the engineer from the hanging gardens, and because early cats are always useful Oh, and because we have stone)

 

[markh]

IMO it is necessary to found the cities as soon as possible or at least put settlers there to be able to found the cities once the AI sends their settlers. I really would not like to have an AI city on our island. We have to remember that we cannot raze cities, so no option to move a city once it is settled on our island.

The settlers should come from Moscow and SP. With chopping they should come quite fast. Coppertownski should just build military. I agree with that.

 

[Dagnabit]

IMO it is necessary to found the cities as soon as possible or at least put settlers there to be able to found the cities once the AI sends their settlers. I really would not like to have an AI city on our island. We have to remember that we cannot raze cities, so no option to move a city once it is settled on our island.

The settlers should come from Moscow and SP. With chopping they should come quite fast. Coppertownski should just build military. I agree with that.

I don't remember from looking at the save whether we have a barracks in Coppertownski. If not I think I would divert and get one before we start crunching troops. A promoted axe will fare quite well against anything landing on Moscovy at this stage in the game.

 

[markh]

I do not remember 100%, but I do not think there is one, so you are right that it is probably better to build one first.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do not remember 100%, but I do not think there is one, so you are right that it is probably better to build one first.

(Re barracks in Cski): There isn't one yet. Whether we build one first or build a couple of units first really depends on how long it'd take to get the barracks and how urgently we want to have a bit more defence. Personally I can't see any harm in building a couple of chariots first so we have some means to react to any emergency (or so we can get OB and send a chariot exploring another island). Then perhaps part-build a unit before swapping to barracks.

 

[Dagnabit]

(Re barracks in Cski): There isn't one yet. Whether we build one first or build a couple of units first really depends on how long it'd take to get the barracks and how urgently we want to have a bit more defence. Personally I can't see any harm in building a couple of chariots first so we have some means to react to any emergency (or so we can get OB and send a chariot exploring another island). Then perhaps part-build a unit before swapping to barracks.

Don't forget we have the scout fogbusting. We could get him to visit an AI shortly after we settle. Repositioning now that we have had some culture may let him go now if we want.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

( Personally I can't see any harm in building a couple of chariots first so we have some means to react to any emergency (or so we can get OB and send a chariot exploring another island).

If we're worried about the AI settling on our island then I think agreeing an OB is a bad idea until we have all those settlers.

 

[Thrallia]

first question(others will come later tonight): I can't recall, can you trade resources without OB? if you can, I'm going to trade our excess resources as soon as I can to begin improving relations.

Also, IIRC, you don't get penalties for trading with everyone you want until someone actually asks you to stop trading. Is that correct?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

first question(others will come later tonight): I can't recall, can you trade resources without OB? if you can, I'm going to trade our excess resources as soon as I can to begin improving relations.

Also, IIRC, you don't get penalties for trading with everyone you want until someone actually asks you to stop trading. Is that correct?

I think you can trade resources without OB, though I'm not sure if you may need some tech to do so (not sure which one though). You do get the diplo penalties even before someone asks you to stop trading. (You get 'you traded with our worst enemies' just for trading with them, then if they ask you to stop and you refuse to, you also get 'you refused to stop trading with our worse enemies') However, I don't think that's too much of a problem yet. It's early in the game, ample time for alliances to change etc. and civs to forget who we were trading with in the BC years before we build the UN. My own suggestion would be to trade with Caesar first, since (until we can establish he doesn't have iron) he's the guy we least want to be at war with. Then India. Alex and Mao last, as I suspect they're the guys we're most likely to want to go to war with anyway.

 

[Thrallia]

yeah, that was my thought also. I thought there weren't any, but right now it really wouldn't matter anyway since of the 5 civs we know, only Vicky knows more than 1 AI. I will likely sign OB with at least one AI for further exploration, probably Alex since I would really like to see his land so we know whether to prepare for war against him.

Here's my initial thoughts(I won't play until tomorrow):
Diplomacy: Mao is the only civ with any resources to trade us, but we don't have anything he wants except horses, so I figure we gift Rome and India our extra clams. OB with Alex or Julius to further exploration.

Tech: Finish IW, if Lighthouse still hasn't been built, then go for Masonry, otherwise go for Alphabet for backfilling our techs. Every AI knows two other civs, so we shouldn't have any issues with trading.

