SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

He currently can't built elephants, and if we pillage the camps before they go back under his culture he won't be able to.

Is this right? At the moment the elephants may not be within his culture but surely they're still connected?

I can't see the game so can you tell me how many military we've got left in Alex's and Mao's lands? By my count we've lost 4 units. Unless we've reinforced from Ctownski that only leaves 3 or 4 units?

If you saw an elephant heading for Sparta do we have enough forces to hold it? Even more to the point what's the likelihood of Alex sending a few archers?

I suppose the question is should be looking for peace against both Alex & Mao whilst we still hold their cities. Or can we hold those cities for long enough to actually attack them further?

Ctown is building a forge, which is 10 turns from completion. We should attempt to build the Colossus there afterward.

Can we afford this or do we need Ctownski to build military for us?

EDIT: Btw did we get anything decent in Beijing?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is this right? At the moment the elephants may not be within his culture but surely they're still connected?

I can't see the game so can you tell me how many military we've got left in Alex's and Mao's lands? By my count we've lost 4 units. Unless we've reinforced from Ctownski that only leaves 3 or 4 units?

I've just been looking at the save. Here's the screenshot...



I'm not sure what Thrallia means about the ivory returning to Mao's culture, as it looks unlikely that Mao will regain control of them. I think we've enough units to hold Beijing and Sparta, though it's iffy whether we have enough to hold them AND attack somewhere else. Mao cannot use the ivory unless it's within his culture (assuming he doesn't have some other ivory we've not seen).

We have one axe in Beijing, 2 swords N of it, 1 axe W, and a sword and an axe just near Guangzhou. Sparta has a spearman.

I suppose the question is should be looking for peace against both Alex & Mao whilst we still hold their cities. Or can we hold those cities for long enough to actually attack them further?

I'm erring against peace with either, partly because I could imagine one of them taking advantage of a peace treaty to plant another city between Sparta and Shanghai, which we definitely don't want.

Can we afford this or do we need Ctownski to build military for us?

My gut first impression is that we can afford it now since our military strength on Mao's continent is quite good; and there's an additional reason to build Colossus now as well. Shanghai and Nanjing, which I assume will end up in our possession before too long, are very close and will probably end up using a lot of sea tiles (darned no city razing. If it wasn't for that, I'd have planned to take Shanghai and raze Nanjing)

EDIT: Btw did we get anything decent in Beijing?

We did! It has granary, lighthouse and academy!

 

[Thrallia]

sweet, I didn't even look at the buildings in Beijing That academy is probably why Mao had such fast research!

The only reason I can think of to get peace with either Alex or Mao, is to get the rest of construction from Alex. Then we could turn our attention to perhaps researching CoL so we could reduce our likely fairly large maintenance penalties.

edit: the reason I thought one of the ivories might return to Mao's culture is because Shanghai's culture looks off kilter, now that I look closer that's because of the close ocean to it.

As for our military...we've got enough military to take Shanghai and probably Nanjing also right now...Athens and Guangzhou are both out of reach currently and likely will require construction to break.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thanks! Can you remember where exactly that elephant heading towards Sparta is? Also, any other forces you know about other than the ones stationed in Shanghai and Nanjing? (eg. anything guarding that iron?) Just so I know exactly what I'm up against if I do move forces that way.

 

[Thrallia]

When I saw the elephant, it was on the roaded jungle next to Shanghai. I assume it is currently on the non-roaded jungle in the fog between Sparta and Shanghai, that's the only move that makes sense, although the AI doesn't often make sensible military decisions.

as for the iron...there might have been a single archer guarding it, but definitely nothing else.

 

[Thrallia]

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL YOU GEEZERS!!! i

 

[Sam_Yeager]

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL YOU GEEZERS!!! i

Thank you for your good wishes

 

[Sam_Yeager]

We have one axe in Beijing, 2 swords N of it, 1 axe W, and a sword and an axe just near Guangzhou. Sparta has a spearman.

Beijing looks safe(ish). However Sparta with an unpromoted(?) spear with Mao's elephant on the way looks a bit more dubious. Especially if Alex decides to send a few archers. I think Sparta probably needs a few reinforcements.

 

[Thrallia]

if the elephant is on its way still, it will be at least two more turns before it reaches sparta, by which time we could send 2 axes back for defense.

