SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

Cam_H · Apr 1, 2007

[Edit] Images removed. [/Edit]

Well, I've played all of two :eek:

of my fifteen turns! Need a 'one-seventh time break' to run a thought past you guys and prod you again about our relations.

For starters, the whip came out on three former Mongolian cities, and I bumped up the research rate to a fairly moderate 60% :science:

putting Chemistry within arm's reach.

The Galleons sitting in Old Sarai took some troops out to the ocean border of Mongolian Tabritz.

This happened;

[Edit] Image removed - declare war on Mongolia [/Edit]

I did lose two 5XP Berserkers, but they died for an honourable cause :viking:

. Genghis had no :gold:

and wasn't going to hand over any :science:

. No gold eh? I always wonder where this money comes from ...?

I traded World Maps with Hannibal for a better look at things over there.

The capture of Tabritz has now given us Stone. I quite like the idea of the University of Sankore for Gandhi to take:

A master stroke or an utter waste? Thoughts?

There are also some resource trades available from Isabella that could be worth considering - especially as we're again running into happiness problems;

'Yes' to a two-for-two?

I'll have to play on within about 15 hours, so any immediate feeback would be good ... otherwise you'll just have to trust me!

The save

pigswill · Apr 1, 2007

I don't think Isabella is on our immediate target list so yes to trades.

Nice to read that GK is history.

Re UoS. We still need to decide if we're going for consolidation until Gandhi invades (my preference) or expansion (cabert's preference). I think that stuge favours consolidation and remconius is for expansion but I'm not 100% sure.

If we're going for consolidation then wonders probably make sense. If going for expansion then probably looking at military/navy builds. Do we have chemistry for frigates yet?

Cam_H · Apr 1, 2007

Piggy,

Thanks for the 'prompt' feedback.

Chemistry in seven-ish turns.

remconius · Apr 1, 2007

Yeah, I think we should launch an attack... AI likes to backstab when you are fighting a war on another front...

Cam_H · Apr 2, 2007

[Edit] Images removed. [/Edit]

Played on from where I left off!

1382AD to 1400AD

Continued to spread Judaism in Viking lands. As discussed, this will allow Gandhi to see into our cities and make a stronger nation if and when he decides to invade.

Made the first of several deals with Spain;

(Dye for Sheep)

Coming out of war with Mongolia and losing the ‘Motherland’ unhappiness helped get our cities’ productivity back up on top of the extra Dye happiness.

Some hassling of Gandhi led to the loss of a Knight (more damn War Weariness without a positive result).

Units move through Carthaginian waters towards New York (Washington’s only city on the south coast).

1406AD – 1418AD

Chemistry comes in, and we pursue Steel.

Mikhail Lomonosov (co-founder of the Lomonosov Moscow State University) ironically founds an Academy in Turfan;

Hannibal offers Education for Chemistry + 630 :gold:

… he is refused.

While hassling Gandhi, I manage to lose an 89%er Galleon vs. Caravel. Continued to churn out Berserkers and Catapults and these were corralled at Old Sarai.

The first fleet finds itself in a position where it can strike, and would probably capture New York, but the troops are held back for the pending arrival of three City Raider III Grenadiers.

The University of Sankore gamble does not pay off … well it does to the tune of 249 :gold:

. Nidros turns instead to a Grocer.

With the Wonder chase now gone, and a second Stone now available from Old Sarai, this deal is made;

(Spain: Ivory for Stone)

1424AD – 1448AD

With the arrival of the Galleon with the Grenadiers, the decision to declare is triggered!

(Declare on America)

The Longbow at the forefront of the New York defence is softened with a Catapult, although with overwhelming odds, the Grenadiers take out the hardened defenders, leaving Washington’s siege weapons for our Berserkers.

Gandhi sends out a Galleon from Delhi … could the Indian invasion be about to begin? The next turn it retreats.

Isabella requests Gunpowder, which is pushing the friendship a bit far, and she drops from Pleased back to Cautious. She does not go away empty handed;

(Trade Gunpowder with Spain)

The invasion force approaches Atlanta, and unleashes the first volley of assaults on its defences. An Atlanta Longbow is taken out by an eager Grenadier. The city is ripe for the taking in the next turn.

There are some fairly unattractive deals with Hannibal on the table;

Chemistry for Printing Press + Map + 550

Chemistry + 290 for Education

We’ve got plenty of cash for upgrading Berserkers to Grenadiers. We’re half-way to Steel.

The Save.

remconius · Apr 2, 2007

Good stuff, Cam.

