SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Washington is our biggest threat as a competitor to Gandhi, yet trading him Flight for Radio and cash is a good deal, unless Rocketry allows him jets, I've forgotten, as jet fighters will eat our bombers.

Do I hear that we should go after Washington as soon as we have a force of Tanks and Bombers built?

Jet Fighters require Composites Tech, Flight, Oil and Aluminum. Fighters require Oil in addition to Flight. Near as I can see, W's only Oil source is near Philadelphia and is out of range of any Bombers that we could currently station. I recommend we build a Carrier and have 3 Fighters to man it. Pillaging that Oil will save us a lot of grief!

The AI does not make good use of bombers, preferring to use them as pillaging tools rather than striking at units so I have little concern that way. They will build lots of jet fighters though, if they can, and those weasels will tear up a bomber fleet.

Glad to hear this. Bombers can sure ruin a stack when used in mass!

Nice piece of business, there, Fred! The last thing I would have expected is Hannibal going on bended knee to the Queen!

Must have been a beautiful sight? The great Hannibal having to suck up to Izzie.

I will be able to play, though slowly. Modern technologies and especially warfare are unfamiliar to me. Haven't used aircraft or tanks since CivII, and I doubt I'll remember much of that. I am going to have a long look at the save and come back with questions and suggestions to elicit feedback and recommendations.

I wish I could say this. Been spending too much time here because I can't win my games fast enough...

Would like to understand . . . " Carthage is now filled with our troops and chance of revolt is zero." Do troops prevent revolts, or are the two unrelated?

I'm glad you asked this because I learned something from the Civilopedia this evening reading up on this, although I don't have a full answer to your question.

There are 3 ways that your city can be incapacitated, so to speak.
1. When you are not Spiritual, you must revolt to change civics.

2. When your city revolts because of cultural conversion. The city must revolt twice. The first time is a warning and the second time it will "flip" to the other culture. Here is the surprise for me, that a city that is captured militarily will never "flip" back to the original owner no matter how much cultural pressure is applied. It may be useless as it will constantly be in resistance, but it will not "flip".

3. When your city is in resistance after it is captured by you. The amount of time spent in resistance is determined by how similar you are to the civ you captured the city from. If the city is of the same religion, resistance is much shorter. (Should we look at the religion of our cities that we want to "give" to Gandhi? Would cities with his state religion make the transition to him quicker?) Having Temples of that religion also help.

Very interesting stuff!

The civilopedia does recommend that you garrison captured cities with at least one unit, preferably two. Not sure of the effect.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The more I look at the save and think about it, the more aware I become of my igorance and inexperience. Here are a few matters that I could use some advice on (probably more tomorrow before and during play):

Any objections to my removing the troops from Upsalla to encourage G to take it? I know that G's ww is a concern, but how long before spies become available? Also, how much of a problem will the culture from Nidaros be to the utility of Upsalla?

I understand the need for a carrier and three fighters -- and I will tend to their construction -- but the relative priority of units is unclear. What to build between SAM infantry, marines, and tanks; between gunships, fighters, and bombers; and between battleships, submarines, and carriers?

Airports? Where?

Do fighters and bombers need airports?

How much collateral damage do bombers do to how many of a city's defending units? (They're expensive.)

What does (or will) W have that will prevent our future bombers from inflicting collateral damage on his city defenders?

Is it worthwhile to upgrade cavalry to gunships or infantry to SAM infantry?

Research priorities: Radio, then Rocketry? then?

I've read no mention of the oil platform off the NY coast. Is that not a concern?

Where's Houston?

Any objection to gifting H corn to slowly improve relations?

I'd like some discussion of this line of thought: Why not go ahead and trade Flight for Radio and gold, since we are in a much better position to take out W's oil and uranium than he is ours. We have a bigger land army and a bigger navy. Therefore, we don't want to wait for the air war to be significant, anyway. Rather, we want to attack before his technology offsets our quantitative advantage. Once we are able to pillage his oil and uranium, we should get on with it. After whatever small airforce he has managed to build before we get out carrier (and fighters) in position has attacked, then our larger force (including a small airforce that should controls the skies) will certainly prevail.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Any objections to my removing the troops from Upsalla to encourage G to take it? I know that G's ww is a concern, but how long before spies become available? Also, how much of a problem will the culture from Nidaros be to the utility of Upsalla?

Scotland Yard is due in 8 turns. I think the culture of Bombay will help Gandhi when he gets Uppsala.