I also have the worker there chopping the forest, which would get the spear being built out in I think 3 turns along with lots of overflow.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I've had a quick look at the save and it strikes me that the forces from Guangzhou may well be a worry. I believe that they have a reasonable chance of retaking Beijing on the interturn.

With two injured units to the north and our other uninjured units more than a turn away this may cause problems.

EDIT: Of course Mao may send them to invade our lands instead. In which case we have a pretty good chance of sending them to the bottom. However the AI does tend to be a bit fanatical about retaking it's cities and this one's the capital.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This is really going to come down to how great a risk we are willing to take (bigger risk -> bigger potential reward), in terms of relaxing our defence in Beijing-Sparta in order to nab other cities. The lowest I guess we could go would be one defender in each town, with a third positioned between them. If we pillage the road on the two forest squares SW of Beijing, then we'll be guaranteed 1 turn warning before an attack on Beijing, or 2 turns before an attack on Sparta. We could also position galleys or leave a unit in the forest to observe if anything leaves Guangzhou.

Personally I'm not so worried about the units in Guangzhou as they're mainly archers, and seeing as it's now Mao's capital I suspect he'll leave at least 3 of them defending it, whatever happens (if Mao was a human player I'd be a lot more worried). The two galleys do suggest he's building a force to invade somewhere by sea (maybe he'll do the classic AI trick of committing suicide by launching his invasion force at the very point when his troops are required to defend Guangzhou... ).

My own instinct is to press the attack as quickly as possible once enough of our units are healed, since Mao and Alex between them have vastly more production capacity on that island than we currently do and they are certainly building more units. I'd be inclined to circle around, taking Nanjing first (since it has no walls, there's forest/jungle we can bed down in next to it, and it gives Mao his iron), then Shanghai if we have sufficient forces left. If we get bogged down doing that, then to sit it out and wait till we can ship some catapults from our mainland.

 

[markh]

Had a look at the save and I am very concerned about taking more cities. Our science is already down and I fear that we get into a very big hole. Furthermore we do not produce any units being at war. As we are building up infra I would go to peace sooner than later and get our economy in shape to be able to afford having more cities.

 

[Thrallia]

On the other hand...the gold from taking cities should be able to get us through construction/CoL...at which point we would need peace anyway. The cities Mao has are very good ones and with courthouses would very quickly allow us to take the reigns of the game(after a short slowdown in science, that is). I personally think we should at least take away Shanghai and Nanjing from China, we don't want Mao able to build anything except archers, like Alex. Then we could peace him and Alex for some techs(I still think it worthwhile to peace Alex for construction if he'll have it...it'd save us a few turns of research). We can trade for Calendar with one of two other civs, and the only civs in danger of passing us in tech are Rome and India...both of which will be our friends and whom we could catch up to once we got our lands all working.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm not entirely convinced by this idea of taking further cities, mainly because I have doubts about holding our existing cities. However, if we're going to take more cities then we need more military. And that means Ctownski building military.

I know the Colussus would be great but I look at Alex with eight archers, and galleys with which to transport them, and Guangzhou with it's military, Beijing with one unit as defence, and I can only think that we're running too light on our military.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Our headline science rate is certainly not looking good (currently 30% is our breakeven point), but part of the reason for that is our cities are mostly pretty small - and in the long run solving that does require more happiness resources, so ISTM there isn't much doubt that we need Mao's other cities on that island in the not too distant future (that will give us silk and dye to add to the ivory we'll take as soon as Beijing comes out of revolt). The colossus will help our economy a lot especially now we're working more sea tiles. ISTM that currency and calendar are as important as code of laws, as they'll both give us sizeable income boosts. And as Thrallia points out, capturing cities will give us boosts anyway which may get us to key technologies.

There doesn't seem to be any significant consensus yet on what we should do next, which is making me nervous about starting my turnset, and I'm hearing good arguments on both sides of the debate. Would it be sufficiently acceptable to people if I move towards taking Nanjing/Shanghai as soon as it looks like our forces are capable of doing so (which probably won't be immediately, though I may decide we're ready to do it some turns down the line, depending how things turn out?)

 

[markh]

I do not know which way is best. I am just a little concerned as we should play a fast science game and it feels like a fast conquest game. I am surely convinced that we need the cities from Alex and Mao, but I am not sure whether we need them this early.

We took the path of fast conquering, so I would say go on with it and see what you can get, Simon.