Wonders: I think it may be nearing do or die for the Lighthouse, and we may be able to chop it in just a few turns, but I want everyone's input on this. Also, I checked the stats screen, and India is the civ that built Stonehenge(side note, I think the two teams that are vastly higher than us in score at this point built wonders-stonehenge and oracle, not founded religions)

Socially: I will keep St. Pete on settler production and after Moscow grows to size 6 I'll put it on worker production. I think we should not settle any more cities until we get IW though so as not to slow down this very important tech. Also, Cow city will be the next one I settle, Gandhi doesn't have sailing yet so there's no rush for the other site(I know this because he doesn't yet know Julius, whom he would meet almost immediately if he had sailing)

Also, from the resource screen, I can see what resources the AIs have that we don't and thus far only Mao has anything we don't have(Julius has horses and fish, Vicky has clam and horses, Gandhi has fish, Alex has clams, Mao has clams and fish). Check out the exotic foreign advisor if you haven't...it gives a ton of info it is extremely hard to find out otherwise.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

yeah, that was my thought also. I thought there weren't any, but right now it really wouldn't matter anyway since of the 5 civs we know, only Vicky knows more than 1 AI. I will likely sign OB with at least one AI for further exploration, probably Alex since I would really like to see his land so we know whether to prepare for war against him.

If you do, then keep a careful watch for galleys and be ready to close the OB immediately if you see one that is carrying a settler to somewhere we want to settle. (Can you close OB any time or do you have to wait at least 10 turns after you agreed them? Anyone know?).

Tech: Finish IW, if Lighthouse still hasn't been built, then go for Masonry, otherwise go for Alphabet for backfilling our techs. Every AI knows two other civs, so we shouldn't have any issues with trading.

Wonders: I think it may be nearing do or die for the Lighthouse, and we may be able to chop it in just a few turns, but I want everyone's input on this.

Well, a couple of points.

• Lighthouse is definitely useful, but the thing that makes me very iffy about it is the tieing up of a large number of hammers, which is what's making me nervous about it, and the reason why I haven't particularly thought of including it in our gameplan.
• Its usefulness grows strongly with the number of cities we have. If, say, we're planning on keeping to 8-10 cities throughout the game, then it probably won't be that useful. If we're planning to go a-conquering on a large scale so that our diplo victory comes to a large extent from us having so many votes ourselves, then the lighthouse would be incredibly useful. I don't think we've ever really discussed as a team which of those strategies we are going to opt for. Perhaps it's time to do that? Perhaps a legitimate strategy might even be that we try building the lighthouse and then if we pull it off, then we go conquering, if we don't then we try to stay smallish and confine ourselves to just taking out near neighbours to make sure we're the biggest civ.
• Related issue: great library, colossus both very useful too. Ditto hanging gardens (more for the engineer). If we go for lighthouse, do we make it harder to build one of those?
• Personally I'd be strongly opposed to any wonder-building that interferes with getting settlers to all unoccupied land asap. After that point, I'd be open to pursuasion. We'd need to do a careful audit of which town can build it fastest, I suspect that would be Coppertownski, which means suspending at least some military production. There might be an argument for that, and for building a few units for defence, then building great lighthouse, and only then thinking about military production to invade someone (Alex?):You see, with so many AIs all the land will be taken very quickly. Normally in Civ, going to war early is a good idea because you're squishing a few neighbours before they have time to get very powerful, but in this case, the likelihood that some neighbours have already got as big (in terms of no. of cities) as they are ever likely to get. eg. it's possible that Alex is already totally blocked in with his two cities. If that's the case then going to war later is not a problem at all, as long as we don't get behind in research in the meantime (And if we cottage up our island quickly, we won't). However, this would be a change of direction from what we seem to have already agreed for Cski, so I think we'd need some discussion/consensus first on that.

Socially: I will keep St. Pete on settler production and after Moscow grows to size 6 I'll put it on worker production. I think we should not settle any more cities until we get IW though so as not to slow down this very important tech.

No danger of that, our next settler isn't scheduled for completion till the turn before we discover IW.

Also, Cow city will be the next one I settle, Gandhi doesn't have sailing yet so there's no rush for the other site(I know this because he doesn't yet know Julius, whom he would meet almost immediately if he had sailing)

If iron pops up anywhere then I suggest the settler heads for the iron (especially if it's on the island, which I have to say wouldn't at all surprise me)

 

[Dagnabit]

Tech: Finish IW, if Lighthouse still hasn't been built, then go for Masonry, otherwise go for Alphabet for backfilling our techs. Every AI knows two other civs, so we shouldn't have any issues with trading.

Wonders: I think it may be nearing do or die for the Lighthouse, and we may be able to chop it in just a few turns, but I want everyone's input on this. Also, I checked the stats screen, and India is the civ that built Stonehenge(side note, I think the two teams that are vastly higher than us in score at this point built wonders-stonehenge and oracle, not founded religions)

We don't even have a lighthouse yet. Even if we go to masonry before finishing IW, stop building work boat in Moscow and start Lighthouse(90H), it will take about 6 turns to complete Masonry (poprush light house to finish same time). The Great Lighthouse is 300H or 30Turns(6 or so less with 2 forrest chops,9 less if we can get a third in time) and if we want to decimate Moscow we can save another 5 turns with a final poprush. Minimum of 6+30-9-5=22turns. I don't know how late the Greatlighthouse can be built but this seems pretty iffy. I would also urge to finish IW first and that is another 5? turns (Don't have the save open at the moment).

