@Sam -If you are only dropping 1 chariot in Rome, what about swapping the other in Lodestone with the 2 good troops there and taking them to Sparta? There should be sufficient time to build up Lodestones garrison and this gets troops to the front a little quicker.
SGOTM 03 - Geezers
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Good point although I think I'll leave one of the good troops there as insurance against Mao. As there seem to be no major objections to my plan of action I'll play now.
New Novgorod could work about 10 cottages, which I think would make it a good commerce city with some useful production. Athens can work just 2 cottages, hence not good as a commerce city
Yeah, I'd be inclined to get 4 catapults over there - that means it'd take 2 turns to knock down his defences. Add, say, two more units (two elephants?) and we should be able to take Athens while leaving enough defence in Sparta and Beijing. I'd also add a couple of archers, as they are cheap to build and good to leave defending cities, freeing up our CR-promoted axes/swords to go out and do some CR-ing. The trick is going to be not building too many of these units too far before we want to use them in battle.
I think Nanjing has size 2 borders. All the tiles near Beijing it would add to Mao's culture when it pops are already covered by Shanghai's culture.
Actually we know (from the tech-trading screen) that he has construction. To be honest that doesn't bother me remotely since the AI doesn't know how to use cats effectively.
If you look at the resources screen you'll see that Alex has iron surplus and yet Mao appears to have none.Also Alex is using copper even though we didn't see any when we scouted Athens. Mao and Alex definitely seem to be good buddies.
Ummm - ummm - mutter
- the export-surplus column tells us that Alex wants iron, and that we have a surplus of it available to trade to him. The copper in his export-used column tells us that he wants copper too, but in this case we are using our only supply of it. It's the 3rd and 4th columns that tell us if AIs have any resource that we don't have. If they have a resource that we have too, then we can deduce that from the the resource failing to appear in their 'wants' lists.Fair enough. So I take it you're thinking of building military up so someone at a near future turnset will have the strength to take Athens? (I think cats are the things we most need for that).
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Summary
Quiet set of turns after the excitement of the last two turnsets.
We've met Tokugawa (Annoyed) ,who is at war with Ghandi, and Saladin (Annoyed). Built a couple of cats (sitting in Moscow) with a third on the way. Colossus successfully built. The majority of roman and indian islands have been scouted. We're connected by road from Coppertownski round to Moscow.
Turn 0 - 350 AD
Moved a sword out of Lodestone for collection and foolishly hit the end turn button too early so that was it.
Turn 1- 365 AD
Dropped off a chariot in Arretium, picked up the sword from Lodestone island and dropped off the other chariot. MM'd Moscow for production and chnaged the build to barracks. Moved an axe from Beijing towards Sparta. Sent the GS in Moscow towards SP.
Turn 2 - 380 AD
The world continued turning.
Turn 3 - 395 AD
Built academy in SP. MM'd SP to stop growing and use another hammer.
Turn 4 - 410 AD
Our scout in Ghandi's land meets Tokugawa (Confucian & Annoyed). Realise later that he is at war with Ghandi. Drop off sword for Sparta. Rush the library in Beijing. Courtesy of the log I learnt that Julius completed the Great Library.
Turn 5 - 425 AD
Currency learnt. Set research to Drama but reduce science to 0%. We need the money anyway. Start barracks in Beijing. Belatedly remember to trade crab to Ghandi for incense.
IBT:
Cyrus offers Code of Laws for Metal Casting. Very tempted but decline as he's in Hatty's bad books.
Turn 6 - 440 AD
The peace treaty with Alex expires without incident. Lodestone finishes barracks and starts a sword. New Novogorod finishes a cat and starts another.
Turn 7 - 455 AD
Move workers towards Moscow.
[Turn 8 - 470 AD[/b]
The peace treaty with Mao expires without incident. The elephant that had been lurking to the east in the woods had disappeared a couple of turns ago. So I had moved a spear from Sparta to Beijing as a precaution.
IBT:
Hatty turns up offering an excellent trade. Fur for iron. I politely decline.
Turn 9 - 485 AD
The world continues spinning on it's axis.
