SGOTM 04 - Xteam

leif erikson · Jun 8, 2007

Frederiksberg said:
Got an idea. Maybe we should revolt to Universal Suffrage when Biology is discovered. Then we could cash rush The Elevator and the Three Gorges and move our military away from these cities sooner.

Once we get Biology, I think this would be another way to move things along.
Good idea!! :goodjob:

Bede said:
it is getting Gandhi out of his hole that is the big problem. Short of removing every trooper from the home island I don't know what to do. I don't know why he chose to send his boats to Hannibaland. He had to know he would face more than just a couple of longbows over there.

I know. We give him a path of least resistance and he goes to where there is more resistance! :crazyeye:

Bede said:
I had deliberately pulled the destroyers back into our waters and had left a single on guard at the southernmost town - Delhi I think it was, and let his task group sail right past. I wanted to see where they would go.

A thought just occurred to me. :cringe:

There is a city to the north of Delhi on his western coast. Every time I've gone near it I have seen most of his shipping located there. What if we blockade that one city. Would he be smart enough to build his shipping across from Uppsala?

The other possibility may be having enough Destroyers near Delhi to completely block his movement anywhere except our original core. We must have enough to do this as he is only using Galleons that move 4 tiles per turn?

rrau · Jun 10, 2007

Hopefully Upsalla falls next turn!!!!

1865ad (0) MM Haithabu for 3 Gorges in 16 instead of 21.

1866ad (1) Ghandi has 2 frigates and 2 galleons N of Kholapur and looks like he's heading east. I will not attack this turn and just follow him to see where he's going. He's changing all his cottages to farms around Madras

1867ad (2) Ghandi sank a fishing boat with a galleon, so I killed one of the destroyers. Ghandi's making cannons......He doesn't even have steel yet. Find our fleet and wake them up to send on offshore patrols. May I suggest to leave one unit awake when you put a whole stack of them together? The Military Advisor doesn't let you go click on them from the advisor screen to wake them up in this version and Alt-F wakes up them all, not just the ones you want.

1868ad (3) Continue to look around. Washington has oil hooked up.

1869ad (4) Lose a spy trying to sabotage Washington's oil.

1870ad (5) Start a replacement spy towards American territory

1871ad (6) We've learned Biology. I've slowed down research for cash and chose Fission as the next tech for us to learn. Start Revolution towards Universal Sufferage (3 turns)

1872ad (7) Anarchy

1873ad (8) Anarchy

1874ad (9) Anarchy is over. Found a second American city making thrusters.

1875ad (10) We don't have enough this turn to sabotage the thrusters that are closest to being done, but will next turn.

1876ad (11) Our spy in Atlanta was caught and we MIGHT be able to afford another try before this thruster completes. Same turn, another spy successfully sabotaged W's aluminium.

1877ad (12) Ghandi took a worker bait

. I order more workers into the area to lead him forth to Copper Mountain.

1878ad (13) It didn't work. They ran back to Ghandi's territory.

1879ad (14) Our spy successfully sabotaged the thrusters in Atlanta. Worker bait accepted again. This time I have 2 more workers to try to tempt them. And I've sent a worker to lay railroads in the gems by Hittie for Ghandi.

1880ad (15) Two worker sacrifices accepted. I've noticed the stupid AI is cycling between farms and cottages in Madras. Not getting the benefit of either one cause just as soon as one is finished, it switches it.

1881ad (16) Our spy successfully sabotaged the thrusters in Philadelphia. No workers accepted, but one of G's rifles moved to a square by 2 more workers. *crosses fingers and toes*

1882ad (17) No joy, but the rifle might be moving towards Upsalla. I keep my fingers and toes crossed. We completed 3 gorges dam. Gandhi is now making artillary. Our spy sabotages W's aluminum mine.

1883ad (18) Our spy was caught in Atlanta. Send replacement. The Rifle from India is cautiously exploring.

1884ad (19) We completed Space Elevator. It looks like the rifles's heading towards Upsalla. Try to tempt him with 2 workers on one tile right next to Upsalla.

1885ad (20) I moved the 2 workers into Upsalla as G's rifle went to an unoccupied tile next to Upsalla. We have a great merchant.

