SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Another installment in this glacial first turnset. I moved the scout:

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

We can have stone in our capital!

I'm still leaning toward 12**, though in fairness it should be noted that "LK/grangerm Hill" has enough food to run three grass hills. With a single border expansion (8 turns), the fog is busted up to the rice. We can plant a city that would capture most (undiscovered) seafood lost to the plains hill site.

We can probably start to think about strategy. Obviously the pyramids come to mind. With that, I'm also thinking that a GP farm on that southern spot is appealing. We'll still have to see just how big the island is, of course. These archipelago islands can go on for long distances at just 3-4 tiles wide. Long term, jungle sites make for good commerce cities.

I'll play this turnset to completion in a few hours, barring any major dissent.
 
I'm still liking 12** over LK hill. In the long term, I think the chop + mining of that hill is worth more than the initial production boost it would give us.

In terms of the next build, I think a second warrior would not be very useful at this point: there's very little fog to bust or land to explore.

My preference would be for a scouting workboat - Find as many of our neighbors ASAP so we can pick our friends and enemies, as well as getting the tech discount (minor with 18 civs, but every little bit helps).

Getting a settler out is a close second, but with our ability to whip, should be possible very shortly after the second workboat in any case.
 
Well I did a quick dotmap for each situation. Either way, we can make full use of the spices and clams that we lose. With 12**, it is very cramped. With LK hill, it spreads things out a bit. While losing the plains hill, we do gain a grassland hill, though it cannot be worked until Iron Working. I am still unsure at this point, so I'll leave myself as neutral. Either way is fine for me.

12**


LK/Grangerm Hill


12**: Compromise, greggo, (Atlas*), Iainuki
LK/Grangerm Hill: LKendter
Either: Kodii
Unknown: Sir Bugsy, grangerm
 
Nice dotmaps. Note that if we found directly on the rice (no, I don't usually favor founding on resources!), we'll get an extra food so the city center will be 3F1H1C. This compares to 4F0H0C for farming it (pre-irrigation, if ever). It depends on what else is up there, of course.

Who is Duh? And I got the impression that grangerm was bringing up a possibility rather than giving an opinion preferring the Hill.
 
I really wish our scout could move 2E to see if there is any further seafood, but I think its probably best to keep it safe and settle at 12**.

EDIT: If we do decide to found on 12**, then settling the rice might be an idea. That way we don't waste tiles.
 
The plains hill has way too much water, in my opinion. Remember, cottages are hugely more productive than ocean tiles!

I still like 12**. The waste of resources is annoying, but in the early game, efficient land use is much less important than building strong cities: in the opening, your productivity is limited by how many cities you have, not how well you've covered the land available to you. This is particularly true for the capital, since it will probably produce one-half or more your commerce well into the midgame. We can found a city on the SE island to get the grassland spices, or a city on the grassland spices like Compromise says (I'm very wary of stealing tiles from the capital, though), and another on the SW island to get the clams. That would waste a clams, a floodplains, and a plains spice; I don't care about plains spice, since they're not important tiles anyways (2F 1P 3C doesn't excite me), and I think the other two are an acceptable sacrifice to get a capital with as much land and food as we can manage.
 
Okay, it is done.

Quick synopsis: We are alone on our island. We have copper, but it is very far away in a not-great city site. I have revealed all city-workable tiles on our island. Lots of jungle.

Full report:
3970BC: I settled at 12**, now officially named Moscow.




I started building a warrior and began researching fishing per the plan. The city worked a grass forest. When the first border pop occured, I worked the floodplain for one turn.



3790BC: Very quickly (as the scout was rounding the northernmost point on our island, a lion appeared outside the city borders. That seemed early, but oh well. This is raging barbs.

Time passed. We got fishing and I started a workboat, switching the city's tile assignment back to the floodplain for a turn while continuing with the starting warrior. I think the warrior only lost a hammer or two to decay.

3610BC: Somebody somewhere founds Buddhism. (Hinduism was not founded on my turnset.)



3340BC: The workboat finished and went to the fish (netting them the next turn).

3250BC: The warrior finishes. I send him toward the jungle grass hill to reveal a few of our as-yet unknown hidden tiles. I start a workboat figuring that it might be more useful than a warrior here. Feel free to debate this.



Also in 3250, our lion appears near our scout who has finished revealing every workable tile to the west and the north of our upside-down-U-shaped island. I decide to fortify him north of some cows to maximally reveal tiles while on +50% space.

I decide to flee this encounter, however, because my scouts always seem to die to animals, especially when they're lightly fortified (here only 5%). By going due west, I can keep an eye on the shore. By moving NE then S next turn, I can make sure I can go back to this position without fear of ending up near the lion.

