SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond

So...much...crossposting.... Anyway,

My thought for the second workboat (whip that bad boy right away!) was that it go to hook up the clams. We've got workers and settlers to produce and if we whip everything, we'll be pretty unhappy for quite a while.

I lean toward the wheel for tech.

In fact, I suggest: While teching on the wheel then pottery (then writing?), whip the workboat, build warriors so the city can grow, then whip the granary, then whip a worker. Plan to whip every 15 turns starting as soon as we're out of anarchy. Build warriors, buildings (if available) or workboats to grow.

The CFR team did well defending against raging barbs with just warriors. If we get them out the door and to the front quickly enough, so can we. (I'll try to make up a barb-fog-sentry map here in a bit.)
 
Bottom line: We're alone on the island. What do we want to do. We grow to size 3 next turn. We can flip to slavery right now. Our island is dispersed and jungle-filled. We're certainly on the good end of it. We know about every workable tile (except 3 water tiles south of the southern spices) on the island.
This island is awesome, plain and simple. Almost every city will have a gems to work meaning that every city we found will be revenue neutral from turn one (more or less). This is nice. I say spam this island with settlers, following the tech order I outlined above -fishing->BW-wheel->pottery->IW
 
Oh yes, we need to spam warriors so that barbs don't spawn, if we start letting barbs spawn we will be in big trouble.
 
We need 6 units to bust the fog on every square on the island. With 5, we can have just a single unseen tile. This is both for cultural border=2 (as it is now) and cultural border=3 (on turn 51 because we delayed founding for one turn).

We have two of the units now. One whipping is two warriors! (I assume the HoF mod makes it so that a whip of a warrior with 0 hammers invested in it costs 2 pop.)

We could: revolt immediately to slavery, switch production to workboat; put one hammer into a warrior; whip it; let the next one finish; put another turn into a warrior; whip it; let the next one finish. We'd have our entire fog busting party out in 6 turns! (Assuming no deaths in the meantime.)

Sure, we'd be happy-limited to size 3 in the interim, but we could work the fish, the plains hill and the forested grass hill to get the next workboat out asap while we grew back. Then, we could be building settlers and workers at maximum capacity with no fear of barbs!

The following is one such sentry map that maximizes the likelihood that we'd see passing galleys and units on other islands:


Feel free to use that in the summary post, Kodii, the thumbnail link is: [U R L=http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sentriesvg4.jpg][I M G]http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4525/sentriesvg4.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

with the U R L and the I M G spaces omitted.

In fact, I think including thumbnails of any agreed-upon dotmap(s) would be a great addition to a summary post! That way, if you're the one who gets the settler, you just check the latest summary post (linked from Kodii's first post on page one) and you know where to go.
 
This proposed city dotmap makes two great cities (red dots) and gets us the copper. I'd probably also highly consider the GP farm on the southern spice off this map. There is room to fit additional, less great cities on this map, but they may be no better than AI capitals.

 
Wow, you guys sure work fast.

I see that I am up. I would be happy to switch with some that's actually been in the discussion. Don't worry, I'm not flaking out already, but I feel kind of bad dropping a comment in once a day or so, when other people are contributing a lot more time, effort and thought.
 
I split this post into two parts so Compromise could get the relevant part (found on 12**) first.

Our starting island is awesome. Look at all those gems! We're also alone and so have some breathing room. We want to build enough units to fog-bust the eastern half of the island, then fortify a warrior/archer on the northern choke to prevent the barbs from crossing.

This whole situation screams "Pyramids!" to me. We're a Philosophical/Expansive leader on an archipelago map with stone in our capital radius and no one else on our island. I thought the Pyramids were an obvious play in RB Epic 9 for similar reasons, but our situation is much, much better for them than the RB Epic 9 starting position. I think it would simply be nuts not to build them.

We should chop the forests in our capital post-haste, either for faster settlers while still growing our city (possibly combined with whipping), or for the Pyramids once we have stone hooked up. We're Expansive, so we don't need the health benefits, and these forests are on grasslands next to a river, which we should be cottaging as soon we grow the capital to work those tiles. Our capital will have more than enough production from the stone quarry and the hills: we won't need to work junk 2F 1H tiles, and lumbermills arrive far far too late to be worth considering for the capital. (Later on, after we've founded two or three secondary production cities, we should look into cottaging over the grassland hills, too: the plains hill and stone quarry will give more than enough production for a mature commerce capital.)