Throughout the first 15 turns or so, I picked off several of G's ships he tried to send west. I haven't seen any in the past few turns, though.

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Jun 10, 2007

Nice work rrau!! :hatsoff:

Sound like you had a bit of bad RNG with those Spy captures, but worked through it nicely. And even a Rifle near Uppsala!! :goodjob:

Roster:
Sanabas - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Leif
Gator
Bede
RRAU - just played! :thumbsup:

Try to look at the save later. Got a little project this morning to do.

Both Three Gorges Dam and Space Elevator are complete! Sounds like it is nearly time to evacuate the northern area and see if G will grab any of it.

We'll need to produce about 50 workers to use as bait! :rolleyes:

Frederiksberg · Jun 10, 2007

Let's hope Gandhi will finally take one of our cities.

I can play Wednesday. How long do we wait for Sanabas? We haven't heard from him in 3 months.

Cactus Pete · Jun 10, 2007

Reducing G's troop load is tempting. Bede, can you fill us in any more on this cap the AI has on building troops? I note that there is artillery being trained in Madras right now. What is being built in G's other cities?

Since culture is what I understand least, and I don't understand G's behavior, I'm suspicious that culture is preventing G from taking our cities. Moreover, the ones he's not taking are almost within the cultural borders of Nidaros. Regardless of whether G takes Upsalla, let's get our capital moved ASAP. Once we move the capital, if G still refuses our offerings, let's gift Nidaros to H and see if the resulting diminished culture in the area doesn't free G up. [Does anyone understand why we can gift every one of our cities to H (except, of course, our capital)?]

Might as well gift clams to W to improve relations.

We will not maintain our present marked tactical superiority over Spain indefinitely at our low research rate. Moreover, if we want her and her vassals to eventually trade with G, then we don't want them to progress rapidly (and further ahead of G) in their research. Shouldn't we be planning to weaken her and W -- if only by pillaging and perhaps razing -- fairly soon?

Bede · Jun 10, 2007

Somewhere in the code for AI behavior there is a limit on troop numbers. It is a "soft" cap because it takes the AI economy and state of war or peace into account. What it is exactly I don't know, all I do know is that it prevents the AI from training itself broke - unlike the C3C behavior where a threatened AI would train itself into bankruptcy.

And what is holding back Gandhi from waltzing into town is probably the relative strengths of his troops versus ours. The only reason I can think of that he sent those galleon loads to Punicland is that he could not see what was in the garrisons over there. But once the AI has built a stack of troops and tasked it with a mission, especaily an overseas mission, the only way to change its mind is to destroy the stack.

Frederiksberg · Jun 10, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
Regardless of whether G takes Upsalla, let's get our capital moved ASAP. Once we move the capital, if G still refuses our offerings, let's gift Nidaros to H and see if the resulting diminished culture in the area doesn't free G up. [Does anyone understand why we can gift every one of our cities to H (except, of course, our capital)?]

This could be worth a try. It will hurt our income quite a bit, but I suspect we have plenty of money anyway. Hannibal is willing to accept any city because he has so few cities.

Cactus Pete said:
Might as well gift clams to W to improve relations.

I'm more inclined to cancel all deals we have in order to slow down Izzy and W.

Cactus Pete said:
We will not maintain our present marked tactical superiority over Spain indefinitely at our low research rate. Moreover, if we want her and her vassals to eventually trade with G, then we don't want them to progress rapidly (and further ahead of G) in their research. Shouldn't we be planning to weaken her and W -- if only by pillaging and perhaps razing -- fairly soon?

I think so too. I would like to spend some money on upgrading infantry instead of using it for sabotage. If we reduce W to a couple of cities it will be very difficult for him to launch a spaceship anytime soon.

Bede said:
And what is holding back Gandhi from waltzing into town is probably the relative strengths of his troops versus ours. The only reason I can think of that he sent those galleon loads to Punicland is that he could not see what was in the garrisons over there. But once the AI has built a stack of troops and tasked it with a mission, especaily an overseas mission, the only way to change its mind is to destroy the stack.

