SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[Bede]

It is probably safe to move unescorted transports across to Verlamion. I would not send a galleon, though.

The Ottoman ships up by Tartar are the remnants of the fleet that delivered the landing in India. They must have been hiding in the fog as I picked off the ones that showed in our waters before sending the destroyer fleet SE to the seige of Istanbul.

Istanbul is reasonably well defended but our assault force is at least 2x the curretn defenses. With destroyer support you can reprise the Bibracte tactics. I have been working the defenses down while waiting for the troops to get healthy and for destroyer support.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Couple of thoughts:

A tech for peace would be nice.

I believe Ankara has an academy and that would make the GA even better spent. How soon can you get him there?

If Istanbul would cost severe casualties and/or lengthy delay of the attack, consider taking Ankara first, as it should be less well defended and not on a hill.

Regarding pop rushing . . . We have not built the Forbidden Palace, and Ottoman territory would seem optimal. If we use the GA in Ankara before we go to Emancipation, that might be the place to get it up and running quickly.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Bede, that eases worries a bit.

I have been looking at this a couple of ways. I think my greatest fear is that Mehmed will become a Vassal of Hannibal. That would stop our war immediately as we are not ready to take on Hannibal atm.

I think the goal is to take four of Mehmed's cities; Ankara (and use the GA there), Konya, Istanbul and Bursa. If we can leave Samsun for now and get a tech for peace, that would be ideal.

In order to meet the goal, I think I need to take Istanbul and, while the troops are healing, bring whatever we can over from Old Sarai, including lift capacity for the other troops in Verlamion, and then plan to attempt to take the other three cities and try to make peace on the same turn. With no inter-turn, he can't become a Vassal. Never tried to pull something like this off before, so it will be interesting to see if it can be done?

CP - In order to build the Forbidden Palace, there must be a Courthouse in the city. Also, at 300 Hammers, it require 13 pop to rush immediately and I think it will take some time before enough Hammers are accumulated to pop-rush it with only 5 available citizens (Ankara's pop is 11 atm.). Would be nice to do but I hope we have Democracy before then?

I'll run a Destroyer around for a quick recon before I do anything rash...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds like a sound plan.

"CP - In order to build the Forbidden Palace, there must be a Courthouse in the city. Also, at 300 Hammers, it require 13 pop to rush immediately and I think it will take some time before enough Hammers are accumulated to pop-rush it with only 5 available citizens (Ankara's pop is 11 atm.). Would be nice to do but I hope we have Democracy before then?"

Okay, obviously no credibility to that plan. Forbidden Palace should be on our intermediate to-do list.

 

[leif erikson]

Forbidden Palace should be on our intermediate to-do list.

Yup! I hope to see what Ankara looks like soon and, perhaps, we'll get a Great Engineer?

 

[rrau]

I'm going to be out of town the next week.

 

[leif erikson]

Time for a team consultation.

We've got problems as Mehmed has just discovered Artillery and has upgraded some of his attacking units.

Here is the log thus far:
Turn 360 – 1670AD
Pre-flight.
Use a destroyer to take a look at Istanbul. Five Rifles and two Cannons defending and there is 45% cultural defense. Take a screenie.

Change research to Democracy, due in 7 turns.
Wake workers SW of Nidaros and start railing towards Old Sarai.
Wake Transport in Old Sarai and send him towards Verlamion.
MM Bibracte by putting the Merchants to work.
Pop-rush a Courthouse in Tartar for 3 citizens and a Library in Verlamion for 2 citizens.
Press enter.

IBT
The Ottoman Frigate and Galleon go strolling by Tartar.
Tartar Courthouse => Grocer.
Verlamion Library => Theater.

Turn 361 – 1673 AD
Battle of Istanbul.
Reduce Istanbul to 15% cultural defense using 3 Destroyers and a Frigate.
A Cannon attacks to soften things up a bit.

Grenadier attacks at 97% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 87% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 95% and kills a Cannon.
Grenadier attacks at 78% and dies to a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 99% and kills a Cannon.
Grenadier attacks at 79% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 79% and kills a Rifle.
Grenadier attacks at 99.9% and kills the last Rifle, Istanbul is ours.

Start Culture.
Move the Galleons into Istanbul and unload them all.

