SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[remconius]

Good stuff, Cabert.

I think Gandhi will feel less threatened when we are fighting on the hannibal front. We probably dont have to lose units, but if we spread the power over more cities, and Gandhi and Hannibal are fighting us together he should feel safer.

 

[Cam_H]

Our power is a lot higher than his. We need to lose some units. Attacking hanibal is a good way to get our power down.

I thought that his power has been consistently higher than anyone's for quite a while?

Could someone put a case for attacking Hannibal instead of Mehmed? Mehmed's the technology leader (well he was when I was playing my rounds - sorry, I can't check the current game) and I think of greater concern than Hannibal. I assume that both leaders are still Pleased with us. I also think that if we want to attack Spain, that the momentum will be heading that direction anyway by going after the Ottomans.

Patagonia - are you still with us?

 

[patagonia]

Patagonia - are you still with us?

Just about...

I've had a look at the save and my gut instinct would be to go after Hannibal because he's the biggest long-term threat to Gandhi. He's also built cottages which will suit our needs better than the farms Mehmed's workers have developed. Mehmed won't win the game from his current position in terms of land and tech/power edge over the others.

However, can we get away with going after Hannibal immediately?

Hannibal's got rifling and is at most a tech away from cavalry for which we have no counter, but the longer we wait the more of these fancy new units he'll be able to throw at us. Our army is 100% offensive so we'll likely take losses trying to hold his cities unless we stock up on a few CG2 units beforehand, but it'll take most of my set to get them built and ferried over from the old world. Rifles are a much better defensive unit than grenadiers, but they're a way off yet, and there's one more factor to consider - we can still build Berzerkers until rifling's complete which means our supply of amphibious city raiders is replenishable at a price.

Some rather disorganized thoughts on the pros/cons of an immediate declaration there...

If the team votes in favour of war with the Carthaginians, my 10 will probably be sufficiently long to position forces and launch the opening salvo. Personally, I'd vote for a dual naval assult. One army will capture Washington, freeing New York and Atlanta from cultural pressure and creating a single counterattack point on that front. Another army would capture whichever city contains the Carthaginian fleet to protect our homeland from counterattack and secure naval supremacy for the remainder of the war. Positioning forces to take Washington will give us time to scout out its location.

As for founding new cities, I don't think that's worthwhile at the moment. Unless Gandhi grows a pair (more likely now that he has astronomy), they won't do anyone any good and there's more than enough out there for him to capture as it is. Some of the suggested sites will ultimately only make 4-5 extra tiles workable in the late game anyway.

If anybody has a chance to look at the save, some thoughts on city specialisation/national wonder building in the new world wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 

[cabert]

^^about a war with mehmed rather than hannibal, patagonia is 100% right : carthage has more land = bigger long term threat.
+ mehmed is in free religion, which means he is not gandhi's enemy, whereas hannibal is hindu
+ hannibal has bigger production capacity which we need to bring down.

About tactics, I wouldn't try to turtle up and wait for a counterattack. If we keep on taking cities, we won't need to defend.
Our army is brilliant in city taking, not in city keeping.
In fact, we can choose one of the 2 following options :
- killing units in cities to destroy his counterattack possibilities. This means targetting the capital. If we threaten his capital and keep destroying units there, there will be no counterattack.
- taking/razing smaller cities. If he takes them back, it's no big deal. We just take them again. Defensive troops = combat 2 pikemen and CD2 longbows. We have none of those things .

About city specialization, I can only say that Atlanta is our money city . If we take carthaginian cities, a forbidden palace in Atlanta is good.
I didn't notice any great hammer city, but I was too busy taking cities (Seattle might be a good candidate for IW).

edit : cam, you're right gandhi has more power than anyone, but he is a chicken

 

[pigswill]

What about just taking and razing? I like Patagonia's idea of locating Hannibal's naval stockpile and demolishing it. Until Gandhi gets round to invading does it really matter if Hannibal captures all of America if he's losing his old empire in the process.

 

[stuge]

Pago's plan sounds good to me, especially the bit about achieving naval supremacy. Do try to use our frigates/amphibious forces for Sirian doctrine to an extent. The more units we kill and the more cities we capture on the first turn of war the easier the rest will be.

Strike first, strike hard enough and you'll never need to strike again.

 

[pigswill]

I guess we're waiting for Mr Mahk at the weekend.

Cabert, do you want to play five turns to bring you up to 15 or rest on your laurels?

 

[MrMahk]

I guess we're waiting for Mr Mahk at the weekend.

Cabert, do you want to play five turns to bring you up to 15 or rest on your laurels?