Then maybe he will advance on Birka now that we are in a position to withdraw our forces from there. When we are done with Spain and America we could also consider disbanding some of our military

Cactus Pete · Jun 10, 2007

We have presented G with empty cities and he won't enter them, so the actual city garrison is not critical. If relative overall power is involved, why would the AI try to pillage before it would try to enter an empty city? Nonetheless, if getting rid of Nidaros doesn't work, I'm certainly willing to try disbanding units.

If G does start taking our cities, then the American cities would be nice ones to have in their place. For that reason, I'm cautious about razing them right now. If we do raze, we need to be careful, as we are within 2% of the domination limit and razing several of W's cities might cause some of our cities to expand a bit, plus there are a number of tiles spread alll over the map that are less than 55% in control of our neighbor, so they could flip to us.

"I'm more inclined to cancel all deals we have in order to slow down Izzy and W."

That's fine by me.

leif erikson · Jun 11, 2007

Updated Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Leif
Gator
Bede
RRAU
Sanabas

Good discussion.

I agree with moving the Palace immediately. Karakorum will require a 4 turn build.

I think we should wait a little bit longer to see if G will take some cities from us. If he takes a sufficient number, then I think we should take out W and prepare to put a hurt on Izzie. We have all the warfighting tech we're going to get, so we may as well spend on upgrades. Even if we go to Izzie's cities and destroy all her troops but one in each city, I hope she'll turn production to units and forget about Space Ship parts? :mischief:

The good news is that G is finally researching Rocketry. The bad news is some War Weariness is beginning to show in Madras. Has our Spy been to Delhi yet to see what is going on there?

Frederiksberg · Jun 12, 2007

I haven't had much time to check the save yet, but my general ideas for the turn set are:

1) Move palace and give away Nidaros to Hannibal.
2) Cash rush a few buildings in hammer poor cities.
3) Upgrade infantry to mechanized infantry.
4) Build modern armor and jails.
5) Prepare for an attack on W or Izzy - I need some input here!
6) Withdraw military from northern part of our home continent.
7) Continue the worker bait tactic in order to draw Gandhis forces towards our northern cities.

I suppose we will change civics to Police State at some point when the wars against Izzy and W get started so I would like to be done with the cash rushing by then. I would also like to avoid spending more money on sabotage right now in the anticipacition that we can deal with W by attacking him before he gets close to having built the space ship. Who do we attack next? When Gandhi hopefully gets Uppsala and Hannibal gets Nidaros we should be able to capture and keep a couple of American cities. On the other hand it would be nice to start the war against Spain while we have a technological advantage (modern armor).

I will play tomorrow evening CET.

leif erikson · Jun 12, 2007

Frederiksberg said:
1) Move palace and give away Nidaros to Hannibal.

I understand the reasons to give Nidaros to H. I wonder if we should see how things develop once the Palace is moved, which shouldn't take long. If G makes no move, then we should gift to H. If G does start to take cities, I'd rather see him get it.

Frederiksberg said:
I would also like to avoid spending more money on sabotage right now in the anticipacition that we can deal with W by attacking him before he gets close to having built the space ship.

I agree. I think W needs to disappear from this game once we attack! :hammer:

Frederiksberg said:
Who do we attack next? When Gandhi hopefully gets Uppsala and Hannibal gets Nidaros we should be able to capture and keep a couple of American cities. On the other hand it would be nice to start the war against Spain while we have a technological advantage (modern armor).

I think we still have some time for this. Neither Izzie nor W have Computers, never mind Robotics, so no Mech Inf. for a while yet.

Are we planning to raze her cities?

Cactus Pete · Jun 12, 2007

I still would like to know if G is building anything useful to the space race in any of his cities. My recollection is that I've only seen units and religious buildings.

How does ww work for vassals? In particular, if we attack Izzie, does our combined ww with her vassals go into effect? If we attack W, do we begin increasing ww with Izzie?

If we remove all our troops from the north, aren't we risking G's pillaging everything we've improved?

leif erikson · Jun 12, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
I still would like to know if G is building anything useful to the space race in any of his cities. My recollection is that I've only seen units and religious buildings.