IBT:
We meet Saladin (Judaism & Annoyed). We have a demerit for trading with his worst enemy. The trouble is trying to find out who that could be. The Glance screen shows nothing obvious. However the Relations screen shows he dislikes Huayna but this is not reflected in the Glance screen.
Turn 10 - 500 AD
Coppertownski finally finishes the Colossus. Defer the temple and start a sword but this can be changed if wanted as it has no hammers invested. Judaism spreads in Rostov.
Handover
The sword in Lodestone finishes next turn. Moscow will finish the barracks next turn and is probably a better place to build military than New Novogorod.
Both Alex and Mao have been busy building roads up to our borders. Possibly innocuous but I'm always suspicious of those two.
We need to decide whether to continue with Drama as the next tech. The Col for MC trade with Cyrus is still on the table if we want to do it.
EDIT:
Roster :
Thrallia
Simon
Sam - just played
Dagnabit - UP
Htadus- on deck
Mark
Quiet set of turns after the excitement of the last two turnsets.
We've met Tokugawa (Annoyed) ,who is at war with Ghandi, and Saladin (Annoyed). Built a couple of cats (sitting in Moscow) with a third on the way. Colossus successfully built. The majority of roman and indian islands have been scouted. We're connected by road from Coppertownski round to Moscow. Turn 0 - 350 AD
Moved a sword out of Lodestone for collection and foolishly hit the end turn button too early so that was it.
Turn 1- 365 AD
Dropped off a chariot in Arretium, picked up the sword from Lodestone island and dropped off the other chariot. MM'd Moscow for production and chnaged the build to barracks. Moved an axe from Beijing towards Sparta. Sent the GS in Moscow towards SP.
Turn 2 - 380 AD
The world continued turning.
Turn 3 - 395 AD
Built academy in SP. MM'd SP to stop growing and use another hammer.
Turn 4 - 410 AD
Our scout in Ghandi's land meets Tokugawa (Confucian & Annoyed). Realise later that he is at war with Ghandi. Drop off sword for Sparta. Rush the library in Beijing. Courtesy of the log I learnt that Julius completed the Great Library.
Turn 5 - 425 AD
Currency learnt. Set research to Drama but reduce science to 0%. We need the money anyway. Start barracks in Beijing. Belatedly remember to trade crab to Ghandi for incense.
IBT:
Cyrus offers Code of Laws for Metal Casting. Very tempted but decline as he's in Hatty's bad books.
Turn 6 - 440 AD
The peace treaty with Alex expires without incident. Lodestone finishes barracks and starts a sword. New Novogorod finishes a cat and starts another.
Turn 7 - 455 AD
Move workers towards Moscow.
[Turn 8 - 470 AD[/b]
The peace treaty with Mao expires without incident. The elephant that had been lurking to the east in the woods had disappeared a couple of turns ago. So I had moved a spear from Sparta to Beijing as a precaution.
IBT:
Hatty turns up offering an excellent trade. Fur for iron.
I politely decline.Turn 9 - 485 AD
The world continues spinning on it's axis.
IBT:
We meet Saladin (Judaism & Annoyed). We have a demerit for trading with his worst enemy. The trouble is trying to find out who that could be. The Glance screen shows nothing obvious. However the Relations screen shows he dislikes Huayna but this is not reflected in the Glance screen.
Turn 10 - 500 AD
Coppertownski finally finishes the Colossus. Defer the temple and start a sword but this can be changed if wanted as it has no hammers invested. Judaism spreads in Rostov.
Handover
The sword in Lodestone finishes next turn. Moscow will finish the barracks next turn and is probably a better place to build military than New Novogorod.
Both Alex and Mao have been busy building roads up to our borders. Possibly innocuous but I'm always suspicious of those two.
We need to decide whether to continue with Drama as the next tech. The Col for MC trade with Cyrus is still on the table if we want to do it.
Spoiler :
EDIT:
Roster :
Thrallia
Simon
Sam - just played
Dagnabit - UP
Htadus- on deck
Mark
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Ummm - ummm - mutter
Pfft! Stupid screen. Why can't it be clearer?
its got a lot of information on it, and since I think Simon and I are the only ones here who've used the HOF mod before, its certainly understandable to make a couple mistakes reading it...it took me a couple months to figure out the resource screen.