All of this microtacticking has a price, however. I think I forgot to manually assign the city tile when the city grew to size 2. (Maybe not, I didn't note carefully how much food was in the food bar.) Regardless, on the first or second turn after we grew to two, I switched the auto-assignment from the plains hill forest to the floodplain to maximize growth



3160BC: We spy a Chinese (Mao) archer on the island off to our southeast! He is alone and heavily promoted already.

3070BC: My last turn is eventful. A Greek (Alexander) scout appears near the same spot as Mao's archer. Now we know both the Greeks and the Chinese. Naturally--for the aggressive AI setting--they are pleased with each other and annoyed with us. (At least Mao is. Maybe next turn Alex will flip to annoyed.)



Also, the lion has moved in between our warrior (sent that way to engage the lion!) and our scout (who should probably try to avoid this battle too).

The following two overviews can guide our dotmap planning:




The last screenshot has all resources on it, but the southwesternmost gems and copper don't have the little circles near them.

Bottom line: We're alone on the island. What do we want to do. We grow to size 3 next turn. We can flip to slavery right now. Our island is dispersed and jungle-filled. We're certainly on the good end of it. We know about every workable tile (except 3 water tiles south of the southern spices) on the island.

Advice for next player:
Inherited turn (before hitting end-turn when you get it): Move the scout 1W to avoid the lion. Fortify the warrior and let him bear the attack from the lion. Revolt to slavery (if we lose the warrior, we don't want to waste a turn in anarchy rebuilding him).
First non-inherited turn: move the warrior south to bust fog. Or switch locations (even better!) with the scout by moving the scout to NW of the rice (W of where warrior is now) and the warrior to where the scout is right now. That way, fog will be busted on the entire east side of the island and our stronger warrior will be there to take the brunt of any wandering animals.

I've uploaded the save to the proper place.

EDIT: By playing quickly, we are winning!:
 
@Iainuki: regarding the southern city, I'd probably plan to not steal any tiles away from the capital! Just have it work the clams and the cottaged floodplain that the capital can't reach. It will have +6F from just the clams and the floodplains and can support 3 specialists. That should be plenty with a library and a forge. At least for a while. If/when we conquer the southeast island, we could add the other grassland town from there too.

But we may have other priorities. That site will probably always be there for us.
 
Great job! I'm glad to see that we're the top line of the graph temporarily :lol:

We should work on putting together our first summary post. As for the roster, Sir Bugsy is a bit tentative in going second, so I have changed it up a bit, switching Sir Bugsy and grangerm. Therefore, grangerm is up next. Does that work out alright?

Compromise (just played)
grangerm (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
greggo
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki
 
@Compromise - can you please crop your screen shots? I had to constantly scroll left to right to read them.
 
I played about 30 turns (got to the 31st to see if we had copper, but didn't play at all ). I think the usual procedure is for the next player to take 15 or 20 turns depending on what happens. Then 10 turns each usually works. Again, feel free to adjust that a bit if the situation warrants.

Kodii: Add to your summary list (and the list for the next player!) that we need to pick a tech. I started The Wheel, but a strong case could be made for mining (prereq for masonry/pyramids) too.

EDIT: I am a moron. I should have slept instead of lying awake, pondering this start. Of *course* we have mining already. (Thanks Kodii. Does it make you feel any better that I'm about to play our SGOTM2 turns? :( )
 
Don't we already have Mining? (I think we started with Mining :lol:), of course, considering we already have BW :p
 
@Compromise - can you please crop your screen shots? I had to constantly scroll left to right to read them.

Yes, I'll crop them. I tried to use the auto-resize feature at imagehost.us, but I guess I screwed it up. I agree that it's very annoying.

EDIT: Done. We should be able to read that post without panning now.
 
SUMMARY POST:

Roster:
Compromise (just played)
grangerm (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
greggo
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki

Diplomacy:
Mao and Alex on our Southeast island. Apparently, our yelling across the ocean did not amuse them, as both are annoyed with us. Fortunately, we are alone on our island (other than the barbs).

Technology:
We have fishing, hunting, mining and bronzeworking. Possible choices for next tech are wheelies or masonry. With a quick hook-up of stone we may be able to complete the pyramids. Are there any other suggestions for tech path?

Settling:
Dot-maps to come!

Builds:
Another workboat is currently in production - would this be for exploring or hooking up the crabs? Not too many other choices here yet. We could pop out a settler, or work on military. Our fogbusting is fairly good already. If something killed our northern warrior/scout, we'd have about 9 turns to build up some quick defense.

Religion:
It doesn't look like we'll be going for early religion. Do we particularly care about founding any religions?
 
Ack! I was in the middle of writing up an extensive summary post :lol:.

I'll still go ahead and post it, but I won't post it for a while. My summary post basically extends greggo's. I would prefer putting up all the summary posts, that way I can organize them more easily. I guess neither Compromise or I have told the team of our plans for the summary post.