This is an archipelago map, which means that barring unusual situations, all cities should be on the water, since they'll all have water tiles anyways and we'll be aiming our tech path and wonders to take advantage of the sea. We're Expansive, we get cheap harbors, giving +2 health with the seafood we already have, and bonus commerce as well. If we can finagle the Great Lighthouse, too, that will put our economy in great shape, and combine better with our harbors.

I don't think "conquer the wonders" works. More likely than not, some civ halfway around the world will build the wonders in question. Meanwhile, the defender has a big advantage in warfare on archipelagos because of the necessity of building boats: when one of every three units has to be a fifty-hammer galley, you're talking about building three-halves more units for the same effect. Moving and exploring also takes longer on archipelagos. I think our starting situation argues that we should build up our own island first, then go conquering. We don't have an early UU to exploit here, and our only visible military resource is going to take awhile to hook up: I counsel patience, early focus on economy to get a tech lead, and going after the AIs with catapults and, probably, swords.

Because I'm ambitious, I'm going to suggest we look at building the Great Lighthouse, too. The Great Lighthouse is a good wonder to play in combination with the Pyramids and Expansive, because it takes virtually the same techs (Sailing is something we have to get sooner rather than later anyways). The AIs are always slow to build wonders with prerequisite buildings, I assume because their scripts don't beeline the prerequisite buildings like they do the wonders, so we have a better chance to get it. The biggest thing that makes me hesitate is that the capital is the best early city to build it in, unless we try to settle blue dot early (I have a dotmap.); but building it in the capital will dilute our great engineer pool with great merchant points (ick!).

dotmapds6.jpg


Here's my tentative dotmap. I went for quality over quantity, trying to make sure to maximize the number of resources in the borders of our first four cities, and to make sure every city has a food resource. At the moment, my temptation is to settle red-dot first ASAP: it's close to the capital, it has cows for food and production, and it make a decent whipping site until we can develop Iron Working and start chopping those jungles. I'd strongly consider settling blue dot next, because we can mine the copper and workboat the fish before Iron Working, and it's also close to the capital for low maintenance; also, it has a lot of production and a hills forest we can shop, so it's entirely plausible we can build the Great Lighthouse there.

If we want less immediate output in favor of more cities and long-term potential, consider the following changes. Move green-dot 1N, blue-dot 1S, red-dot 1W, and build two more cities, one on farthest west tiles and one on the farthest east tiles.

For tech path, we have some complicated choices. We want Iron Working sooner rather than later to chop all those jungles. We want Masonry for the Pyramids, the Lighthouse, and to start the stone quarry. If we do found blue dot, we'll need an obelisk, so Masonry. We may want Archery for barb defense. (How lucky are we feeling?) We want The Wheel and Pottery for granaries and cottages. We want Sailing for lighthouses. We want Animal Husbandry for the cows and to reveal horses.

My feeling on our general plan is that we want to whip out a worker after the workboat, then chop the river forests, timing them so we can whip two settlers, for green dot and then blue dot. After that, we want to start the Pyramids in Moscow while whipping improvements (granary, lighthouse, etc.). I think our tech path for that would need to be The Wheel, Pottery (we have a lot of tech we need to research, so getting those cottages started early would be nice), Masonry (stone quarries take while to get up), Sailing, and then Iron Working. We stuff in Animal Husbandry as we need to pasturize the cows for the second city, and Mysticism when we need an obelisk for the third.

Compromise, I appreciated your HoF post in the Maintenance thread. Did you ever get an answer as to what the mod does? I don't have the time or the patience to wade through the posts over at the HoF forum. (Why don't they have good summary written somewhere?)
 
I will look over things for my own dotmap suggestions shortly.

Correction: I can't load the game to take a look. This make take awhile. It is complaining about the save file being protected, and quits the game. I am contacting the staff.
 
Kodii, both of my last two posts were cross-posted--it takes me awhile to type out stuff, and I don't like interrupting my train of thought by checking the thread constantly. Sorry!

I like Compromise's fog-busting plan. Let's get those warriors out there ASAP; this can save us the need to develop Iron Working or build non-warrior military units for awhile. It also means connect the copper isn't super-urgent.

