SGOTM 05 - Geezers

[drhirsch]

Stone and Gold in one city sounds fine, but I deliberatle avoided a blue dot like in the last map. The reason is: If it works both resources, it will not grow. But worked stones are better than a worked desert hill, so this might be useful for a temporary production increase.

How about wonders?

A pop 4 city could build the pyramids there in 34 turns (pyramids cost 600 at epic?), but it needs a obelisk (~8 turns) and a culture expansion (15 turns) more than a city directly besides the stone. OTOH a city besides the stones would have less production, additionally the gold comes online later, because we need a second city for it.

Hmm, thinking again about it, the blue dot in the last map doesn't seem so bad

Some ideas:

Settle blue. Send worker to farm rice, mine gold, build a obelisk while growing. After BW go for masonry, as soon as the border pops, work stones.

In the meantime build a second settler and a second worker in the main city (not sure about the order).

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Some ideas:

Settle blue. Send worker to farm rice, mine gold, build a obelisk while growing. After BW go for masonry, as soon as the border pops, work stones.

In the meantime build a second settler and a second worker in the main city (not sure about the order).

IIRC the worker can't farm the rice until until blue dot expands. However mining the gold and building roads will keep the worker busy anyway.

I'm not sure that we want to build another settler and worker in the capital immediately. It might be nice to let it grow a bit.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Actually, re-reading the above comments, I see no consensus as to what our next objective is.

Have we agreed where to deposit that first settler?

Perhaps it may be worth posting your views on what you should do for the next turnset. I've often found this tends to focus people's minds.

 

[drhirsch]

IIRC the worker can't farm the rice until until blue dot expands.

Ooops
This slows down the growth. One more reason to build a Obelisk there.

I'm not sure that we want to build another settler and worker in the capital immediately. It might be nice to let it grow a bit.

As long as it would be only working unimproved tiles after growing there would be only small returns. At size 2 it has a production+food overflow of 10 IIRC, it could build a settler in 15 turns. if you let it grow to work the unimproved bananas, it has 11 overflow and will build a settler in 14 turns. If the whip gets ready, things might look different though.

 

[Harbourboy]

Perhaps it may be worth posting your views on what you should do for the next turnset.

I lack whatever quality is required for being able to see into the future and plan turns ahead of time (like so many of you guys seem to be able to do). I will be playing tomorrow morning and will be following some vague general strategy accompanied by "whatever seems like a good idea at the time". Given that the settling of a city will take place during this turn, it would be in all our best interests if an agreement is reached on where exactly this should be, otherwise you will be stuck with a crappy city for the rest of the game.

 

[AgedOne]

My thoughts on settling

When the settler completes (in 5) we plant Beshbalik at site Blue.
The latest position of Blue - 1 tile E of gold - looks like a good choice to me.

(Maybe I'm getting paranoid about this, but I feel the barbs will settle on our land anywhere between turn 65 and turn 100. When they do, they'll take the best resource that we have left. If we placed Blue to cover the gold only, they will take the stone. This latest position covers both, and forces them to look elsewhere)

 

[AgedOne]

Some other stuff about the next 20 turns or so:

Research
We'll finish Mining in 7.
Next could be Pottery or Bronze Working.
Difficult choice. Pottery gets the cottages going sooner. Bronze allows the whip, and chopping.
We are likely to learn Fishing and Hunting from the barbs soon, as they are half-researched. That doesn't help the decision any, though.
I'd go for pottery, as I think our best hopes for victory lie with gaining a fast tech progress.
(On the other hand, if we fancy our chances taking out Alex with axes on galleys, perhaps Bronze is the way.)

Builds
Karakorum will complete the settler in 5.
I'd go for another worker, to follow the settler down and work the gold.

Beshbalik, when it's founded, would like a obelisk as it really needs a culture expansion, but we can't provide that until we have Mysticism. The barb's are not likely to give us that any time soon, so perhaps we should put it on the tech path. In the meantime, probably a warrior to act as MP.

 

[The-Hawk]

I've had another look and it seems as though we do need two city expansions. The pic below shows the initial city size as well as the first & second expansions.

Sorry Sam, I still see it as one. Can't we go into the tile to the South of the one you marked "Ocean"? See my addition to you pic:

 

[The-Hawk]

Sorry about the double post. I agree with next city being the new blue dot (east of gold). I also like Pottery over BW.

As far as next build, I would like to see the capital grow. However, if we are going to research pottery, I could agree with AgedOne's suggestion of another worker so we can actually build said cottages (and also mine the gold). If we are going to research BW next, then I would stick a chariot in there so the pop can grow.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Sorry Sam, I still see it as one. Can't we go into the tile to the South of the one you marked "Ocean"? See my addition to you pic:

I think you're probably right.. For some reason I got it into my mind that you could only go across at right angles to lines.

I suppose it does make rather more sense on Gyathaar's part to make the gap passable.

 

[markh]

I'm all for blue dot, pottery and a worker or even another settler. As we do not have to fear the barbs I would continue building workers and settlers. MPs can be built as soon as the happiness cap is about to be reached. Let's settle the most possible good spots on our island before the barbs do so.

EDIT : I have not checked how long it would take to research BW, but this would give our team mates axes and we could chop forrests to speed up settler builds. The more I think of this the more I like to do BW before Pottery. Depends a bit on the time necessary to research BW.