I understand the need for a carrier and three fighters -- and I will tend to their construction -- but the relative priority of units is unclear. What to build between SAM infantry, marines, and tanks; between gunships, fighters, and bombers; and between battleships, submarines, and carriers?

I would prioritize tanks. A single SAM and a single marine in each stack would, however, be good in order to defend against gunships and artillery. We only have 4 amphibious infantry left so amphibious attacks are less attractive now. A few gunships to defend against tanks would also be good.

Airports? Where?

Place them so that we can airlift troops to the battlefield. And remember that an airport add unhealth.

Do fighters and bombers need airports?

No, they can be built and based in any city.

]How much collateral damage do bombers do to how many of a city's defending units? (They're expensive.)

5 defenders will get collateral damage. How much I don't know. They can bomb away culture a well (similar to destroyers).

What does (or will) W have that will prevent our future bombers from inflicting collateral damage on his city defenders?

Fighters, destroyers and SAM infantry.

Is it worthwhile to upgrade cavalry to gunships or infantry to SAM infantry?

We could upgrade a few. SAM infantry has 50% against gunship, but is weaker than infantry in ground combat. Gunships have 100% against tanks.

Research priorities: Radio, then Rocketry? then?

Computers or Plastic. If we want to build the Space Elevator for Gandhi we should be aiming for Robotics soon. We also need Satellites for this.

I've read no mention of the oil platform off the NY coast. Is that not a concern?

Should be pillaged when we attack.

Any objection to gifting H corn to slowly improve relations?

No.

I'd like some discussion of this line of thought: Why not go ahead and trade Flight for Radio and gold, since we are in a much better position to take out W's oil and uranium than he is ours. We have a bigger land army and a bigger navy. Therefore, we don't want to wait for the air war to be significant, anyway. Rather, we want to attack before his technology offsets our quantitative advantage. Once we are able to pillage his oil and uranium, we should get on with it. After whatever small airforce he has managed to build before we get out carrier (and fighters) in position has attacked, then our larger force (including a small airforce that should controls the skies) will certainly prevail.

I'm also in favor of making the trade. With our superior production capacity we can build an air force much faster than Washington. And we shouldn't wait too long before we attack because we don't want to be fighting against Modern Armor.

 

[leif erikson]

Any objections to my removing the troops from Upsalla to encourage G to take it? I know that G's ww is a concern, but how long before spies become available? Also, how much of a problem will the culture from Nidaros be to the utility of Upsalla?

Not from me. I think we should encourage G to take it. Nidaros will interfere with its full cultural expansion, but I don't think it is a problem as Bombay is nearby and G controls the food resource.

I understand the need for a carrier and three fighters -- and I will tend to their construction -- but the relative priority of units is unclear. What to build between SAM infantry, marines, and tanks; between gunships, fighters, and bombers; and between battleships, submarines, and carriers?

I think Frederiksberg did a good job on this one.

Except I would also prioritize Bombers until we have 10 to 15.

Airports? Where?

Do fighters and bombers need airports?

I think we need at least one in each area we control. Turfan might be a good place along with, perhaps Kerkouane or Carthage, Tolosa and Bursa.

This would allow us to quickly move Spies as necessary along with military units as needed.

How much collateral damage do bombers do to how many of a city's defending units? (They're expensive.)

A stack of 6 to 10 Bombers will quickly and easily take nearly any unit stack to 50% strength in a turn, depending upon the number of units in the stack. Their range is their greatest asset as a stack can reach out and touch whatever you need disrupted.

While I would still produce some Artillery, perhaps one city working on it, I would prioritize Tanks and Bombers.

What does (or will) W have that will prevent our future bombers from inflicting collateral damage on his city defenders?

SAM Infantry, Destroyers and Fighters. They usually do not clean cut shoot down the Bombers but take away some percentage of strength. So they can heal over time.

Is it worthwhile to upgrade cavalry to gunships or infantry to SAM infantry?

Cavalry, yes. Infantry, not so many.

Research priorities: Radio, then Rocketry? then?

I would say Radio, Rocketry, Computers, Robotics and Satellites because we may be able to trade some of that to get others?

We may be able to get some tech through peace deals as well.

I've read no mention of the oil platform off the NY coast. Is that not a concern?

It can be pillaged with our current Naval assets, so we don't really need to build anything to specifically attack it.

Where's Houston?

Any objection to gifting H corn to slowly improve relations?

None.

