SGOTM 03 - Team One

[mdy]

Thanks for the info Ori.

I have been reassesing the diplomatic situation and it looks like a relativly quick diplomatic win is within our grasp.

If a vote was taken now we would have the following votes: Team One, Huyana Capec, Mansa Musa, Gandi, and Saladin. This is 29.6% of the vote.

We will have Caesar`s once he switches to representation next turn(38.71%).
We will have Fredrick`s once we bribe him into war with Monty later(41.68%).
Cyrus will vote for us if we switch to vassalage(47.82).
We will get Togawa`s vote if we switch to mercantilism, and can bribe him into war(54.45%)
We might be able to get KK`s vote, unfortunatly his favorite civic is incompatible with Cyrus, so we would need to get the mutual military struggle with at least one of them if we wanted both votes(63.58). It might also be possible to get Isabellas vote if we switch to vassalage(68.13)-easily enough for a win

Getting all the above relations high enough could take a little time, and unexpected things can always happen, so my advice to the next player is:

Switch to theocracy,vassalage and mercantilism (micromanage extra specialist so next GP is guaranteed to be a GE in St Pete).

Build up an army to kill Monty.

Agree to any request (except stop trade or declare war on one of our friends) from Caesar, Huyana Capec, Mansa Musa, Gandi, Cyrus, Togawa, Saladin, and Fredrick.

Maximise population by building farms everywhere except Moscow and our military production centres ( St Pete, Rostov, and maybe Bejing).

 

[TDK]

Ori, thanks again. As for posting in the maintenance thread, I would feel a little silly posting it for all the other teams after spending so much time finding it spread around the forums(I'm sure CFR and Peanut, at the least, are using it). I think that you should post it if you feel like it, it is, after all, your excellent work.

Team One, I think we should put the game on hold for a bit to take in all the new info. Can one of you make a new list with our real relations so we can have a departure point for our discussion? If not, I can do one tomorrow.

This one from Ori is a nice surprise:

for Diplomacy Victory any AI will vote for the Player on whose team it is, if there is none it will vote for the Player towards whom it has the higher attitude if this attitude is higher than +7. If both Players are tied it will abstain, if the attitude towards both is +7 or below it will abstain.

 

[mdy]

Can one of you make a new list with our real relations so we can have a departure point for our discussion

Julius Caesar: +5 will rise to +6 due to trade sometime soon. With representation rises to +9

Huyana Capec: +9/10

Mansa Musa: +12/13

Kublai Kahn: +6/7 will rise to +7/8 due to favorite civic if we stick with bureacracy, +8/9 dur to open borders, +9/10 due to trade.

Cyrus: +5/6 will rise to +6/7 with fair trade relations, +7/8 due to resource deals, +9/10 with vassalage.

Saladin: +9/10

Togawa: -2/-1, will rise to -1/0 with resource deals, + 4/5 with mecantilism, +8/9 with war, +10/11 with open borders.

Isabella: +1/2, will rise to +3 with fair trade,+6 with THEOCRACY, +8 if that is good enough for open borders (we may need to incite a war to get this).

Fredrick: +6/7 , will rise to +7/8 soon due to trade, +10/11 with war.

I don`t have the numbers for the others immediatly available, but they are the ones I think will be most likely to vote for us. The reason some of them are written as +8/+9 is that I don`t know whether the rank difference effects round up or down.

We currently have a +1 "you have shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus with Mansa Musa. Does anyone know how you get this instead of the "fair and forthright" trade relations bonus?

 

[mdy]

there is one other point I am confused about. TDK posted this:

Got this reply from Ori:

Quote:
Hi,
actually the calculation is:
iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange*RankDifference/(NumberOfPlayersEverAlive+1)
i.e.
if there are ten Players in your case that would be
4*9/11 which would be rounded to 4
if there are 18 Players it would be
4*9/19 which would be 2...
I'll change the files soon to reflect this...
Oh and this applies to all relations, i.e. AI vs. human as well as AI vs. AI
Regards
ori

So, the above example with Cyrus would give us 9/19*2=1.

TDK
Jan 25, 2007 01:08 AM

The iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange modifiers are negative but here

0 to +4 (per rank/total civs) if your rank is better than the AI's

it indicates that they should be positive. If your rank is higher than the AI`s do you use the positive or negative values?