Moscow should be whipped every 15 turns at a minimum: try to use it to build the workers/settlers because it's more efficient that way. Feel free to chop the forests to help that, trying to make sure it spends as much time growing as possible.

More to come later.
 
OK, finish catching up on reading.

I would revolt now for the same reason as Compromise. It's best to get it out of the way when we are smallest.

As for barbs, I don't think we need to bust all the fog, we just need to bust some fog N of Moscow and put some warriors in defensive positions to rake in the XP when the barbs come a-calling. We've got a little while before archers and axes, so we don't need to put the hammers into the warriors immediately. At least that's my opinion.

Techwise, I think Wheel->Pottery first is the best idea.

Now that we see we have stone, I would agree that we should go for the Pyramids. The benefits of an early GE and access to Representation are too much to ignore.
 
@grangerm: If you don't want to play I could pick it up and go either late this evening or tomorrow afternoon. I'm easy either way - just let me know.
 
I switched greggo and grangerm for now. If necessary, we can continue to shuffle with the roster.

BTW, we now have the highest post count :lol:
 
About to go out for the afternoon, so I'll play when I get back home.

I'll do about 15 turns, with the following in mind:

Tech: the wheel?

Production: whip a worker, start chopping forests towards a settler, while growing in between.

Units: Move around warrior and scout as compromise suggested.
First settler will head for red dot area, don't think I'll get that far though.

Other: Don't die!

Looking forward to the three pages of comments when I get back tonight
 
I'd just like the throw in here (before the next turns get played) that I don't mind waiting a while: maybe a day or two) to figure out exactly how to proceed before going on. So, no need to play the next 15 turns in a few hours!

And I like Iainuki's dotmap better than mine. Having the copper city without food will be extremely painful. Also, since we'll prioritize IronWorking, why don't we hold off on founding the copper city until we get that tech (or is that too long to wait? I don't think so.) Maybe we have Iron in a better spot.

Lots to process and digest. I like all the ideas.

Certainly before we play we should decide at least:

1) Next tech. I say wheel to pottery to get granaries and cottages going.

2) Whether or not to whip fog busters. I kind of like it because we can, but I'm certainly not wed to the idea. I suggested it because I thought of it, not because I necessarily think it's the best plan.

3) Unit order. If fogbusters, then those right away. Otherwise whip workboat. But after that, I'm not sure. Whipping settlers and workers is the way to go, though (so the capital can grow). But if we're super unhappy, we can build them while working 2 seafoods and still grow quickly.

No rush! I'd rather do it right and with consensus.
 
I think the current consensus is this:

Tech: Wheel, then Pottery

We need to solidify what we want for build order in Moscow before anything else. I'll think about it, and offer my two cents later.
 
I am convinced that the stone beside Moscow was added. There is another source of stone to that island in the southeast. I've never seen two stone sources so close together. Anyways, I noticed this when I opened up the save to get a better shot for dotmaps.

The dotmap I came up uses my original copper city. I like this spot because it acts as a canal city. However, as mentioned, this city would be low food, and would be better off 1E. Plus, now that I think about it, there isn't much more of a shortcut... The white dot locations would be awesome with Colossus. Maintenance shouldn't be a problem post IW, because of all the gems. Why couldn't this map be used for Epic 2?... :lol:

sgotm2.jpg


PS: If you are worried about cross-posting, simple use the preview post button, then scroll down to see if anybody else has posted since.
 
Compromise, I appreciated your HoF post in the Maintenance thread. Did you ever get an answer as to what the mod does? I don't have the time or the patience to wade through the posts over at the HoF forum. (Why don't they have good summary written somewhere?)

I feel pretty lowbrow for cropping out all of your excellent points to respond to just this part: No. No one has responded at all except the immediately following post wherein I was told to ask the question in a different thread. Well, I guess that means that all the assumptions I made are correct. (Or that's what our competition wants us to think!)
 
3160BC: We spy a Chinese (Mao) archer on the island off to our southeast! He is alone and heavily promoted already.
Opps... seems like I made a small error here.. the starting archers for civs that is protective in warlords still has their free protective promotions in vanilla... it is just the starting units thou, the ones they produce will be fine
 
Back
Top Bottom