 

[Dagnabit]

Just returned from hectic 4days flying coast to coast US and back. A belated Merry Christmas! Can't download the save to take a look until I find my CD which I packed for the trip-just incase I had time to play Which I didn't .

Good job Thraillia! I wouldn't have had the boldness to hit Mao that quick. I do agree it would be nice to deprive him of a couple more cities and gain happiness resources If we can-but If Alex has galleys left I am also concerned about him counter attacking Sparta. Do we have enough Galleys(there I go again) to sink his troops if sorteed? Also would a couple of galleys be able to blockade Athens or Mao's city with the galleys or troops?

With research at 30% sustained does that take into account the additional hits we will take when Mao's cities come out of revolt? If not I think taking another City for its gold may be the only way we can hold on to our research much past construction. I also agree we should try and get Alex to give up construction for peace on every turn.

Will try and have a look at the save later this afternoon.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I do not know which way is best. I am just a little concerned as we should play a fast science game and it feels like a fast conquest game. I am surely convinced that we need the cities from Alex and Mao, but I am not sure whether we need them this early.

Both the points that mark makes

• Conquering rather than science.
• Do we need Alex's and Mao's cities just yet.

are the concerns I have. An associated concern is that Alex and/or Mao will manage to successfully counter attack and that our position will unravel.

We took the path of fast conquering, so I would say go on with it and see what you can get, Simon.

Well, mark's the captain and although I'm somewhat concerned at how things have turned out I agree that we have to live with the fact that we are at war. I think most of the discussion is really how best to do it.

Both Thrallia and DynamicSpirit seem to to feel that we can make further progress with our current military. I personally feel that the risk of counter attack, particularly from Alex on Sparta, and the proposal to attack more of Mao's cities requires additional military. I think that this divergence in views is what needs to be addressed. However I have made my concerns known. If the majority agree with Thrallia and DynamicSpirit views then I'll fall in line and cross my fingers and hope I'm wrong.

 

[Dagnabit]

I just found my Civ CD and had a quick look at the save. Ithink we are reeeeally thin! Only 5 Swords, 3 Axe, 1 Spear and only 3 galleys to defend 2 cities both with a great possibility of counterattack. 2 swords are badly wounded at that and what is more worrisome is that we currently have no troops in the pipeline. If our current galleys get swallowed up trying to stop a sortee then there isn't even a way to get troops off our islands to help. Sparta is doomed if either Mao or Alex attacks within the next 4 turns or so.

Preliminary thoughts on some adjustments:

1. The wounded sword and axe will heal faster if brought into city. Western axe should avoid contact with the elephant?? (is it east of horses in fog?) but move around western sideof peak and return to help sparta.
2. Before turn end move one of St Pete's Chariots toward Sparta. Hopefully we can get him across before we need the galley.
3. Think about Poprushing both galleys under production. I think it is about 5 turns Moscow's galley has 22 needing 53. In 4 turns at 2 a turn it can be poprushed for only 1 pop (45)
4. After St Pete's Lib think about another defender their in case Mao/Alex tries to land on our island instead of retaking their cities.
5. We don't have anyway to get troops from coppertownski quickly with the galleys need elsewhere so I would continue the Forge. New Novegard needs the Rax but I think should switch to axe and be ready for poprushing if things turn ugly for Sparta. Moscow should make an axe or sword following Galley.
6. I hope we have time and don't have to revert back to production but we have bitten off quite a chunk of the dragon's tail and he is not happy.
7 Novegard is about to grow and is already working 1 unimproved sea tile. The new pop should definately work the cottage but we will need a workboat in the near future or we will be very slow in getting the rest of it's cottageable tiles worked (presumably our worker can stay ahead of growth)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

OK. Here goes... Till death do us part. Or 10 turns, whichever is the shorter.

The Page 3 Pinups:




The Summary:

The bad news: We haven't won a diplomatic victory yet. Mao has longbows. Our units now cost us 10gpt + 1 for supply
The good news: Peace has broken out all round. We have lots of gold from Mao, construction from Alex, calendar from Cyrus, and currency is 5 turns away. We are in first place in score, and we have a great scientist. We have two chariots about to start exploring Rome and our scout is on his way to India.
The neutral news: No cities changed hands. Mao likes building cities close together (I'm starting to suspect he designed Hong Kong).

The Boring Bit:

Turn 0 (180). Examined map. Shifted cows from New Novgorod to Rostov.