 

[ori]

We currently have a +1 "you have shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus with Mansa Musa. Does anyone know how you get this instead of the "fair and forthright" trade relations bonus?

lurker's comment: its TXT_KEY_MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US - i.e. you either gifted a tech or sold it for cash

The iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange modifiers are negative but here

it indicates that they should be positive. If your rank is higher than the AI`s do you use the positive or negative values?

lurker's comment: - I confused the betterrank and worserank modifiers in my reply - read iBetterRankDifferenceAttitudeChange in above and the other way round... Edit: to make it clearer: if the AI ranks above you the worserank modifier is used, if the AI ranks below you the betterrank modifier is used - the calculations given in the link I provided are correct (doublechecked them now...)

 

[TDK]

We currently have a +1 "you have shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus with Mansa Musa. Does anyone know how you get this instead of the "fair and forthright" trade relations bonus?

I think it is to do with how rare and expensive the tech is. In Mansas case, we gave him some technologies that only we had acces to(Paper, Edu comes to mind).

TDK

 

[hamfist]

It looks like we have enough of a plan for a turnset, in which case it is mboza if I recall conrrectly.

It seems the plan is build up militarily to attack Monty. Maybe a switch to Theocracy+ Mercantilism for the buildup and XP against an Agressive AI and + with Izzy. Vassalage is not necessary as Izzy likes Theocracy. Bribe new allies into war, especially Frederick and maybe Tokugawa or Izzy. Adjust GP points for a GE. Be farmers..

 

[ori]

lurker's comment:
guys, I hate to spread confusion - but since there is a possibility that you actually trust the info I gave in my above posts :
I now posted it in the Strategy Section so that more people would see it and of course: Klarius pointed out that I got the rank calculation wrong - this means that I had to change some of the Info on the Rank related attitude adjustors. Sorry for that - I will relurk and stop spreading confusion in your game. Good luck!

 

[TDK]

This changes the situation yet again. I will try to compile some data now.

We can calculate the exact shares of population between the civs by using the victory screen info.

Here is a start, we have 90 pop for 8,77%, so the total population of the planet is 1026(When I make the same calculation for Egypt I get 1133, strange). If we get up-to-date maps from the civs we can count their pop and calculate their percentages of the total with relative ease. I might load the game and trade some maps to be able to do this if there are no objections. I can then upload the game to the forum for the next player.

I think we should consider attacking the last greek city in the north and the barbarian city on the same island. There are ressources we don't have already and the barb city might be pretty big with all that food. There is a really nice landing spot with a forest SE of the city. We should at least send our northern caravel to investigate what is there.

TDK

 

[TDK]

Our real relations as of 1250 AD:
Caesar: 3 (rounding to 3 as Julius is pleased)
Huyana: 7
Mansa: 12
Gandhi: 9
Kublai: 3
Cyrus: 5
Toku: -4
Saladin: 7
Isabella: -4
Washington: -2
Frederick: 5

The new rank modifier doesn't hurt us as much as I thought, we get a -1 only with Isabella(and possibly Caesar and Huyana) among our potential voters. Were we counting on Mao or Alex to vote for us, things would have been much worse...

With the civs we can count on to vote for us with gift-giving and other brownnose stuff I have:

Frederick 30 pop ~3%
Gandhi 51 pop ~5%
Huyana 59 pop ~6%
Cyrus 61 pop ~6%
Mansa 57 pop ~6%
Saladin 42 pop ~4%
Team One 90 pop ~9%
Caesar 92 pop ~9%

That's about 45% so we need about 20% more. I figure we can make about 5% from growing our cities and capturing the greek city.
If we can have Kublai's vote that will be another 5%, where to get the remaining 10% I don't know. Huyana and Cyrus will tell us that "We just don't like you enough" if asked to declare on Monte, maybe we can make them some gifts and make it happen. Together with Mansa, Frederick, Saladin they might make some inroads into Montes lands and get us some more votes.

If we could find a way to get to war with China, those would be easily gotten votes.

I also think there is a real possibility that we will be facing Caesar in the elections, he seems to have more growth potential than Hatty.

btw, we have a worker building irrigation outside of Moscow for no good reason... Switching to Mercantilism means we can assign another engineer in Pete, right?

Enough for now.

TDK

 

[mdy]

Now we know Togawa is at -4 I would abondon the plan to switch to mercantilism as we won`t get his vote. Instead I wolud switch to theocracy and vassalge. Theocracy will give us Saladin`s vote.