He can't build anything yet as he is just now researching Rocketry. That means he has to complete Apollo before he can build Space Ship parts. :cringe:

Cactus Pete said:
How does ww work for vassals? In particular, if we attack Izzie, does our combined ww with her vassals go into effect? If we attack W, do we begin increasing ww with Izzie?

I believe the answer is yes. The War Weariness that has not gone away form our war with H will return. War Weariness is by Civ, so attacking W should not increase it with Izzie.

Cactus Pete said:
If we remove all our troops from the north, aren't we risking G's pillaging everything we've improved?

I am thinking of it a bit differently. If he does start to pillage, are we going to destroy his pillaging units? Don't think we can afford to have that happen for him. I don't know if a better answer exists? :rolleyes:

Cactus Pete · Jun 13, 2007

leif erikson said:
He can't build anything yet as he is just now researching Rocketry. That means he has to complete Apollo before he can build Space Ship parts.

I meant is he building universities, factories, and the like.

I believe the answer is yes. The War Weariness that has not gone away form our war with H will return. War Weariness is by Civ, so attacking W should not increase it with Izzie.

Not clear about this answer. W is an vassal of Spain along with H.

I am thinking of it a bit differently. If he does start to pillage, are we going to destroy his pillaging units? Don't think we can afford to have that happen for him. I don't know if a better answer exists?

The logic of getting rid of Nidaros is that its culture is thwarting G from taking our cities that the capital would put great cultural pressure on. I'm dubious that our advanced units are the reason for his reluctance, since he has tried to pillage in the face of them and has declined to attack weak ones. Thus, I don't see why, once Nidaros goes to H, we shouldn't initially leave our troops in place to reduce pillaging (don't attack G's forces, just create a corridor to our cities with them) and see if his behavior changes. If it doesn't, then we could remove our forces completely.

Cactus Pete · Jun 13, 2007

BTW, is anyone else experiencing the problem of now having to log on every time you post?

leif erikson · Jun 13, 2007

Forgot that W is a Vassal of Izzie. :crazyeye:

If we go to war with W, then we go to war with all three and the War Weariness from them all comes back. That'll be tough. :eek:

I understand your logic and giving Nidaros to H is worth a try. We had better do it before we get into it with Izzie, W and H! It may be a while before peace comes again?

I suppose we could always take it back from H and let G retake it from us if he is showing a desire to finally take our cities? I can't remember how much culture we get back on retaking the city?

leif erikson · Jun 13, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
BTW, is anyone else experiencing the problem of now having to log on every time you post?

Not me.

Did you delete some cookies from your system or run a program like Ad-Aware or a Spyware remover? They can erase the cookie that contains your login data. :hmm:

Frederiksberg · Jun 13, 2007

leif erikson said:
If we go to war with W, then we go to war with all three and the War Weariness from them all comes back. That'll be tough.

It's not that bad - we can always change to the Police State civic. Now that we have Mt. Rushmore all cities with jails should have no WW at all.

If Gandhi starts pillaging I will try to stop this allthough it may be of little effect since he is farming over towns and then rebuilding cottages on the farms :confused:

. And that's the "improved" AI :lol:

.

leif erikson · Jun 13, 2007

Frederiksberg said:
It's not that bad - we can always change to the Police State civic. Now that we have Mt. Rushmore all cities with jails should have no WW at all.

I hope you're right.

In a recent game, I had a similar situation, with Mt. Rushmore and Jails and in Police State, and all my cities still had 2 to 5 red faces depending on the city size. I ignored it, lost some pop, and finished my war. It was really nice when the war ended!

Frederiksberg said:
If Gandhi starts pillaging I will try to stop this allthough it may be of little effect since he is farming over towns and then rebuilding cottages on the farms . And that's the "improved" AI .

Good luck with this. The AI improvement seems to be pillage instead of take the enemy cities... :lol:

Cactus Pete · Jun 13, 2007

Two quick thoughts:

Once we go to war, we will not be able to gift city to H for about ten turns.

If we just pillage (I'm thinking Spain), especially with our airforce, it shouldn't increase ww and might result in Izzie sending troops into our territory where we could kill them off without incurring any more ww.

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