With not a lot of experience in wonder building, do any of you teammates know where to look for estimated wonder completion dates or strategies for completing same. I need to learn a little more about them. I know the Great library has been mentioned and I would like to research that also.

 

[Thrallia]

hm...that's true, I looked in the civilopedia for hammer requirements and for some reason didn't take into account epic speed, so I was assuming the lighthouse was 60 hammers and the Great Lighthouse was 200...that would have been much easier to fit in. Generally on monarch the Great Lighthouse will be built around 200BC-700BC, but with 18 civs, there's a lot of industrious civs out there that could build it...the bonus being that we've got the stupid AI that doesn't know to build a lighthouse specifically for it or to chop it.

Since the hammers are 50% more than I thought they were, I'd say scrap the Lighthouse and go for the Library as our first wonder...Colossus after that and Hanging Gardens afterward. Note that we should try to build the Hanging Gardens somewhere other than where we build the Colossus and Library...we should also prioritize the Hagia Sophia when we get to the middle ages because it gives GE points also along with giving faster workers.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I will likely sign OB with at least one AI for further exploration, probably Alex since I would really like to see his land so we know whether to prepare for war against him.

Frankly I'd prefer not to sign any OBs at present. The AI already know we're weak militarily at present. I'm not keen on them finding out just how weakly defended our cities are. The one sure thing with Alex is that he will attack. The only question is when. We already have a fairly large chunk of land and I suspect we'll find later that it's the largest that any one civ has.

Diplomacy: Mao is the only civ with any resources to trade us, but we don't have anything he wants except horses, so I figure we gift Rome and India our extra clams. OB with Alex or Julius to further exploration.

Is there a need to trade anything yet? IIRC nobody is annoyed at us yet. Besides we probably want our clams to help regrow our cities after whipping anyway.

Tech: Finish IW, if Lighthouse still hasn't been built, then go for Masonry, otherwise go for Alphabet for backfilling our techs. Every AI knows two other civs, so we shouldn't have any issues with trading.

Wonders: I think it may be nearing do or die for the Lighthouse, and we may be able to chop it in just a few turns, but I want everyone's input on this. Also, I checked the stats screen, and India is the civ that built Stonehenge(side note, I think the two teams that are vastly higher than us in score at this point built wonders-stonehenge and oracle, not founded religions)

I'm with DynamicSpirit on this. The Great Library is far more desirable than the Great Lighthouse. His point about tieing up a city at this stage is also pertinent. Dagnabit makes a good point about the lead time and prerequisites for the Great Lighthouse. I believe the Oracle was not built by any civ we know.

Also, Cow city will be the next one I settle, Gandhi doesn't have sailing yet so there's no rush for the other site(I know this because he doesn't yet know Julius, whom he would meet almost immediately if he had sailing)

Again I agree with DynamicSpirit's view here. In fact it's another reason for not sending our galley exploring just yet. The last thing we want is for Julius to get our iron and then build praets.

Whilst Ghandi may not yet have Sailing he's likely to get it sharpish as soon as he runs out of land to settle.

EDIT:

we should also prioritize the Hagia Sophia when we get to the middle ages because it gives GE points also along with giving faster workers.

Hanging Gardens gives GE points as I know from SGOTM01.

 

[Thrallia]

yep, that's why I say get the Hagia Sophia as well in the same city...that'd give us two wonders with free GE points.

Extra copies of a resource do nothing for us, thus there's no reason to keep them, and if we trade them to the people who don't have them right now, it will go ahead and start getting them happier with us. You can't start grooming friendships too early when going for a diplo victory

Right now no one except us has Sailing out of the 5 civs we know, so I don't see any reason not to get OB with Alex and we can always cancel it if we see a galley come from him. without an OB he can't get past Moscow so there's no fear at all from him.

My main thought for getting an OB with Alex is that I can send our scout over there and get our galley back in time to settle on that island if iron pops up.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My main thought for getting an OB with Alex is that I can send our scout over there and get our galley back in time to settle on that island if iron pops up.

All good ideas except that our scout is currently fogbusting . Move him before we have something to replace him and we risk barb archers appearing at a time when we have no significant defence. OTOH we have a chariot that'll be built very soon so perhaps that'll allow you to rejig our fogbusters during your turnset? Or perhaps you could build another scout in Moscow at some point when it's pop is growing back from poprushing? If not we can just leave the OB till a bit later, as per Sam_Yeager's comments. We certainly want to explore Alex's territory but it probably makes no difference whether we do that now or in 20 turns time. I doubt that anything we find out now will change our strategy for the next couple of turnsets.

btw the team scores are making me think that Murky Waters and Gypsy Kings both went to war sometime around 500-700BC. Ditto Pioneer Knights on the Warlord side.