Hey guys, just checking in. I will probably be back tomorrow night. However, I still need to read over and digest the discussion of the last couple days, so if someone else has time and wants to play, that's fine by me.

 

[patagonia]

I can play on Friday morning if the rest of the team are OK with that...

 

[pigswill]

Fine by me.

 

[cabert]

I guess we're waiting for Mr Mahk at the weekend.

Cabert, do you want to play five turns to bring you up to 15 or rest on your laurels?

not really, Patagonia can play (maybe he does already )

 

[patagonia]

I've played 10 turns, but in a break from tradition have stopped at the beginning of the final turn as we may want a bit more discussion before the next player takes over.

Having scouted out Hannibal's lands, he doesn't seem to have anything resembling a navy. However, he does have military tradition and has just picked up chemistry, which makes war a slightly dicier prospect.

He has two stacks sat in coastal cities which we have troops in place to weaken immediately. A main one in Washington:



And a minor one in Sicca:



Note that the stack in Washington is growing turn by turn. We need to take out Washington as New York has already had one revolt due to its culture. I still think declaring war is worth it, but it's going to be more costly due to the size of his stacks (especially in Washington). However, we'll be attacking from a position of relative impunity so it's not the end of the world if we get bogged down in a war for too long.

Gandhi has a stack of galleons in Delhi and a stack of units in Bombay, but seems to lack the intelligence to put the two together in any effective fashion. Hopefully war with Carthage will tip the balance in that respect.

In terms of trading, note that Gandhi is friends with Isabella and Brennus, but not with Hannibal or Mehmed.

I have uploaded the save, but forgot to copy the link - it'll be available from the progress and results page.

 

[pigswill]

I haven't tried amphib assualt before so I'm not really sure what to advise. Landing troops will make them vulnerable to cavalry which ain't good. While Hannibal's units are inthe city we'll get CR bonusses. Given grens' bonus attacking rifles I'd guess the cavalry would defend first; once cavalry are largely gone we can then think about landing our seige units.

 

[patagonia]

It took 7 turns to sail troops round for an amphibious assult on Washington, which is why we don't have quite enough there to finish the job in a single turn.

However, the siege can still be useful. They don't get amphibious bonuses, but a suicide cat or two (either cats or cannon have barrage promotions) will soften up the defenders nicely for our grenadiers to do their funky stuff. If we can do sufficient collateral damage to whatever units remain in Washington, the AI will likely keep them there to heal rather than trying to capture New York or Atlanta, allowing us to finish them off with CR bonuses the following turn.

 

[cabert]

were are the frigates?
do we have enough to soften up the cultural defense a bit?
We don't need to be at 0% defense, but 60% is quite high.

I'd declare now (in fact I would have declared 10 turns ago ), and start bombing the defense.
After that check the odds for a CR3 grenadiers. If its above 70%, go for it.
Else suicide a few catapults. It should be easy, cavalry don't get defense bonus .


(Beware of his lonely city in our homeland : 2 cannons and 1 grenadier at least should monitor/take this city.)

 

[stuge]

Yep, bring the frigates to the party, if they aren't too far away. Hanny having no navy to speak of makes things even better.

 

[MrMahk]

Ok, I'm back and ready to take it assuming we come to an agreement.

The question is, should I declare?
-I took a look at the save, and I don't think it's a good idea going in the way we are now. The American cities have very thin defenses, and if we declare, Hannibal can easily take New York (which has 1 defender) with his cavalry.

-However, I am confident that we will be able to win this war. Our stacks could do a lot of damage to Hannibal's coastal cities, and we can use our naval supremacy to our advantage with bombarding frigates. It is also true that if we wait, Hanny will just keep building units which will make our task harder.

My vote is for declaring and starting to bombard, while bringing more frigates and units over, as well as protecting our vulnerable cities in ex-America. I will wait to hear from the rest of you and probably play tomorrow afternoon (evening for you guys ).

 

[stuge]

I'm in favor of declaring now. No big deal if Hanny captures Some cities in Vinland. Cavalry are easier to kill when they stay put. Besides, we know where his biggest offensive stacks are and can seriously weaken them before they get a chance to attack.

 

[pigswill]

Like I posted earlier until Gandhi declares it doesn't matter what happens to the american cities. Maybe if we appear to be losing Gandhi might get the courage to actually attack us. It might be worth locating and destroying Hannibal's horses so he can't build more cavalry.

 

[remconius]

Gandhi is first in power, and yet he does not attack. Maybe he waits for Chemistry and then goes after us....

Annoying... Looking back we might have been better off building less units. AI does tend to go after large land, low defense.

I think if we are at war with Hannibal, Gandhi might feel confident enough.