Just reconned Konya and there are 6 Rifles, 4 Cannon and 4 Grenadiers there. Here comes a counter? Screenshot did not capture troop list, so no need to post it…

Upgrade a Galleon to a Transport in Old Sarai.

Take a deep breath and hold it, then press enter

IBT
Mehmed counterattacks.
4 Cannons attack and he kills our Machine Gun and loses one Cannon while we lose a Grenadier.
Additionally, we lose three Grenadiers and a Cannon while he loses a 2 Grenadiers and a Rifle.

Nidaros Grenadier => Oxford University.
Copper Mountian Drydock => Destroyer.
Mehmed gets a Great General and so do we, in Nidaros.

Turn 362 – 1676 AD

A difficult decision. Mehmed has three Cannon and, while weak, they can still cause us damage before his assault.

Decide to try a Cannon and see what damage we do. That stunk as we hurt his full strength Grenadier unit but nothing else?

Load a Machine Gun on a Transport in Old Sarai and send it directly to Istanbul.
Load a Cannon and 3 Grenadiers onto a Transport at Verlamion.

Sink an Ottoman Frigate near Konya.

Here we go again:

IBT
Mehmed counters again but loses 2 Grenadiers and a Rifle with no loss to us.
New Sarai Grenadier => Grenadier.
Karakorum Cannon => Cannon.
Birka Cannon -> Cannon.
Gandhi gets a Great Scientist while Mehmed gets a Great Artist.

Turn 363 – 1679 AD
We’ve got problems, Mehmed now has Artillery and has upgraded his Cannons near Istanbul? YIKES!!

Our Defenses:

Decide to stop, save and consult team.

Should we fight on or evacuate Istanbul?

The nearest reinforcements are 3 turns away. Three Grenadiers and a Cannon from Verlamion and a Transport with a Machine Gun from Old Sarai.

 

[Bede]

Run a destroyer down the coast and see what Mehmed has in reserve, then if he seems fully committed at Istanbul, sting the assault force with the remaining cannon then hit them with the grenadiers. The attackers are pretty weak now and you should be able to break his back.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I don't think that the cannon will effect any unit other than the rifleman, so I'm not enthusuastic about Bede's tactic.

I certainly do agree that more information about M's reserves would be extremely useful. Sometimes it is better to live to fight another day, but it's unclear whether that is true here. What else can you tell us?

Some thoughts:

If M has no more artillery than is visible, then once they are eliminated, you can upgrade to a machine gun or two and be in good shape to hold the city.

You have several units that might get a promotion if they win a close battle. With a promotion (perhaps a city defender or red cross one) comes 50% healing, which together should make the unit quite useful on defense. So don't use those units until they have a reasonable chance (but not a high probability) for victory. If you decide to attack, use (sacrifice) the two 12/17 units initially.

Attacking first will prevent further collateral damage. It is not clear if you have any fortification bonuses built up. If not, then certainly attack seems better than defense (retreat is another matter), as it would allow you to eliminate the artillery before it weakens us further.

If M does not have reinforcements available, then he may well reteat, and we will have to deal with those healed units later if we don't take them out now.

Have you kept galleons nearby to facilitate a retreat or have you sent them to meet our reinforcements and speed them on their way and to pick up more at Verlamion and chain-transport them to Istanbul should we be able to hold it?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Forgot to mention that we are in desperate need of a healing (red cross) promoted unit.

 

[leif erikson]

I certainly do agree that more information about M's reserves would be extremely useful. Sometimes it is better to live to fight another day, but it's unclear whether that is true here. What else can you tell us?

There is a Destroyer available to run south to check for additional units. My sense is that we won't find much as nothing has moved into or out of Konya since the initial move. He has three Rifles in Konya and one is guarding a resource nearby.

The Destroyer on a recon and unless significant forces are found, we duke it out.

You have several units that might get a promotion if they win a close battle. With a promotion (perhaps a city defender one) comes 50% healing, which together should make the unit quite useful on defense. So don't use those units until they have a reasonable chance (but not a high probability) for victory. If you decide to attack, use (sacrifice) the two 12/17 units initially.

This is what saved us last turn. One Grenadier was promotable and he promoted to City Defense. Two units died trying to take him out. I found it rather interesting to read his list of skills and have all offensive promotions except the one for city defense.