I'd like some discussion of this line of thought: Why not go ahead and trade Flight for Radio and gold, since we are in a much better position to take out W's oil and uranium than he is ours. We have a bigger land army and a bigger navy. Therefore, we don't want to wait for the air war to be significant, anyway. Rather, we want to attack before his technology offsets our quantitative advantage. Once we are able to pillage his oil and uranium, we should get on with it. After whatever small airforce he has managed to build before we get out carrier (and fighters) in position has attacked, then our larger force (including a small airforce that should controls the skies) will certainly prevail.

I have no objection to doing this deal. The discussion has shown me the merits of the idea.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the good advice. Your agreement gives me great confidence. Have a couple more questions before I play a turn or two (probably sometime this evening):

Between battleships, submarines, and carriers, what is the priority, and (other than a carrier) should I be building any additional navy?

How do destroyers interact with bombers and fighters?

If I move troops out of Carthage, do anarchy and/or flipping again become possibilities?

Thinking about pilaging roads from Washington to NY (perhaps with fighters), capturing NY, then moving bombers there to go after Washington with combined arms. Know that won't all happen in my turn, but I will at least set up for that if it makes sense to the team.

Will try to get W's map in trade to find Houston.

I'll post again just before I begin play.

 

[rrau]

Between battleships, submarines, and carriers, what is the priority, and (other than a carrier) should I be building any additional navy?

A couple battleships to protect the carrier. In my opinion, submarines are pretty useless against destroyers and battleships. I mostly use them to recon a city on the coast before I get flight. Once I get flight, much easier to recon with the planes.

How do destroyers interact with bombers and fighters?

They can be bombed. Once I get flight and an airport for every 3rd city or so, I rarely use the navy -- except I do use it as sitting ducks to suck off the enemy's bombing attacks from my troops

If I move troops out of Carthage, do anarchy and/or flipping again become possibilities?

Likely......It depends on how long it's been and if you've built any culture in it yet.

Thinking about pilaging roads from Washington to NY (perhaps with fighters), capturing NY, then moving bombers there to go after Washington with combined arms. Know that won't all happen in my turn, but I will at least set up for that if it makes sense to the team.

I know a lot of people like to pillage roads, but I think it hinders attacks/reinforcements more than it helps. I'll occasionally use it in middle age warfare to slow down attacking knights, but that's about it. *shrugs* Do whaever you like.

Just my thoughts.........don't know how much they're worth, though

[edit] Remember to watch for domination limit. You may need to burn some of W's cities. Only keep the best.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Between battleships, submarines, and carriers, what is the priority, and (other than a carrier) should I be building any additional navy?

Out of the 3 I would emphasize Battleships. They are stronger than destroyers and can also bomb down cultural defenses faster. Submarines are vulnerable to destroyers and I think one carrier is enough to do the pillaging we are contemplating.

How do destroyers interact with bombers and fighters?

Don't know for sure. I think they can intercept (Prob. 30%) and damage or kill aircraft that are attacking them. Same as for SAM infantry.

If I move troops out of Carthage, do anarchy and/or flipping again become possibilities?

Maybe. Viking culture is increasing in Carthage so it's possible that most of the troops can be moved out now. You can monitor the flip probability as explained by Bede in his recent post.

Thinking about pilaging roads from Washington to NY (perhaps with fighters), capturing NY, then moving bombers there to go after Washington with combined arms. Know that won't all happen in my turn, but I will at least set up for that if it makes sense to the team.

Yes. I think we should attack in multiple places to shorten the war as much as possible. That way we can avoid having to change civics once more.

 

[Bede]

Lots of good thinking here.

I happen to be an air force junkie - I can't have enough planes. And don't forget the cheaper fighters in the mix as they can strike at units as well and are useful to draw fire from SAMs and the opponent's fighters, leaving a clearer path for the bombers. SAMs typically will not kill another aircraft at 100% health, nor can prop driven fighters, jet fighters maybe.

My ideal scenario for an islands attack like this one starts with two rounds of air strikes on at least two cities: the target and one other town most likely to send reinforcements to the target or a counter attack at the target when captured while the ground troops get into postion to strike at the conclusion of the air strikes on the second round. And don't forget the use of naval bomardment in reducing the defenses of these mostly coastal towns. It really, really helps.

Pillaging roads and resources is a less than useful tactic unless an offensive has stalled for some reason. Better to use that ordinance to keep the enemy's troops weakened. If you need to halt for more than three or four tunrs and have killed some of your opponent's resource based troops in the early going, then by all means deny him the resource to build more. You just need to be careful of the possibility of a traded replacement.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I was thinking of pillaging the roads so W's artillery could not weaken our bombers (and other units as well) when we move them into NY in preparation for attacking Washington on the next turn (or two, if we follow Bede's model). Since no one seemed to pick up on that, I'm concerned that I may be missing something.

