SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[patagonia]

Just had a look at the save.

A few thoughts:

1. Gandhi's in trouble - I think he's likely to run out of time before being able to launch even if we cripple the other's construction efforts.
2. We can switch off tech once we've picked up constitution, democracy, railroad, combustion, physics, electricity, assembly line and industrialism in addition to communism - that's only 9 more needed (fascism would be nice, but not essential), which gives us (a) lots of time to stockpile cash for spies, and (b) lots of time to build fleets of 20-30 marines and battleships to go city razing if anyone starts building parts. Mehmed's the tech leader and every single one of his cities is coastal...
3. Now that Hannibal's gone, do we want our army in New Vinland or Old Vinland? I'd say the old country, but if Gandhi makes a move anywhere I'll try to encourage him to capture cities.
4. Once communism's in, do we revolt to free speech or nationalism (to draft our former Carthaginian cities some defenders) along with state property? It'll be 3 turns of anarchy for one or two switches and I think vassalage is outliving it's current usefulness (we're currently too far behind in tech to go up against anyone soon).
5. I'll ramp up research to get Communism in 7 (try to beg some money off Mehmed to fund the deficit) so that I can pass the game on once anarchy's over.

Any comments/suggestions? I'll probably play in about 24hrs.

 

[cabert]

Just had a look at the save.

A few thoughts:

1. Gandhi's in trouble - I think he's likely to run out of time before being able to launch even if we cripple the other's construction efforts.
2. We can switch off tech once we've picked up constitution, democracy, railroad, combustion, physics, electricity, assembly line and industrialism in addition to communism - that's only 9 more needed (fascism would be nice, but not essential), which gives us (a) lots of time to stockpile cash for spies, and (b) lots of time to build fleets of 20-30 marines and battleships to go city razing if anyone starts building parts. Mehmed's the tech leader and every single one of his cities is coastal...
3. Now that Hannibal's gone, do we want our army in New Vinland or Old Vinland? I'd say the old country, but if Gandhi makes a move anywhere I'll try to encourage him to capture cities.
4. Once communism's in, do we revolt to free speech or nationalism (to draft our former Carthaginian cities some defenders) along with state property? It'll be 3 turns of anarchy for one or two switches and I think vassalage is outliving it's current usefulness (we're currently too far behind in tech to go up against anyone soon).
5. I'll ramp up research to get Communism in 7 (try to beg some money off Mehmed to fund the deficit) so that I can pass the game on once anarchy's over.

Any comments/suggestions? I'll probably play in about 24hrs.

sounds good, although a bit depressing
yep change to state property

 

[pigswill]

I'm going to repeat my 'abandon Vinland' line. Don't need to draft rifles in cities we're abandoning (though it is a very cheap way of getting an army to export to the Olde Worlde).

 

[stuge]

And pray for a miracle. Maybe a giant anvil drops on Gandhi's head and some pissed-off regent takes over.

 

[pigswill]

But are we down-hearted?

 

[stuge]

No. To the stars we yearn and to the stars we will get.
(The thought of taking out Mehmed's whole empire in one turn is hilarious.)

 

[patagonia]

Here's the new save.

I've pulled our army back to the old country, just leaving one unit per city behind. It was randomly split into a northern force (based in Nidaros) and a southern force, based in Karakorum) to better defend the old country. There may be the odd slow unit on a goto to one of those cities.

Communism's in and we've just finished revolting to state property and free speech. The difference is immense - from losing about 130gpt @70% science, to breaking even. We're now number 1 in GNP! I've set research to railroad, which seems like the best thing to go for next. After we've invested 2-3 turns, Isabella may trade us the rest in exchange for communism, which wouldn't be a bad deal considering how far behind we are. I did a quick spot of MM around the empire at the end of the set, encouraging growth and commerce in most of our cities as they're way under happy/health caps now that all the WW has gone. The next player has the fun task of rounding up the workers in Old Vinland to convert some of the farms to watermills.

We should probably start thinking about national wonders. I started the ironworks in Nidaros, and then realised once state property was in that Samarquand is probably a better spot. Alternatively, we could stick HE/WP there. Those two have good potential as production cities long term anyway. Karakorum is comfortably our number 1 commerce city, which means it should probably get wall street. The reason I say that and not Oxford is that we'll be pretty much done researching by the time we can build that, and if we're running high tax for spies etc, that'll be the place to convert commerce to gold.

I think Mehmed will probably beat us to the Kremlin, although we do have stone and he doesn't. We could have a stab at it somewhere as that'd be a big boost in the endgame (US + 100% tax = armies!).

As far as Gandhi's concerned, I sank about 5-10 caravels as they were annoying me. Apart from that he's done some good things (build the SoL, capture a couple of workers and hook up horses for Cavalry), and a couple of ones (take the worker next to a defenseless Sicca and then not take the city). No sign of him invading anywhere yet though, surprise surprise...