Too bad the Indian Galleon retreats... At least he has one.... Let's hope he his massing units to go after us.

cabert · Apr 2, 2007

I wouldn't trade chemistry for now.
Except if everyone has it already, or if we can trade it to 2/3 other leaders for a good value.

edit : so guys, seems I'm up (Mr. Mahk on deck).

If you don't have any good reason to prevent me from taking the confucianist shrine, I think the next turns are quite straightforward :
- take down america (at least down to 2/3 cities before sueing for peace (no capitulation in this game, please. We don't want our vassals to take down India :lol:

)
- tech to steel. No tech trade in the foreseeable future.
- whip some cultural buildings to avoid getting flipped by hannibal
- build up our future ex home land's infrastructure if need be (I think courthouses everywhere, to allow us to start building the forbidden palace somewhere in american land, + forges everywhere to start Iron Works in another american city). I'm sure Gandhi is waiting for me for his invasion. He wants to avenge his catapult and favourite elephant

.

Is there any reason to defend one of our homeland cities?
My guess is to put every unit of our homeland defense in a mobile force to prevent american city taking.

MrMahk · Apr 2, 2007

Nice turns Cam. That is good news with the Indian galleon- let's cross our fingers he starts bringing more than that soon.
I like your plan, Cabert, I would just recommend making a few extra frigates to set up between us and the other continent to give advanced warning of a possible landing, because we definetely don't want him taking cities that should be rightfully Gandhi's!

stuge · Apr 2, 2007

^^^ Sounds like a plan. Agree with MrM. too - some kind of pre-emptie system would be good.

Gandhi is a chicken...

remconius · Apr 2, 2007

Just had an idea...Might be too late though...

If we can generate a priest, we could capture the jewish capital, install the shrine and let G capture it back... Might be too late for this though...

cabert · Apr 2, 2007

remconius said:
Just had an idea...Might be too late though...

If we can generate a priest, we could capture the jewish capital, install the shrine and let G capture it back... Might be too late for this though...

a lot too late for this
we don't want to destroy all of gandhi's improvements

pigswill · Apr 2, 2007

Invasion is going smoothly; city maintenance is shooting up but that's to be expected. Now we've started we may as well polish off America despite the cost.

No fresh ideas about motivating Gandhi I'm afraid.

MrMahk · Apr 2, 2007

Just a heads up guys- I am going on another trip and will be without Civ until Friday. If Cabert plays soon and you guys want to keep it moving, I will be happy to swap with whoever gets it.

Cam_H · Apr 2, 2007

I support Cabert's plans as outlined in Post #507.

We really need to take Washington out of the game fairly promptly, and agree on whether Mehmed or Hannibal should be our target after that, because there will be a real threat of 'Old Viking Lands' coming under attack from one of these two leaders, which really poses some more difficult questions.

I think that we have to press ahead with a Domination-style game until we see some signs of aggression from Gandhi. He has not 'bitten' in any regard to our taunts and lures, and I suspect that until a certain catalyst is triggered (could be a technology, or a point on some chart, or 'something or other'?) that he simply will not invade. I am quite happy to continue to spread Judaism around with the hope that he founds the Temple of Solomon, but I'm now questioning whether we have to suffer "We fear for our safety" unhappiness, have idle Workers being used as bait (I recall I eventually activated the ones we had on the border and put them to use during my round), and other tactics that have been tried and failed.

I suspect we've got to take on the Ottomans or the Carthaginians within the next 50-ish turns, and I am really unhappy about not preparing a civil defence in 'Old Viking Lands' when it gets to that point.

Then again, my capacity to predict how this game behaves is at times 'less than great'! :lol:

One thing that's been on my mind regarding the Indian Galleon - I can't recall when Gandhi got Astronomy (if he even has it!). If not, I'm guessing the unit was gifted to him. Unfortunately I'm not near my Civ computer and can't check the game for a few days. I definitely did see an Indian Galleon! I did! I did!

Cabert - you'll see our Galleons are moving back home, but are in a Carthaginian city (just on the route home) - clearly these should go around the northern side with fresh troops if you want amphibious attacks to continue.

cabert · Apr 3, 2007

Cam_H said:
I support Cabert's plans as outlined in Post #507.

We really need to take Washington out of the game fairly promptly, and agree on whether Mehmed or Hannibal should be our target after that, because there will be a real threat of 'Old Viking Lands' coming under attack from one of these two leaders, which really poses some more difficult questions.

I don't think I will be attacking one of those any time soon (see below).