IBT: Mao's chariot attackes Beijing from SW. Our axe just survives. (He's 0.5 points away from my turnset starting with losing Beijing, before I've even moved any units!) St Petersburg builds: library -> Lighthouse (we can't poprush for 29 turns and it has no production so no point building military).

181. Poprush barracks in New Novgorod. That elephant shows up by Sparta, forcing worker to stop forest chopping. Pillage road by Guangzhou. Move 1 injured sword towards Sparta and other units into Beijing. Galley into Beijing to heal. Start moving scout down south in case he can do anything useful (With Rostov founded he's no longer required for fogbusting).

IBT: Hatty offers OB. I accept as I think we want to be friends with her.

182: New Novgorod starts archer. I move galleys to watch Athens and Guangzhou. Athens now has 8 archers, 2 galleys, 1 settler. Guangzhou has 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 chariot, 4 archers, 2 galleys.

IBT: Mao's elephant pillages a hamlet.

183. OK I'm now worried. Alex appears to have added TWO catapults to his Athens garrison. How the heck...? Pillage other road by Guangzhou, so Beijing is now safe from surprise attacks from that direction. St. P is unhappy but still is unhappy from previous poprush, so I put two scientists there, even though that means it's now slightly starving.

IBT: Alex launches his invasion force. 2 galleys with 2 archers and two cats. Mao's elephant continues the pillaging.

184. Galley moves to block Alex. I would poprush galley in Moscow but I've miscalculated hammers (forgot its epic speed so 45 hammers per poprush), and it's now only 1 pop for galley, so I put axe ahead in build queue to poprush that too. Also start shifting units Beijing->Sparta, as I've no idea which continent Alex will land on. Lodestone City completes galley. ->Axe

IBT. Mao launches his invasion force: 2 galleys with 2 archers/sword/chariot. Wow, isn't this getting exciting...

185. Our Guangzhou galley moves to block Mao's fleet. Galley by St P with chariot/sword positons so can offload to either continent, as I still don't know what Alex will do. I put a chariot in St P's production queue for 1 turn, just in case...

IBT. Ooops, blocking Mao's galley might not have been a smart move. It heads west instead, that means likely attack on Lodestone City. Mao's elephant is pillaging everything around Sparta and there's not much we can do about it (it's stronger than the spear)

186: Hoooray! Alex offers construction for peace. I accept. Ooops - we've not made any group decision on what to research next, have we! I pick currency, thinking of the +10ish gold boost from the +1 trade route. Beijing comes out of revolt, which means we now have ivory, although only in Beijing and Sparta. I pick library to build first. Galleys start heading towards Lodestone City.

IBT. A Chinese chariot appears in forest to SW of Beijing.

187. New Novgorod: Archer->Catapult. Our Galley that has healed in Beijing discovers Hangzhou (with galley/spearman/archer). I move sword/axe to pillage around Nanjing. Caesar won't trade with us because 'we fear you are becoming too advanced'. At some point he made peace with Vicky. We now have 2nd gems hooked up so I give them to Hatty. Poprush library in Novgorod.

IBT. Cyrus offers OB. I refuse as not sure where he stands with other civs (Checking afterwards: He's actually in the Hatty-Frederick friendship block, so it would've been OK but I didn't know). Mao's invasion fleet appears SE of Lodestone Isle.

188. Lodestone: Axe -> barracks. Sparta: spear->granary. Our loaded galley arrives just in time to offload some defence onto Lodestone Island and move to block Mao's galleys. Moscow: Poprush catapult (galley next). NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Hangzhou now has a spear and a longbow. Sparta's borders have popped so I now trade with Cyrus: Calendar for construction/monotheism. He's now pleased with us. Guangzhou has 3 longbows + axe. YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! I discover Mao is willing to give us 290 gold plus 3 gpt for peace. I decide that's a deal I can't refuse! The peace also means Muskovy Isle can now access the ivory, so St P is no longer starving.

IBT. Nothing.

189. Moscow is about to build galley, but our units are now costing us 9gpt, so I slip in workboat ahead.

IBT. Nothing.

190. Cski: Force->Colossus. Moscow. Workboat->Workboat. I suggest delaying that galley as long as possible; we don't need it yet and it'll cost us maintenance. We have our first great scientist in Moscow, Zu Chongzhi!, courtesy of all those scientists we've been working the last two turnsets.