Attacking first will prevent further collateral damage. It is not clear if you have any fortification bonuses built up. If not, then certainly attack seems better than defense (retreat is another matter), as it would allow you to eliminate the artillery before it weakens us further.

I am in the third turn so there are is much of a fortification bonus, 5% at best.
This is the question for me. To risk losing a significant portion of the Army to eliminate those Artillery versus the wisdom of living to fight another day?

Have you kept galleons nearby to facilitate a retreat or have you sent them to meet our reinforcements and speed them on their way and to pick up more at Verlamion and chain-transport them to Istanbul should we be able to hold it?

Yes, the Galleons that landed the force are adjacent to Istanbul. Reinforcements are coming via Transports from Old Sarai via Verlamion. To get a ship chain set up would require more turns than I had and the use of all the Destroyers in the area. I was trying to bombard Konya to make the AI defend there. Not sure how it worked out but he is keeping enough Rifles there to allow us to survive.

EDIT - Forgot to mention that it was our two Red Cross promoted units that ended up as fodder. I didn't use them in the attack so they were full strength and defended when he attacked.

By the way, Machine Guns don't stand up to bombard units very well...

As the decision is important, here is the save where we are now:

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I found it rather interesting to read his list of skills and have all offensive promotions except the one for city defense."

Indeed, and for us the best defense may be offense, at least against cities. So, even if you hold Istanbul and fear M's artillery, it may still be best to go after another coastal city ASAP -- that is, after a little healing.

My experience is that by using a naval unit to bombard a city, it causes the AI to keep, or even move, land units (however illogical that may be) to protect the city, so I suggest adding bombardment (and leaving the bombarder anchored in the harbor) to your scouting mission.

"This is the question for me. To risk losing a significant portion of the Army to eliminate those Artillery versus the wisdom of living to fight another day?"

Absolutely . . . that is the question, and even if you choose to attack this turn (which I would favor if you are resaonably sure that M can't wipe out most of our forces in Istanbul the very next turn) it may be a question you will face again next turn, should heavy reinforcements show up outside the city. Should that happen, you may be able to load all units aboard ship, let M re-take the city, and then soon utilize your amphibious city raiders to re-re-take it.

BTW, if you defend without attacking, I think at least some of the artillery will heal before hitting us again, and that would not be good.

The choice is whether to attack or abandon. Defending seems a bad third option.

I will check in during the morning to get reports from the battlefield.

 

[leif erikson]

Absolutely . . . that is the question, and even if you choose to attack this turn (which I would favor if you are resaonably sure that M can't wipe out most of our forces in Istanbul the very next turn) it may be a question you will face again next turn, should heavy reinforcements show up outside the city. Should that happen, you may be able to load all units aboard ship, let M re-take the city, and then soon utilize your amphibious city raiders to re-re-take it.

The units in Istanbul are our cream of the crop, the units we hope to upgrade to Infantry to attack Hannibal with. To lose them will be a significant loss. That is why I decided to stop and ask the team.

I will check in during the morning to get reports from the battlefield.

Sorry, got to work today. No reports until this evening...

 

[leif erikson]

Dispatch from the Istanbul area.

The recon report of Ankara showed 3 Rifles located there, so we decided to fight.

We have destroyed the Artillery stack near Istanbul at the loss of 3 Grenadiers.

The log of the action:
Consulted with Team. Reload game and relook the situation.
Send a Destroyer down to visit Ankara, finds 3 Rifles and no Seige units.
This is good news and makes me want to try and hold on in Istanbul.
The Destroyer bombards Ankara.
Konya is bombarded by a Destroyer.
Checking out the odds, no matter which attacker we choose, the odds are 20% or less, so we’ll lose the first Grenadier as we will face the 14/18 Artillery, not the Rifle. Our 12/17 Grenadiers have Pinch, so I want to save them for the Rifle. OK, let’s try an attack and see if it gets us anywhere?
A 9.1/12 Grenadier attacks a 14/18 Artillery at 20% Combat Odds and we die leaving the Artillery at 7.9/18.
A 7.2/12 Grenadier attacks a 14/14 Rifle at 32.7% Combat Odds and dies, bringing the Rifle to 7.8/14.
A 8.2/12 Grenadier attacks a 7.9/18 Artillery at 71.4% Combat Odds and dies, Artillery now at 1.4/18.
A 7.9/12 Grenadier attacks a 7.8/14 Rifle at 95.1% Combat Odds and kills him without loss.
A 7.8/12 Grenadier attacks a 2.9/18 Artillery at 99+% Combat Odds and kills him without loss.
A 6.1/12 Grenadier attacks a 2.9/18 Artillery at 97.8% Combat Odds and kills him, now 3.8/12.
I really don’t want to leave a wounded Grenadier out of the city to a counterattack, so I decide to use the remaining Cannon, which I can easily replace, to make the attack.
A 4.8/12 Cannon attacks a 1.4/18 Artillery at 90.4% Combat Odds and kills him without loss. Now he is a sitting duck if Mehmed decides to attack him.