I think that we have to press ahead with a Domination-style game until we see some signs of aggression from Gandhi. He has not 'bitten' in any regard to our taunts and lures, and I suspect that until a certain catalyst is triggered (could be a technology, or a point on some chart, or 'something or other'?) that he simply will not invade. I am quite happy to continue to spread Judaism around with the hope that he founds the Temple of Solomon, but I'm now questioning whether we have to suffer "We fear for our safety" unhappiness, have idle Workers being used as bait (I recall I eventually activated the ones we had on the border and put them to use during my round), and other tactics that have been tried and failed.

we fear for our safety will be dealt with by the whip
I'm pretty sure we can use a few more markets, observatories, banks, to gift to gandhi. If they are destroyed in the taking, it gives him money which is good too.
Idle workers? no!
Cottaging workers? yes!
I believe Gandhi can be lured into attacking if he sees pillaging possibilities.

I suspect we've got to take on the Ottomans or the Carthaginians within the next 50-ish turns, and I am really unhappy about not preparing a civil defence in 'Old Viking Lands' when it gets to that point.

Mobile defense + an army of frigates will take care of any landing party.
I think we'll get more discussion before actually attacking one of those 2.
I'll post some screenies about the situation of those 2 leaders after I played my round (I didn't start yet).

Then again, my capacity to predict how this game behaves is at times 'less than great'!

On the contrary!
You were the one saying before the game started that Gandhi wasn't taking cities and that he needed to be baited. :goodjob:

Too bad you didn't come up with a good way to do it. :mischief:

One thing that's been on my mind regarding the Indian Galleon - I can't recall when Gandhi got Astronomy (if he even has it!). If not, I'm guessing the unit was gifted to him. Unfortunately I'm not near my Civ computer and can't check the game for a few days. I definitely did see an Indian Galleon! I did! I did!

I'll check if
- he has astronomy (too bad for the colossus, but good for the tech rate)
- he has galleons

Cabert - you'll see our Galleons are moving back home, but are in a Carthaginian city (just on the route home) - clearly these should go around the northern side with fresh troops if you want amphibious attacks to continue.

good to know

Cam_H · Apr 3, 2007

cabert said:
Too bad you didn't come up with a good way to do it.

Well eventually he did, but he had land-based units within a distance that could actually attack my Explorer, Worker, etc. ... even then it was painfully slow with little momentum to the attacks.

He might be more tempted by an unescorted Settler than an unescorted Worker? ... dunno :undecide:

cabert said:
good to know

It's just that you might think that I was harbouring our Galleons in a foreign city for no apparent reason - I wasn't ... they were on the move back to Old Sarai.

cabert · Apr 3, 2007

So I played 10 turns (long to play!) :

the very short version:
- no more America
- no landing from Gandhi
- we have steel
- no tech trading this turnset, but resource trading that was not team approuved (it's cancellable now if required)

The somewhat longer version :
took over in the turn 298 (1448 AD), checked a few things :
- we are safe from domination (half the pop and land required)
- second biggest are brennus and hannibal
- mehmed is the most advanced and doesn't want to tech trade with us. He is OK with gifting us money though

: 130 free gold.
- hannibal is willing to trade techs, but being my favourite next target, I don't want to give him chemistry. Note that Mehmed already has chemistry :eek:

. He is also willing to gift us 150 gold

.
- I think we're bleeding money in an inacceptable way. So I trade spice to Hannibal for 12 gold/turn, and spice for 11 gold per turn to Brennus. I also MM our cities to make sure all our cottages are worked.
- I checked Brennus/gandhi relations : Gandhi is pleased with Brennus, but Brennus is only cautious to Gandhi (that's why I went for the resource trade, but maybe we need to cancel those now)
- checked our troops position.

Moved our 4 berserkers + our warlord out of the city they were and attached the warlord to one berserker.
They all went to 10XP, all got upgraded to CR3, combat 1, amphibious grenadiers. One for free, the other for a little more than our "free money". Moved all our "free" troops to the SWestern city (new or old sarai?) to get lifted to the front.
- checked our production. Switched turfan to forge (66 turns to observatory was a bit long, and the forge was good for happiness). The rest was OK IMHO.

Next turn, Atlanta falls to our landstack.
After that, it's logistics.
One shot to enjoy :

the confucianist shrine is obviously good for us.

In 1490, America would capitulate to us. No way pal, we need your cities.
In 1502, the 2 last cities fall to our amphibious stacks.
I move our units towards carthage.
Beware of Atlanta : we have 7% odds of revolt there!

Hannibal would trade chemistry for nationalism and a few pennies.
Mehmed is still in WFYABTA domain.