Compromise came up with the idea of a private summary webpage, but after passing the idea past AlanH, he suggested that the webpage would only distract lurkers away from the SGOTM. Instead, we decided to organize all the summary posts into an index (which is currently my first post in this thread). I'm still working on a way to further organize this. I'll add greggo's summary post into the index shortly.
 
I don't think we can establish a firm tech path without more information. I agree with Compromise's proposed opening (as far as I understand the numbers, at least) of Fishing and Bronze Working with a workboat and warrior. I suggest our next build should be another workboat: as far as I can tell, it's always better to grow and improve tiles for faster settlers/workers. After the second workboat, I'd go worker (I'm guessing it will be finished around the time Bronze Working comes in) and then we can chop and whip our first settler.
 
Iainuki: We already have Bronze Working

SUMMARY POST #1(.5) :lol:

Compromise (just played)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki

Diplomacy -

As of right now, I think it is a good idea to categorize the AIs into four groups. Group One is the “to be conquered” AIs. Group Two is the “to befriend” AIs. Group Three is the “to be our opponent in election” AI(s). Group Four is the “leave alone” AIs.

At this point, I put both Mao and Alex into Group One, as they are both non-trustworthy. Furthermore, they are close by, and can be more easily conquered. Do we plan to use an axe rush?

Technology
-

Wheel - Pottery - Animal Husbandry - Masonry

The above order will depend on what happens in game. AH should come in when we build the red dot. Masonry should come in as soon as possible for the worker.

Settling -


Red Dot - First Priority
Blue Dot - Second Priority
Green Dot - Third Priority
White Dots - Fishing Villages

Builds
-

Workboat (whip), Warrior (to grow), Worker (whip), Warrior, Granary (whip), Warrior, Worker (whip), Settler(whip), Settler(whip), Pyramids

A reminder: Try not to chop until we start the Pyramids. Prechopping is okay, but let us know if you do.

Religion -

I don’t think we should found one. Instead, we should pick it up from an AI. With 17 AIs, it’ll be tight in getting an early religion. We could try to found a later one, like Confucianism or Taoism.

Religion will divide the world, but hopefully enough of the world will convert to a single religion, so that we can befriend them.

Great People -

The red dot is now our GP farm.

Civics
-

SWITCH TO SLAVERY RIGHT AWAY!

Fogbusting -
Compromise said:
The following is one such sentry map that maximizes the likelihood that we'd see passing galleys are units on other islands:

Notes -

Remember, barbs are set as Standard. That makes fogbusting warriors less urgent.

Compromise said:
Advice for next player:
Inherited turn (before hitting end-turn when you get it): Move the scout 1W to avoid the lion. Fortify the warrior and let him bear the attack from the lion. Revolt to slavery (if we lose the warrior, we don't want to waste a turn in anarchy rebuilding him).
First non-inherited turn: move the warrior south to bust fog. Or switch locations (even better!) with the scout by moving the scout to NW of the rice (W of where warrior is now) and the warrior to where the scout is right now. That way, fog will be busted on the entire east side of the island and our stronger warrior will be there to take the brunt of any wandering animals.
 
Sorry, didn't realize you were already working on it:blush:...

<goes back to his corner :mischief:>

Edit: further thoughts on Kodii's summary.

I really like Rice/Cows/Gem/Fish (RCGF) site . This would have to go on the spot south of the cows I believe. Also, I agree with the location of the copper city. I feel like the GP farm can wait awhile (like, until we have the needed techs to run the specialists) and our other, larger cities take preference.

For tech, we'll also need sailing to move onto other islands and let our cities trade along the coast (esp for getting copper hooked up).
 
Does anyone know the answer to this: If we get sailing, build 2 warriors, a galley and a settler and ship them over to the copper (with a worker to hook it up), will we be "trade-route-connected so that our capital can use the copper? I'm not clear about the cultural ownership or sight of coast or whatever that's needed to link two cities by coastal trade.

@Kodii's summary post: Revolt to slavery right now. Best to waste the turn of anarchy when our empire is the least productive. (Since we aren't working on something we desperately need right now.)
 
Does anyone know the answer to this: If we get sailing, build 2 warriors, a galley and a settler and ship them over to the copper (with a worker to hook it up), will we be "trade-route-connected so that our capital can use the copper? I'm not clear about the cultural ownership or sight of coast or whatever that's needed to link two cities by coastal trade.

I think that as long as you have explored an unbroken length of coast between the two cities, they are connected with sailing. Will test now.


EDIT
Firstly, the two cities do not need to be on the same landmass - as long as there is coast in between, they are connected.
Secondly, you do not need to fog-bust for the trade route to be viable.
Thirdly, the coast does have to be explored before the trade route comes into play. Even if you can look into the fog and see coastal squares, they do not count.

I have screenies if anyone wants to see, otherwise you can take my word for it and I'll try to avoid any extra clutter. In short, coast tiles function essentially the same as roads through the ocean.
 
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