We should be fine unless something shows up from Bursa.
Continuing with the game after cleaning up my soiled britches...

 

[leif erikson]

Another counterattack and a new Artillery unit shows up. We have four Grenadiers left in Istanbul. Sign a Cease Fire agreement with Mehmed to try for some reinforcement and healing time.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry to keep coming back and asking.

I'm at the start of the fifth turn. During the last inter-turn, Mehmed agreed to become Hannibal's Vassal. Even worse, Hannibal declared war on Gandhi. If he gets onto Gandhi's territory with Infantry and Artillery, I don't think it will be pretty.

Hannibal does not have Combustion, so we still have the Naval advantage. The only counter I can see is to try to protect Gandhi by sinking all Carthaginian or Ottoman Vessels before they can reach Gandhi's shores.

I think this means giving up Istanbul and preparing to hold our area north of Izzy and our own borders, taking the Carthaginian City near Old Sarai. We'll then need to hang on until we have Artillery and Infantry, which is going to take some time.

EDIT - Add the log entries to this point:
IBT
Mehmed counterattacks again. An Artillery unit shows but doesn’t attack. We lose a Grenadier to an Ottoman Grenadier and he loses a Rifle to one of our Grenadiers.
The Grenadier Mehmed attacked with was not injured in the combat.
Uppsala Drydock => Destroyer.
Turfan Bank => Machine Gun.

Turn 364 – 1682 AD
Mehmed will talk. He wants capitulation by us for peace, I don’t think so!
I decide to sign a Cease Fire agreement with him to give our units a chance to heal and provide time for reinforcement.

IBT
Mehmed’s units disappear from the area around Istanbul.
Beshbalik Harbor => Bank.
Ning-hsia Destroyer => Destroyer.
Now we have more problems.
Mehmed has become a Vassal of Hannibal and Hannibal has declared on Gandhi.

Turn 365 – 1685 AD
Decide to save game and post for further team discussion. This is getting complicated.


I've saved the game and attached that save below:

 

[Bede]

Looks like the best option is setting up a picket line around India with the destroyer fleet and see what develops. If Hannibal has any boats in the strait then sink them first and ask questions later. If none appear reinforce the troops at Istanbul and go from there. It is unlikely Mehmed will send any ships on an end around from Bursa towards Bangalore, but it is possible, so keeping an eye on those northern waters is important.

Duen right it is getting complicated.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry, I just don't have time to look at the save, but I do have a couple of quick thoughts:

Why give up Istanbul so easily? Could we not use the GA to make it a viable city? Can't we at least wait until it comes out of anarchy or we have to fight.

If we plan on defending Gandhi by going to war against the alliance, then a renewed attack on the remaining Ottoman cities at that time might deflect some forces away from India (and, if successful, even add some gold to our treasury for upgrading and research). I guess the question is whether M will have such a tactical advantage that he will end up the attacker and re-take Istanbul. How likely is that?

What sort of naval units disappeared? What do you know about M's navy? How about building a caravel(s) for scouting?

If we hold on in Ottoman territory, it will require that we maintain a fleet in several oceans. To know how feasible that is, we need intelligence on H's navy, let's try and get some while peace prevails.