Some screenies to see where all this stands.

turfan got whipped hard (because it can grow fast and has a lot of happiness reserve)

Hannibal is best in GNP, power and production. This all means he must die IMHO.

Finally a homeland shot.
There is room for a lot of not totally whacky cities.

If Gandhi finally comes for us (which is under way IMHO, he has a navy stack building up), it could do him good.

The hopelessly long version (turnlog)

Spoiler :

pigswill · Apr 3, 2007

Mr Mahk is UP (but not available until w/e)
Patagonia is On Deck (unless he wants to nip in first).

Nice warfare set from cabert.

America is gone!

Gandhi remains self-absorbed.

While I like the idea of more cities on Gandhiland-to-be I don't like the city maintenance.

Always nice to get steel. Drydocks as well as cannons.

Are we looking at America-no-more as Vinland? If so it might be worth thinking about scope for city specialisation.

Cam_H · Apr 3, 2007

Cabert,

Well done - looks as though all's going to plan and pretty much as expected.

On the proposed cities ...

cabert said:
I too vote against junk cities.

Since Post #465, Mehmed settled on one of the spots, and now Cabert's "adopted a more flexible approach to the issue" and picked up on some of the other possibilities. I admit, there will be an additional maintenance cost - but I can't see it being 'game breaking' in any respect, and some of them will quickly pay for themselves if working commercial tiles. I originally proposed that we build Settlers to fend off peaceful incursions on our lands, which could settle on the spot if a rival sent a Settler pair (or conversely be shipped over to the other continent if Gandhi did indeed attack). There is an 'opportunity cost' aspect however - we will be missing other builds in existing cities and stagnating their growth by diverting efforts towards Settlers.

Hasn't cabert got another five turns to play?

Good suggestion Piggy re. specialising 'Vineland' cities.

Spikes on the Power Chart for both Mehmed and Hannibal - Rifles? :eek:

I'm pleased about Turfan getting the Observatory :goodjob:

... now it needs to grow.

cabert · Apr 4, 2007

Cam_H said:
Cabert,

Well done - looks as though all's going to plan and pretty much as expected.

Mostly, yes.
Thanks for the units

I captures all the cities with very few losses (one cat I remember, and I think that's all!), thanks to thegood effort you put on this :goodjob:

.
I didn't use a single self (I mean by me) built unit, meaning that everything was in very good shape for the conquest.

On the proposed cities ... Since Post #465, Mehmed settled on one of the spots, and now Cabert's "adopted a more flexible approach to the issue" and picked up on some of the other possibilities. I admit, there will be an additional maintenance cost - but I can't see it being 'game breaking' in any respect, and some of them will quickly pay for themselves if working commercial tiles. I originally proposed that we build Settlers to fend off peaceful incursions on our lands, which could settle on the spot if a rival sent a Settler pair (or conversely be shipped over to the other continent if Gandhi did indeed attack). There is an 'opportunity cost' aspect however - we will be missing other builds in existing cities and stagnating their growth by diverting efforts towards Settlers.

I still don't see a point in junk cities.
But a city with fish and hills is hardly a junk city!
I also noted a few minor cities on the map, because there are unused tiles, but those are really junk for now.
It's probably better to let gandhi settle them if he wants to.

Hasn't cabert got another five turns to play?

I stopped, because :
- it was late, my wife was already in bed and I was tired
- next turn I would attack Hannibal, and this isn't agreed on yet

. I thought it was a good time to discuss, although I could play 5 more today or tomorrow if the next player is unavailable.

Good suggestion Piggy re. specialising 'Vineland' cities.

yep. I didn't put any thoughts on it, and postponed IW and FP until we discussed it.

Spikes on the Power Chart for both Mehmed and Hannibal - Rifles?

yep. Not something that our amphibious CR3 grenadiers would fear

.

I'm pleased about Turfan getting the Observatory ... now it needs to grow.

right. We took a bad hit in the research departement after I whipped Turfan. Time to grow indeed.

edit : about Gandhi, I think there are 2 reasons why he doesn't attack:
- I have a frigate near his cities (well, it's on our crabs or clams, but it's in striking distance of one of his cities). This needs to be removed. He feels threatened and doesn't dare sending out units because of this.
- Our power is a lot higher than his. (edit : his power is higher than ours, but he is a chicken and sees his own power with a penalty of 20% AFAIK) We need to lose some units. Attacking hanibal is a good way to get our power down.

SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Big mouth

Warlord

Emperor

Deity

Big mouth

fly (one day)

Warlord

Deity

Big mouth

Deity

Big mouth

fly (one day)

Deity

Big mouth

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