Techwise:
I'd do the trade with Cyrus...Hatty and Cyrus don't like each other, but they aren't worst enemies, which means they won't care. She's very liberal with tech trading herself.
Drama for our next research looks great to me. Theatres are a must very soon. and trading for CoL gets us courthouses as well.
Also, thanks to Colossus,it appears our breakeven point is now 40%, with us barely losing any cash at 50% and the ability to research drama in 6 turns at 50%! I think we could now almost afford to take over the rest of that continent...not quite, but before 1000AD we should be able to.
Diplomatically:
Julius is now pleased with us.
Saladin only knows us, Hatty, and Toku...he doesn't like Toku, but appears to have an OB with Hatty...he may just be in a sour mood this game because he has no iron, thus will never be able to build camel archers
It appears half the AIs don't have access to iron. That leaves us in good shape down the road if we need to take anyone else out. Also, we're #1 in population as far as we can tell...Mao is #2. Once we take him out we'll have about 15% of the world's population. Hopefully #2 will become someone we don't like...Hatty is AFAWK(as far as we know), so hopefully someone we don't know is bigger than her, or hopefully she starts losing her war with Huayna a little.
Julius and Vicky like each other again...so we should get an OB with Vicky and explore her lands as well. Its a good thing we got Julius pleased with us fast, Rome has Iron right next to it...we'd never have stood a chance if we had given him an excuse to fight us.
Overall:
Our GNP is #9 out of the 12 civs we know, it should increase greatly soon enough though
Our production capacity is #1, as is our food capacity
we've got the #3 land size, #6 population, and #6 army size, all according to demographics(according to victory screen we are #1 in pop and land area)
I would also suggest we never adopt a religion, since it appears all the religions were founded in different empires...that if we can get the UN built fast enough, we should be the only people without any religious penalties. We should just make good friends with the christians, and whatever other religions are big.(right now buddhism and confuscianism are #2 and 3 in % ofthe world)
edit: also, I'm going to rename the Greco-Chinese continent next turnset
it won't be greco-chinese much longer.
I'd do the trade with Cyrus...Hatty and Cyrus don't like each other, but they aren't worst enemies, which means they won't care. She's very liberal with tech trading herself.
Drama for our next research looks great to me. Theatres are a must very soon. and trading for CoL gets us courthouses as well.
Also, thanks to Colossus,it appears our breakeven point is now 40%, with us barely losing any cash at 50% and the ability to research drama in 6 turns at 50%! I think we could now almost afford to take over the rest of that continent...not quite, but before 1000AD we should be able to.
Diplomatically:
Julius is now pleased with us.
Saladin only knows us, Hatty, and Toku...he doesn't like Toku, but appears to have an OB with Hatty...he may just be in a sour mood this game because he has no iron, thus will never be able to build camel archers
It appears half the AIs don't have access to iron. That leaves us in good shape down the road if we need to take anyone else out. Also, we're #1 in population as far as we can tell...Mao is #2. Once we take him out we'll have about 15% of the world's population. Hopefully #2 will become someone we don't like...Hatty is AFAWK(as far as we know), so hopefully someone we don't know is bigger than her, or hopefully she starts losing her war with Huayna a little.
Julius and Vicky like each other again...so we should get an OB with Vicky and explore her lands as well. Its a good thing we got Julius pleased with us fast, Rome has Iron right next to it...we'd never have stood a chance if we had given him an excuse to fight us.
Overall:
Our GNP is #9 out of the 12 civs we know, it should increase greatly soon enough though
Our production capacity is #1, as is our food capacity
we've got the #3 land size, #6 population, and #6 army size, all according to demographics(according to victory screen we are #1 in pop and land area)
I would also suggest we never adopt a religion, since it appears all the religions were founded in different empires...that if we can get the UN built fast enough, we should be the only people without any religious penalties. We should just make good friends with the christians, and whatever other religions are big.(right now buddhism and confuscianism are #2 and 3 in % ofthe world)
edit: also, I'm going to rename the Greco-Chinese continent next turnset
it won't be greco-chinese much longer.