Will play a bit tonight.

 

[Bede]

I was thinking of pillaging the roads so W's artillery could not weaken our bombers (and other units as well) when we move them into NY in preparation for attacking Washington on the next turn (or two, if we follow Bede's model). Since no one seemed to pick up on that, I'm concerned that I may be missing something.

Will play a bit tonight.

That's how naval or air recon can help. Locate the artillery park and hit it hard as the "second city". And I think the bombers will have range enough to reach without moving them up with the ground pounders.

That is where carriers can help keep an offensive moving as you can run an airstrike and then move the carriers and the carrier based aircraft are ready to go on the next turn at the next target.

 

[Frederiksberg]

As far as I can count we can reach both New York and Washington with bombers based in Utica.

 

[Cactus Pete]

As far as I can count we can reach both New York and Washington with bombers based in Utica.

Missed that; glad I asked. Thanks. Probably won't get to use it myself, but will work to get a bomber squadron in Utica.

Now playing . . .

 

[Cactus Pete]

I've played four uneventful turns. Here is the log:

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 435-439

435 (1825AD): Traded corn to H; traded Flight to W for Radio, gold, and world map (found Houston west of Carthage)
Science 70% -- Rocketry in 4 turns
Change a few builds to begin carrier in Hadrumetum (8 turns) and 3 fighters, plus a couple of bombers; airports in Tolosa and Bursa
Moved some destroyers and transports to better position them for war
Moved all units out of Upsalla
Note that W has completed Apollo program

436: Uneventful

437: Another Great Engineer is born. What to do with him?

438: An Indian galleon approaches Upsalla

439: Rocketry learned; Plastics being researched
Upgrade a few units to gunships and SAM infantry
Gandhi’s galleon does not unload; instead, his frigate begins to bombard undefended Upsalla . . . The AI is dumb and blind

What would you have me do with one of the two Great Engineers?

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Frederiksberg]

What would you have me do with one of the two Great Engineers?

I think we should use them for rushing wonders. Either we use them both for the Space Elevator meaning that we should be able to finalize it (One GE can supply about half the hammers needed. Alternatively we could build something else like West Point (+4XP in city), Wall Street (+100% gold in city), the Three Gorges Dam (Free hydro plants - requires Plastics) or Mount Rushmore (reduced WW - requires Fascism). We Will soon have another GG and West Point in New Sarai combined with another military instructor will allow the construction of 11XP units there.

 

[leif erikson]

W has completed Apollo. That is good as he may spend some valuable production on Space Ship parts.

I agree that the Great Engineers should be held to rush Wonders, particularly The Space Elevator. The Three Gorges Dam is attractive as a Wonder to give to G as well as it will speed his production on our former lands. I'm not sure we should spend them for West Point in New Sarai if we're going to give it up?

W is looking like someone who needs to be cut down to size, as long as we watch the domination limit.

Scotland Yard is nearly completed and with an Airport in Tolosa, we can air ship them to anywhere we need them except G's home island. Where should the first Spy go, W or G? (With Bomber recon available for W, we should probably send him to G?) We should probably wait to go after W until we have some in place to see what is going in with G, W and I. As we can build 4 spies, we should probably have one on G's continent, one on our home continent to check on G's progress there, one in W's area and one with Izzie.

I think I would move the Bomber to Utica and begin recon flights over W's territory to identify where his units are. A Bomber in Bursa would allow us to see the other side of W's territory. When we get ready to attack, we can concentrate them in the south to support our plan to take W down.

Keep up the good work CP.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We have an explorer in America and destroyers along the coast, so unit location is not a problem.

By the time my turn is over, we will nearly be in a position to attack W successfully. Thinking we should leave Assyrian standing, when we sue for peace, and raze NY, Houston, and SF. Think the remaining six cities would presently put us over the domination limit; however, if G will get his act together, he may solve that problem for us. Looking at the domination limit, before the next player begins the conquest of America, would seem critical.

Don't think we'll need West Point to deal with Spain, so the question is what wonders to build to help G. Space Elevator seems obvious, but I'm completely ignorant of what the benefits of Mt. Rushmore, Rock n' Roll, and the Eiffel Tower (broadcast towers) are . . . thinking ww might make happiness an issue for India. Would either of those help him?

We will indeed get a GG as soon as the war starts. Are there promotions available to modern units that would significantly grease the wheels of war?

Playing now . . . should finish this afternoon if nothing unexpected happens.