Cyrus`s relations will rise to +6 for trading resources, and +7 with fair trade.
His favorite civic is vasslage so this will give +9. At this point we can switch to Buddism which should give us good enough relations to bribe him into a war with Monty, it should also improve Huyana`s attitude enogh to bribe him into a war. The military struggle bonus will then be enough for us to get cyrus and saladins vote without the favorite civic or religion bonus so we could switch back to bureacracy and no state religion.

Kublai Kahn`s favorite civic is bureacracy so seiching to it will give us +4 with him, open borders and resource trade will raise this to +6. Switching to Judaism would raise this to +10, which should enable us to bribe him into war . We can then convert back to no state religion and rely on the mutual military struggle to get his vote.

We will get +4 with Caesar due to resource trade, +7 with representation, and +8 with you have shared your technological discoveries bonus- enough to get his vote.

Together with conquering Montezuma and growing our own lands this should enable us to win.

As getting + modifiers is now much more important than the speed of research I would stop trading tech`s to the AI unless they ask for it or we are trying to boost relations with them.

 

[mboza]

Sorry guys, I have not found the time to play this turnset, so just skip me.

 

[TDK]

Ok, can you take it Hamfist?

TDK

 

[TDK]

Amh, can you take it?

TDK

 

[amh52]

I think it is Hamfist turn. I'll take it otherwise.

 

[amh52]

Ok, I've got the save and I'll start playing. Hamfist can come after me.

 

[hamfist]

Strange. I thought it was mbozas turn... I'll play after amh52. best of luck amh52.

 

[amh52]

Well, I tried to follow the latest plan but Isabella kind of messed it up in the middle of it. I decided to follow her suggestion to convert to Judaism since we had mentioned it at some point. Let's hope it turns out to be good for us.

It feels like we are stagnating a bit except that we finished off the Greeks. I think we definitely need more military.

T0 - 1250
Switch to Vassalage, Theocracy (and revert to Buddhism)

T1 - 1256
Anarchy
Alex hits us with a cat outside Corinth
We take Corinth losing 1 cat and 1 treb
Alex converts to Hinduism

T2 -1262
Anarchy is over. Radio is 11 turns away and we run a 135 gold deficit
Make peace with Alex. War weariness is just killing us otherwise.

T3 - 1268
Isabella cancels Open Borders
Alex loses his last city to Barbarians! Bye Bye

T4 - 1274
Isabella asks us to switch to Judaism. Ouch, agreed.

T5 - 1280
Open borders with Washington
JC switches to Representation

T6 - 1286

T7 - 1292

T8 - 1298
We discover a source of gold next to Yaroslav

T9 - 1304
Mansa has made peace with Monty
Cow for 5 Gold per Turn to Isabella

T10 - 1310
Monty sinks one of our Caravel with 2nd Caravel near Ollantayambo (we sank the first one)
Open borders with Isabella
Clam for 1 Gold per Turn to Washington
Radio in 3 turns

 

[mdy]

Good turn set. Izzy asking us to switch to Judaism was probably a blessing in disguise- it gives us another + modifier. We can now bribe Izzy into war with Montezuma and then switch back to no state religion. 4 turns later we can switch to buddism and continue as planned.

Our military does not look too bad. The assembled assault force looks like it could take and hold a Aztec city if it had a few pikeman and longbows added to it. It probably does not need any more trebuchets. The landing place I recommend would be the hill next to Texoco.

I think we should continue building farms everywhere except Moscow. To speed this up we may want to build a few more workers outside the major production centres(which I would dedicate to military). In some of the smaller cities which will grow quickly it may be worth using the whip to speed this up.

 

[TDK]

I think we should land in Monte's lands immediately and set up a shipchain from Corinth to Aztecia. I think we should use the last galleon to transport troops from our old continent to Argos and they can then walk to Corinth. I think we should empty our cities of maces and bring them to battle ASAP, these cities can build new longbows when needed.

We have 2 workers building irrigation outside the fat cross at Argos/Shanghai.

I think building those economic buildings might be a mistake. We are building a courthouse in Corinth which takes 33 turns from now, shouln't we be whipping a granary or a thaeater in stead? It is also much more efficient to work some food there than the Iron.

Let's grow Nanjing in stead of having an engineer assigned.

Let's build a road on our gold.

TDK