 

[pigswill]

If MrMahk is busy then I guess that makes me UP.

I'll bide a while for cunning plans and sage advice.

 

[Cam_H]

Patagonia,

Sorry - I can't look at the game, but the priority National Wonder for me is now Scotland Yard. It doesn't have to upset any other city combo in particular, but I'd like it with a -heavy spot as I suspect we might be going through a few of them at times.

It does sound like a good turnset - I'm very disappointed that Gandhi didn't take the defenseless Sicca though ... even in my test game he took defenseless cities when he had units adjacent to them.

Settlers for central Carthage before another tribe grabs the available spots (other than India!)?

 

[patagonia]

Settlers for central Carthage before another tribe grabs the available spots (other than India!)?

I think there's only one viable city spot in central Carthage (the site of a razed Carthaginian city), but that's safely tucked away in the fog so I wouldn't worry too much about anyone settling it.

In terms of plans for the next turnset, I think the important thing is to use Isabella to trade with to tech as quickly as possible (we'll need MT for WP which makes one additional tech required). We need more workers in Old Vinland to get things railroaded quickly (the single biggest boost we can make to national security). War with anyone should be avoided if possible, preferably until we've finished teching, but definitely until we've got combustion and a fleet of destroyers. Instead we need to focus on economic development, so city growth, civilian builds and cottages/watermills. Our commerce is centred in Old Mongolia so emphasising those as future wealth-producing cities and our original Viking core as production powerhouses makes sense to me. We need to have completed our Stalinist industrialisation ready to hit Mehmed before he gets to robotics if possible (stacks of mechs will be painful to take out).

The way I see it, our eventual aim is to switch to emancipation/US, run 100% tax and rush-buy units/spies. In terms of spies, it probably makes sense to pair Scotland Yard with Ironworks and HE/WP so that we can produce good units fast and pump out one spy per turn when needed.

 

[pigswill]

Got it.

Initial thoughts

Patagonia: as you know workers can't capture cities. Gandhi does seem to be a bit cautious.

On the other hand we also have been a bit cautious in our strategy.

Time to abandon vinland completely, remove all units.If someone else captures our cities instead of Gandhi then they do but we aint at war with anyone at the moment.

Could do with cheering up Brennus a bit; maybe give him some resources.

Our mainland cities are very small which ain't helping either.

Mehmed is a lousy trading partner, as bad as vanilla Tokugawa.

Do we want a number of equal size cities on mainland or a mixture of big cities and fishing villages?

Railroad is on the way to combustion which is nice if we want destroyers.

 

[patagonia]

I'd leave one unit per city behind - might as well keep them happy and profitable if nobody's going to bite, and they're bringing in a decent amount of commerce by and large.

Don't give Brennus resources unless he demands them. Strengthening him further for the sake of an eventual +1 seems a bit foolish to my mind. If any of the AI declare on us in the next 20-30 turns, it'll be him without a doubt so helping him now would be counterproductive.

I think the mainland cities are small as they were recently heavily whipped to try to reduce their size and thus our power rating to encourage an attack from Gandhi that never materialised. I've set to work on regrowing them again. It looks like we've got the health and happiness to grow, grow, grow, so I'd make the best cities as large as possible and work water tiles with the rest. Ideally we need a couple of good cities on each coast for naval production though.

 

[pigswill]

Played ten turns up to 1770.
Very quiet, traded communism for railroad with Isabella after 5 turns of research. Recalled our workers to help build railroads starting with mines/lumbermills around Samarquand for Scotland Yard and Nidaros for Ironworks.

First worker bait at Sicca failed, Gandhi took the worker then his longbow retreated from the undefended city , second worker bait at Sicca worked:

Switched all of Vinland cities to research coz if we're tring to lose them there's little point in building infrastructure there. Picked up combustion in second 5 turns. Starting on corporation as AL prereq.

Traded corn to Brennus for 15gpt. Economy improving generally but a long way to go.


Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4//Trash_Team_SG004_AD1770_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Cam_H]

Go Gandhi! Go! The plan's finally working ... ever so gradually.

 

[cabert]

Go Gandhi! Go! The plan's finally working ... ever so gradually.

except the dead, he's still last... a long way to the top

I'm going in vacation today, please skip me for a while (should be back the 18th of may, but could be the 20th)

 

[pigswill]

Roster:

Remconius is UP

cabert is skipping on holiday

stuge is on deck

Mr Mahk: unsure of current status.

 

[Cam_H]

It's gone all quietly spooky again.

Remco ... you there?

 

[remconius]

Oops, didnt realize it was me. Life has been busy.

Got it, playing right now!

 

[remconius]

And what a turnset it was!

The Old G got a general and artist and captured 2 cities and is gaining momentum.... Who knows we might need to be scared soon! :O

Look at this force! The riflemen are scared and run away!!

And another invasion, the defense has left ages ago...

Whack!