 

[leif erikson]

We have an explorer in America and destroyers along the coast, so unit location is not a problem.

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer here. While useful before the fight, it is even more useful once hostilities begin. The Explorer will die if left in W's territory while recon flights cover large areas and allow you to see where the AI is sending his units.

Hope all went well...

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 440-445

440 (1830): W has fighter now in Philadelphia and has researched Satellites

442: Scotland Yard completed – spy in training

443: G has managed to sneak two galleons and a frigate past my destroyer and down the coast towards Cold Mountain. Should not be able to do us much damage, but I am going to open the city to him . . . maybe he will enter it??
W will now trade Fascism and Biology . . . Wonder why, all of a sudden.

444: G pillages the fishing nets off Copper Mountain but does not enter the city. He also brilliantly continues to reduce Upsalla’s defenses. Check to make sure he still has a galleon in Bombay.
An Indian destroyer shows up west of Tartar.
W has completed SS casing

445 (1835): Plastics mastered; now developing Computers
G’s frigate and galleons pass Copper Mtn. by to pillage Nidaros’s fishing net and bombard the city – little choice but to attack them with two available destroyers, which generates a GG in Karakorum
Spy trained in Durnovaria – like GG and GEs, will leave disposition to next player


NOTES

Washington has not built up military in most of his cities. In two turns, we can be in a position to take out all his critical resources. We can sink most of his navy on the opening turn, and then effectively reduce his defenses with our destroyers. Waiting longer than that will just give him more time to build additional modern units.

The turn after next, our carrier (west of Sicca) will put three fighters in position to pillage W’s oil near Phily. We also have a transport full of amphibious infantry under destroyers five tiles north of Seattle. Thinking . . . attack the SAM infantry defending the oil with at least one of that infantry, and then pillage it with fighters.

Only the city of Washington is well defended (has one gunship, plus tank and marine or two, many infantry and artillery, but no air force yet), and I have spotted no battleships anywhere. It turns out that our bombers can’t reach Washington from Utica, so I suggest we fall back to plan of cutting the road to NY (perhaps with bombers, as we pillage the uranium), capture NY next turn after landing, then base bombers there to weaken Washington. W does not presently have open borders with H. (We may want to eventually gift NY to H, since his culture will impinge on it, and it will only add to the domination limit.)

W’s destroyers that remain in port and any air force that shows up, might be lured out by isolated transports, which we will have in excess after landing our troops.

I have left one galleon near Nidaros, but prevented it (I think) from landing units in the faint hope that it will retreat towards Copper Mtn. and perhaps take that city.

I’ve left the explorer unmoved at end of turn so next player can look around America a bit.

No airport started in former Carthaginian territory – didn’t judge it critical, couldn’t find good city for it, and hoping that W will build one for us

Many units are on transports hidden under destroyers


SAVE: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD1835_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[leif erikson]

Nice set CP, looks like a good set up!

It is nearly time to reduce W's holdings...

Roster:
Leif - UP
Gator - On Deck
Bede
RRAU
Sanabas
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete

CP raised the issue of which of W's cities to keep. He suggested we raze NY Houston and SF. I'd like to consider adding to the list LA, Seattle and, perhaps, Chicago? The idea of gifting NY to H is interesting. I think it is a good one.

Curious that W doesn't have any rails? It will require two turns for him to get anything except Tanks and Cavalry to NY.

I'd sure like to know what is on that Galleon near Nidaros? I think I'll open up a tile NE of Copper Mountain to see if he'll go for it? In the meantime, we'll need to get a Transport near Hittite/Birka to take a Spy over to Gandhi's home island.

Will plan to try to play tomorrow night (Thursday).

 

[Frederiksberg]

The turn after next, our carrier (west of Sicca) will put three fighters in position to pillage W’s oil near Phily. We also have a transport full of amphibious infantry under destroyers five tiles north of Seattle. Thinking . . . attack the SAM infantry defending the oil with at least one of that infantry, and then pillage it with fighters.

Don't forget to pillage the offshore platform as well.

It turns out that our bombers can’t reach Washington from Utica, so I suggest we fall back to plan of cutting the road to NY (perhaps with bombers, as we pillage the uranium), capture NY next turn after landing, then base bombers there to weaken Washington.

I suppose that we can't use Hannibals airspace and that's the reason our bombers are blocked from reaching Washington. Any chance of getting open borders?

W’s destroyers that remain in port and any air force that shows up, might be lured out by isolated transports, which we will have in excess after landing our troops.

Do want this? If the destroyers stay in port they will be destroyed when we capture the cities.