 

[drhirsch]

So far there is an agreement to settle the blue spot.

For the build order in the capital we have three suggestions, worker/settler, settler/worker and "let it grow".
As I wrote before, IMHO letting the capital grow doesn't really make sense until you have something useful to do with the additional pop. Consider that, please.

What should we build in the new city? A obelisk is required, but we lack the technology for it. A worker? Then we could do a settler in the capital. We need to watch our maintenance closely after we plant our third city. But AFAIK settling 3 additional cities besides the capital doesn't hurt your economy much at monarch level.

The Great Prohpet does see some large Pyramids in Beshbalisk, but this is far in the future. But we need some careful decisions now, to make this immense undertaking possible.

As I wrote before, research is somewhat accelerated, and the tier 1 techs might even come in without any researching at all.

We need 3 techs fast ATM: BW, Masonry and Mysicism.
Harbourboy, you could watch the tech rate in the F6 screen for techs we are NOT currently researching and try to estimate when it will come up (should have done this by myself). I would delay Masonry further in favour of BW, to give our brethen access to those nice sharp axes.

But my view is probably skewed, since I don't like the CE/Cottage Spam play style very much anymore. But I have to admit, a year ago I spammed cottages all over the world

 

[markh]

Pyramids and Oracle would be nice, although I would put more emphasis to the oracle for COL or even maths/construction for early cats. However I am not that sure we should start any wonder at all. The more I think of it the more I think BW is very important now. If we do not have any copper we have to go for IW or HBR. Imagine we have one copper resource on our island, but while we research something else the barbs have placed a city there. I do not know the mechanics, but do we get copper from the barbs automatically then ? Could we improve the tile for them or would we have to wait until they build a worker and hook up the copper ? Could we gift a worker ?
That being said I even would prefer to research BW next and build a settler to claim that spot if it pops up in the open somewhere immediately.

I would guess that some teams will not build any infra at all. This game is all about speed, so if we start building military too late we will have a harder time. I do not think we can afford to build wonders in our second city. Killing a first civ with just axes might be out of question then.

Usually I do not cottage capitols that much, but here I think we are that hammerless that we should turn this city into a commerce/science centre. I see this city getting whipped a lot. Our city at the blue dot will have to be our military provider.

BTW I opened the save once. All scores were 0 except ours. Is that normal or do I have to get in contact with the staff ?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I would guess that some teams will not build any infra at all. This game is all about speed, so if we start building military too late we will
Usually I do not cottage capitols that much, but here I think we are that hammerless that we should turn this city into a commerce/science centre. I see this city getting whipped a lot. Our city at the blue dot will have to be our military provider.

Whipping and cottages don't go that well. Farms might be better in the short term.

BTW I opened the save once. All scores were 0 except ours. Is that normal or do I have to get in contact with the staff ?

It's a glitch in the special game mod. Nothing to worry about.

 

[markh]

You can use cottages to regrow the cities, but basically you are right. If you just use farms you might grow your city back too fast in the 15 turns of whipping unhappyness. Then I like to use cottages to regrow the city. Depends on the city size of course.

 

[Harbourboy]

Got it. Playing now.



Karakorum finishes: Settler
Karakorum begins: Settler (15 turns)
Tech learned: Mining
Research begun: Bronze Working (25 Turns)
Tribal village results: a little gold
Beshbalik founded
Beshbalik begins: Worker (23 turns)
Tech learned: Hunting (From Barbarians)
Tech learned: Fishing (From Barbarians)
Karakorum finishes: Settler
Karakorum begins: Chariot (7 turns)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC1900_01.Civ4SavedGame

Turn 55, 2350 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 30 gold!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Beshbalik has been founded.

Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Saladin adopts Slavery!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: Qin Shi Huang adopts Slavery!

Turn 68, 1960 BC: Cyrus adopts Slavery!

 

[AgedOne]

Cool turnset, Harbourboy! Our little empire is on the roll. Two cities, a third on the way. Our first chariot soon to emerge, and we're 7 turns from finding out where the copper is.

(and didn't the Gt Prophet say that we were going to learn hunting and fishing from our friends very soon )

Also, I checked out the screenshot. Now that is a very CIV time to be finishing a turnset! 5:39am !! Excellent.



As I'm next up, I'll just say that I'm not going to be playing this evening, but probably tomorrow evening - so that's about 25 hours from now. That gives plenty of time for discussion.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Interesting to note that it looks like we could use galleys in both directions. Of course by the time various cities grow we would probably have Astro anyway. It still looks like going east may be quicker than west.

I see our allies have been mapping out Sally's lands. I also notice that the barbs have founded a city on lush island.

I can't believe that Cyrus has had a golden age already but that's what the GNP graph seems to imply.

EDIT: Interesting, and depressing that half the AI have already got BW.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Roster

Sam
drhirsch
Harbourboy - just played
AgedOne- UP
markh- on deck
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Btw the way should we start playing ten turns yet?

 

[AgedOne]

Btw the way should we start playing ten turns yet?

I'm sure I can do as much damage to our game in 10 as I can in 20

Seriously, though, I noticed that last time out the team played in 20-turn sets until turn 140. If we all have a turn at 20, that should take us to roughly the same place before we start the 10-turn sets.