Pretty much agree with Thrallia. And looks like our science is getting much more healthy now 
A couple of points I'd add. We are looking like we urgently need more infrastructure, in particular:
That's all making me wonder if we should do some more poprushing, not for military, but to get our infrastructure more up to scratch. Maybe even postpone taking on Athens for a turnset or so?
Also, if we want to build the hanging gardens (so far I think we have me, Thrallia, Sam in favour, Mark against?) then somewhere needs to be building an aquaduct soon! Currently Cski would take 18 turns to build aquaduct + HG, Moscow is looking like 38 turns, but I'm guessing we could probably get that down to 25ish, with poprushing, hooking the stone etc. ISTM those are the only two cities with anything like enough production to even consider building HG. I guess whichever builds HG won't get its lighthouse for a bit
A couple of points I'd add. We are looking like we urgently need more infrastructure, in particular:
- Coppertownski needs a lighthouse so it can continue growing.
- Moscow could do with one too - that would allow us to continue poprushing, so we get additional commerce while still producing things.
- Lodestone City also needs a lighthouse if it's to grow much more.
- New Novgorod isn't yet working its new cottage.
- Sparta needs its fishing boat - its growth getting stunted, and it isn't working its village, partly due to its stunted growth.
- Rostov is about to grow but we haven't built any more cottages for it to work when it does.
- Beijing is doing fine.
- We haven't yet hooked up any of our spices (although there's a worker on one of them). We also have two gems in our borders that could be used for trading, but aren't hooked up yet - emphasizing we are short of workers.
That's all making me wonder if we should do some more poprushing, not for military, but to get our infrastructure more up to scratch. Maybe even postpone taking on Athens for a turnset or so?
Also, if we want to build the hanging gardens (so far I think we have me, Thrallia, Sam in favour, Mark against?) then somewhere needs to be building an aquaduct soon! Currently Cski would take 18 turns to build aquaduct + HG, Moscow is looking like 38 turns, but I'm guessing we could probably get that down to 25ish, with poprushing, hooking the stone etc. ISTM those are the only two cities with anything like enough production to even consider building HG. I guess whichever builds HG won't get its lighthouse for a bit
Demographics screen: Our population: 873 K (6th!!!) Rival best: 2.5 million.
Someone that we haven't met yet is very big. Wonder if it's the same person whose GNP is 111 (as opposed to our 48)?
Although it's very curious that despite that, we're no. 1 in crop yield, which is normally fairly well correlated with how big you are.
Someone that we haven't met yet is very big. Wonder if it's the same person whose GNP is 111 (as opposed to our 48)?
Although it's very curious that despite that, we're no. 1 in crop yield, which is normally fairly well correlated with how big you are.
At present Cyrus will only trade us code of laws OR horseback riding. How about we try this:
That could give us an additional 3 techs immediately. We might even get a net + in gold from it.
I think we're going to have to be careful with coordinating our research + trades in future. We're starting to get caught between the Gandhi-Vicky-Caesar block, who are shooting so far ahead that we risk having nothing to trade them, and the Hatty-Frederick block who are so far behind that they have nothing to trade to us, other than gold. By bad luck, the bunch of civs (Huayna, Toku, Mao, etc.) who are roughly level with us and thus in a position to trade techs are all our enemies who won't trade I'd consider researching compass or even machinery next. Drama would be very nice to have, but the trouble is it's so cheap that we probably won't be able to trade it for anything else. Compass might give us one or two trades, but machinery is expensive enough to probably give us a lot of trades (and it's on the path to guilds/banking/optics).
- Sell a tech cheaply to Hatty and Frederick - we can make 150 gold doing that. If we're willing to trade with hostile civs we can also get 20 gold off Toku and 90 off Huayna. And, ironically, we could even sell Alex something useless like metal casting for 40 gold. Or we could just demand it off him as tribute )
- See if that additional gold is enough for us to throw in to induce Cyrus to give us code of laws AND horseback riding (if it isn't, just accept COL).
- Immediately see if we can get monarchy off Caesar or Gandhi in return for COL (we may have to offer some gold too)
- If neither is willing to accept that deal, hold our science at 0% for a few turns and see if we can get enough gold to make a COL for monarchy deal work.