As an intercontinental attacker, H will have to build troop carriers and their escorts (not to mention land units), while we will only need frigates and destroyers (and we have more productive cities). This might turn out to be a means of weakening H by sinking infantry- and artillery-filled ships until he becomes an isolationist and we can then catch up in military tech.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks like the best option is setting up a picket line around India with the destroyer fleet and see what develops. If Hannibal has any boats in the strait then sink them first and ask questions later

Yes, and if they like to talk they can talk with The German Coastguard - or maybe they prefer the fish?

Had a look at the save. First thing I notice is that we can decrease the culture slider to 10% and increase the science slider to 50% to get Democracy in one turn. When we do the revolt I think we should seriously consider doing a multiple civic revolt to save time. One possibility is to revolt to Police State, Emancipation and Nationhood. The last one is with the idea of using drafting heavily in Bibracte when the Globe is done (Can be whipped now). Since there can be no unhappyness in the city with the Globe Theatre we can in principle draft rifles and infantry as fast as the city can regrow the pop and that is in about 2 turns if it's allowed to use all food resources including the fish that is shared with Isca (Probably even less if we draft 3 at a time and then wait for the 3 pop to regrow thus making use of the Granary). In comparison our Heroic Epic city needs 4.5 turns to produce infantry! Nationhood would also allow us to draft defenders in Istanbul - if we decide not to keep it we could simply draft every single citizen and then leave the city. An alternative to Nationhood is Vassalage or we could stay in Bureaucracy. I predict a long, tough war so I think we might as well adopt Police State immediately thus saving some turns of anarchy and getting the 25% military unit production bonus sooner.

We have a Great General and I think he should build a Military Academy in Old Sarai. We have a drydock and a military instructor there so maybe we should reserve this city for building 6XP ships?

I agree with the others that we need some scouting of Hannibals cities in the immediate future. Maybe move some of our destroyers up near Kolhapur so that we are ready to sink any Carthaginian ships that come by. Would be nice though to postpone war declaration until we have reinforced Istanbul with machine guns and rifles or infantry and are ready to continue our Ottoman offensive.

In a slightly longer perspective we should think about pillaging Hannibals uranium to prevent him from building battleships and destroyers. Unfortunately he seems to have uranium in 3 places: SW of Thaenae, NW of Kerkouane and S2E of Sicca. And another odd looking mine is 2SE of Hippo.

We shouldn't forget about trying to persuade Washington to adopt free religion. It's not possible right now, but the chance could come back. It would be nice to break up the Confucian block this way.

 

[leif erikson]

Thank you for the quick replies. Good discussion and some interesting ideas.

@Frederiksberg - German Coast Guard!!!

First, let's take up Istanbul. I'm not sure what will happen when it comes out of resistance and how much cultural space we'll gain. I suspect we're not going to get much as both Bursa and Konya are only 3 tiles away and are mature cities. I am not opposed to making a stand in Istanbul, as we have lost a number of units trying to keep it thus far. The question is how much of a bleeding ulcer will it become. It is easily attacked because it is two moves from two cities. A determined Artillery attack will eliminate the garrison and, even if we survive that, it may very easily culturally flip. Our troops are quite strong in offense but not designed to be defenders. My thoughts for reinforcements was actually to by pass Istanbul and attack Konya from the sea, which we can still do. I also like the idea of Nationhood and drafting units in Istanbul for its defense, freeing our best troops for attacks elsewhere.

Meanwhile, I think we have to be concerned with getting a force built up which can, at first, resist Hannibal and eventually defeat him. For starters, I agree that we need to get a fleet of Destroyers headed for Carthage and develop raiding parties that can disconnect resources.

We also need to get rid of the Carthaginian city on our continent before Artillery shows up there.

I think we should keep it peaceful for the time being and focus on getting Destroyers around Hannibal's cities, checking things out. This will also give us time to evaluate how things may turn out at Istanbul. War only it we feel there is an imminent danger to Gandhi, which may be in the city near Ning-hsia?

I like Frederiksberg proposal for Police State, Nationhood and Emancipation, Don't know how many turns we'll be in transition though. Too bad we don't have Communism so we can go with State Property as well.

We're at -3 with Izzy, would be nice to find a way to improve that. We're at +6 with Washington but he is at +10 with Hannibal. It would be nice to get them fighting? As Fredericksberg said, it would be nice to get Washington on Free Religion...

Got to go to work again. I'll be thinking about this and check back to see what else you might be thinking...