Turn 400, 1770 AD: Mark Twain (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 401 (1772 AD)
Bactrian begins: Barracks
Birka begins: Harbor
Birka begins: Worker
Birka begins: Harbor
Birka begins: Harbor
Haithabu grows: 11
Phrygian grows: 10
Karakorum grows: 12
Atlanta finishes: Bank
San Francisco's borders expand
Washington grows: 14

Turn 402 (1774 AD)
Atlanta begins: Destroyer
Uppsala grows: 12
Samarqand grows: 12
Tiflis grows: 14
Atlanta grows: 7
Carthage grows: 12
Tabriz grows: 10
Frigate loses to: Indian Frigate (1.60/8)
Worker loses to: Indian Longbowman (6.00/6)

Turn 403 (1776 AD)
Carthage begins: Worker
Hippo begins: Worker
Nidaros grows: 12
Birka finishes: Worker
Beshbalik grows: 11
Bactrian grows: 9
Tiflis's borders expand
Bjørgvin finishes: Trading Post
Tabriz finishes: Drydock
Jelling grows: 4

Turn 404 (1778 AD)
Bjørgvin begins: Forge
Tabriz begins: Destroyer
New Sarai grows: 12
Turfan grows: 15
Washington grows: 15
Jelling finishes: Granary

Turn 405 (1780 AD)
Jelling begins: Barracks
Tech learned: Biology
Haithabu grows: 12
Kazan grows: 11
Ning-hsia grows: 9
Old Sarai grows: 10
New York grows: 8
Carthage's borders expand

Turn 406 (1782 AD)
Research begun: Constitution
Research begun: Corporation
Research begun: Assembly Line
Uppsala grows: 13
Birka grows: 12
Phrygian grows: 11
Karakorum grows: 13
Bactrian finishes: Barracks
Tiflis grows: 15
Carthage finishes: Worker
New Sarai lost
Frigate loses to: Indian Frigate (3.44/8)

Turn 406, 1782 AD: New Sarai (Trash Team) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!
Turn 407 (1784 AD)
Bactrian begins: Harbor
Tech learned: Constitution
Uppsala finishes: University
Karakorum finishes: Observatory
Bactrian grows: 10
Atlanta's borders expand
Philadelphia grows: 8
Boston's borders expand
Washington grows: 16
Hippo finishes: Worker
Worker loses to: Indian Pikeman (6.00/6)

Turn 408 (1786 AD)
Karakorum begins: Barracks
Uppsala grows: 14
Haithabu grows: 13
Birka grows: 13
Phrygian's borders expand
Samarqand grows: 13
Beshbalik grows: 12
Ning-hsia finishes: Drydock
Old Sarai finishes: Harbor
San Francisco grows: 12
Hadrumetum grows: 10
Jelling finishes: Barracks

Turn 409 (1788 AD)
Ning-hsia begins: Destroyer
Old Sarai begins: Destroyer
Jelling begins: Forge
Phrygian grows: 12
Kazan grows: 12
Bactrian grows: 11
Hippo finishes: Barracks

Turn 410 (1790 AD)
Hippo begins: Machine Gun
Tech learned: Corporation
Birka finishes: Harbor
Karakorum finishes: Barracks
Beshbalik finishes: Library
Tabriz grows: 11
Worker loses to: Indian Rifleman (14.00/14)

Turn 411 (1792 AD)
Birka begins: Stable
Karakorum begins: Cannon
Beshbalik begins: Cannon
Birka begins: Cannon
Boston begins: Worker
Uppsala grows: 15
Haithabu grows: 14
Birka grows: 14
Phrygian finishes: University
Kerkouane grows: 6
Karakorum grows: 14
Kazan finishes: Harbor
Tiflis grows: 16
Tiflis finishes: Market
Jelling grows: 5
Frigate loses to: Indian Frigate (0.40/8)

Turn 411, 1792 AD: Jayavarman II (Great General) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!

Turn 412 (1794 AD)
Phrygian begins: Machine Gun
Kazan begins: Destroyer
Nidaros grows: 13
Bactrian grows: 12
Carthage grows: 13

Turn 413 (1796 AD)
Samarqand grows: 14
Kazan grows: 13
Atlanta grows: 8
Washington grows: 17
Hadrumetum grows: 11

Turn 414 (1798 AD)
Uppsala grows: 16
Haithabu grows: 15
Phrygian grows: 13
Beshbalik grows: 13
San Francisco grows: 13
Jelling grows: 6
Hadrumetum lost

Turn 414, 1798 AD: Hadrumetum (Trash Team) has been captured by the Indian Empire!!!

THE SAVE

 

[pigswill]

Hurrah. Gandhi is moving (at last). Maybe we should dissuade excessive expansion in the old world because we still need a homeland.

We also need to keep an eye on Mehmed I guess (coz I haven't looked at the save) and may still need to exercise punitive sanctions against him.

Stuge is UP.