That could give us an additional 3 techs immediately. We might even get a net + in gold from it.
I think we're going to have to be careful with coordinating our research + trades in future. We're starting to get caught between the Gandhi-Vicky-Caesar block, who are shooting so far ahead that we risk having nothing to trade them, and the Hatty-Frederick block who are so far behind that they have nothing to trade to us, other than gold. By bad luck, the bunch of civs (Huayna, Toku, Mao, etc.) who are roughly level with us and thus in a position to trade techs are all our enemies who won't trade
I'd consider researching compass or even machinery next. Drama would be very nice to have, but the trouble is it's so cheap that we probably won't be able to trade it for anything else. Compass might give us one or two trades, but machinery is expensive enough to probably give us a lot of trades (and it's on the path to guilds/banking/optics).compass is actually something the AI very rarely researches fast, from what I've heard and read...perhaps Drama first so we can get those theatres, then compass and trade that to anyone and everyone we can. If we sell both of those techs we should be able to get a lot.
remember Simon, once we get our infrastructure up to snuff, we should be able to outpace our christian bloc. We've got a lot more land, production, and food yield than them...so we should be able to outpace anyone once we get our infrastructure going.
remember Simon, once we get our infrastructure up to snuff, we should be able to outpace our christian bloc. We've got a lot more land, production, and food yield than them...so we should be able to outpace anyone once we get our infrastructure going.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Compass is also on the path to the UN as well. However I would prefer Drama first. One of the benefits is that we can use the culture slider to resist cultural pressure. Although of course that does nothing for science until we manage to increase our gold.
I don't believe we can realitically attack and take out Alex for another 10 turns, possibly 15 to 20 turns as attacking Alex is quite likely trigger Mao into resuming war against us.
The more I think about it the less convinced I become about drama. The only city that needs to resist cultural pressure is Beijing, but even if we had drama, Wouldn't Beijing be better off building extra military units so that when Mao does attack, we can hold him off better, or solve the cultural pressure by taking more of his cities ?
?
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
The more I think about it the less convinced I become about drama. The only city that needs to resist cultural pressure is Beijing, but even if we had drama, Wouldn't Beijing be better off building extra military units so that when Mao does attack, we can hold him off better, or solve the cultural pressure by taking more of his cities
Of course the other use for the cultural slider is to combat WW. Given that Mao seems to have quite a few cities then we're likely to run into WW sooner rather than later once we get into a war with Mao.
However it's not a 'die in a ditch' issue. Compass & Optics is also an attractive path and moves us nearer to the UN.
Nice quiet set, Sam. We are in good shape.
We can have drama in 4 at 80%. I would do it for the theatres especially for Sparta and Beijing. From then on I would just research the lower path of the tech tree straight towards Mass Media (if anybody doesn't not know : just click on mass media and you see what techs you need). We can trade for the techs of the upper tree with that many trading partners.
Regarding cities I would build a forge next in Lodestone City.
As said New Novgorod can switch to a cottage. The same we can do at Coppertownski to start it growing again. A lighthouse then would be nice, too, although I would build 1 or 2 phants before and ship them over to Sparta and Beijing.
I am not sure whether the hanging gardens will be worth in our situation. In SGOTM01 we were more or less safe building it. Here we have a shaky situation with Sparta and Beijing and I do not know whether we will miss the units we could have built instead. Nevertheless it is a team decision and I will go with it gladly.
We can have drama in 4 at 80%. I would do it for the theatres especially for Sparta and Beijing. From then on I would just research the lower path of the tech tree straight towards Mass Media (if anybody doesn't not know : just click on mass media and you see what techs you need). We can trade for the techs of the upper tree with that many trading partners.
Regarding cities I would build a forge next in Lodestone City.
As said New Novgorod can switch to a cottage. The same we can do at Coppertownski to start it growing again. A lighthouse then would be nice, too, although I would build 1 or 2 phants before and ship them over to Sparta and Beijing.
I am not sure whether the hanging gardens will be worth in our situation. In SGOTM01 we were more or less safe building it. Here we have a shaky situation with Sparta and Beijing and I do not know whether we will miss the units we could have built instead. Nevertheless it is a team decision and I will go with it gladly.
I would prefer we build it, but that's mainly because I always have issues trying to get a GE when I really need it, and the Gardens would be really helpful in assuring that. Especially as there's not many buildings that let you get GE points or assign engineers.
I have the save and will play in about 24hrs.
I am noticing a lot of changes in our strategy going from quick war to eliminate Alex to no war build infrastructue. Don't trade with unfreindly AIs to give it away for a little gold. My 2 cents:
1. Continue building Cats (4-5) (poprush?)and transport to Sparta. Build acouple more swords and transport to Sparta.
2. After Barracks in Beiging use Sparta worker to chop for elephant.(N. forest-which will be inside Sparta culture in a few turns and max hammers from chop.) Then move 1-2 swords to Sparta. In about 10 turns we should have 5-6 swords and 4 Cats.With the galleys prepared to keep Alex's Galleys from making landfall if they leave port, we should be able to take Alex in 4-5 turns.
3.Everything else should go towards Infrastructure for the nxt 10 or so turns.
4. Lodestone complete sword (for Sparta), Poprush worker(1 pop only), use worker to chop forrest (for elephant) then transport to Coppertownski. Chop south Forrest (see 5. below) Then more troops.
5. Finish (?sword) in Coppertownski start Aquaduct>Hanging gardens. Use forrest chop to help (see 4. above) Simon@ I calculate 24turns for Hanging gardens 150H for aqua, 450 for HG. At 25H per turn 24turns less 45 hammers from Chop.
6. I think the 1 extra pop in every city with Hanging gardens is big in the mid game growth and worth the gamble.
7. Moscow workboat for Sparta (4turns) > worker. ThenWhen spices finished AND Roaded use worker to Chop worker. Then poprush Cat >finish Galley .
8. Grow commerce in Rostov, Norvogard.
9. Research- I think Beiging is going to be a problem. It is 0% Russian and don't know what it takes for a city to revolt, but needs as much culture as we can get (Lib, culture slider) thus I lean towards Drama.
10. This is all predicated on Alex and Mao leaving us alone for another 15 turns or so.
I am noticing a lot of changes in our strategy going from quick war to eliminate Alex to no war build infrastructue. Don't trade with unfreindly AIs to give it away for a little gold. My 2 cents:
1. Continue building Cats (4-5) (poprush?)and transport to Sparta. Build acouple more swords and transport to Sparta.
2. After Barracks in Beiging use Sparta worker to chop for elephant.(N. forest-which will be inside Sparta culture in a few turns and max hammers from chop.) Then move 1-2 swords to Sparta. In about 10 turns we should have 5-6 swords and 4 Cats.With the galleys prepared to keep Alex's Galleys from making landfall if they leave port, we should be able to take Alex in 4-5 turns.
3.Everything else should go towards Infrastructure for the nxt 10 or so turns.
4. Lodestone complete sword (for Sparta), Poprush worker(1 pop only), use worker to chop forrest (for elephant) then transport to Coppertownski. Chop south Forrest (see 5. below) Then more troops.
5. Finish (?sword) in Coppertownski start Aquaduct>Hanging gardens. Use forrest chop to help (see 4. above) Simon@ I calculate 24turns for Hanging gardens 150H for aqua, 450 for HG. At 25H per turn 24turns less 45 hammers from Chop.
6. I think the 1 extra pop in every city with Hanging gardens is big in the mid game growth and worth the gamble.
7. Moscow workboat for Sparta (4turns) > worker. ThenWhen spices finished AND Roaded use worker to Chop worker. Then poprush Cat >finish Galley .
8. Grow commerce in Rostov, Norvogard.
9. Research- I think Beiging is going to be a problem. It is 0% Russian and don't know what it takes for a city to revolt, but needs as much culture as we can get (Lib, culture slider) thus I lean towards Drama.
10. This is all predicated on Alex and Mao leaving us alone for another 15 turns or so.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how much gold it takes to induce an AI to give a tech. Is there a relationship to beakers or just how new the tech is the AI is holding. Also if you offer say "x" $ and the AI refuses does that sour him to any trade that turn even if you offer more than the initial "x"$.
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