SGOTM 05 - Geezers

Sam_Yeager · Sep 17, 2007

Looks like you had lots of action to keep you occupied Pariah.

I presume the idea of the LBs on the home island is to free up the existing units?

The first thought that occurs to me is whether we want to keep Yokohama? I would say no as it's too far from Corinth to be easily reinforced whilst being very near to Toku. I think we would do better to settle a new city to the SE of Corinth to serve as a forward base.

I think the attack force at Matsuyama may well need beefing up. I think I'll slip in a spear build at Corinth before starting the FP there.

Pariah · Sep 18, 2007

The LBs on Home Island are intended as an upgrade to our core defenses, in case we get unexpected landing parties of more advanced units! Perhaps Qin &/or Cyrus are building up an invasion force right now...

I should be inserting screenshots as well. Got so preoccupied taking notes that I forgot about pictures saying a thousand word...

markh · Sep 18, 2007

Nicely done, Pariah . :goodjob:

Your reports are nice to read. Keep it on. With pictures they will be even better.

I will have a look at the save later on.

Roster

Sam - UP
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne - on deck
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah - just played

markh · Sep 18, 2007

Had a look at the save. Looks good. I just miss a worker at Corinth. This and the FP there would be something I would like to see soon.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 18, 2007

Looking at the save a bit more the most noticeable aspect is the lack of military with which to attack the AI.

As I was one of those building infrastructure I can't complain about that too much. However we do need to do something about that. I'm in two minds as to whether to build the FP next in Corinth or more military instead. Thoughts?

I was thinking about moving up the spear from New Sarai to help in the attack at Matsuyama but I think I'll borrow an axe from Athens instead. Old Sarai will start working the mine again with the galley :whipped:

asap. There's really no point in Old Sarai growing beyond three pop unless it has a lighthouse. I'm also tempted to do some :whipped:

in most other cities when possible. This is going to hit research though.

Rather than sending troops by galley all the way I'm thinking of sending them via silver island and Athens which will minimise the time any one galley is available for interception although the troops will take somewhat longer to arrive.

I won't play until tomorrow evening which should give time for everyone to comment.

EDIT: Currently I intend to raze Yokohama unless there's any violent objections.

The-Hawk · Sep 18, 2007

Wow, I haven't looked at the save in a couple of turnsets. We've made some good progress, I think our economy is ready to go. Well done all. :goodjob:

The problem... we are behind "the curve" versus Asoka and Cyrus. They are bigger and teching faster. The longer we wait to move up the curve, the worse it gets. Our strategic position is pretty bad right now, I don't know if we can win. However, I do know our strategic position is not going to get better over time...

So... Time to knock heads... the whole point of beelining to maces was to build some and have at Togu. I would be building maces everywhere (with the exception of the odd galley to replace those that get sunk in transit). At this point, building infrastructure is counterproductive... it slows down our going to war, which means we will soon be needing to beeline to knights or cavs. Of course, by then, the AI's will have rifles.

I'd let all the current builds finish, then switch them all to maces next. The only exceptions: I would switch Beshbalik to a mace now... 12 turns for the LB is too long to wait. We can leave the LB in the queue, if an AI lands we can whip to finish it for homeland defense. He is a good insurance policy, but there is no need to finish him now. I would also switch Turfan to a mace. We have two galleys and a third being built. If we get lucky, maybe this is enough for the moment.

Sam, I would strongly vote to keep Yokohama (and any other cities we capture from Togu). Two reasons...

1) We need to get some military-building cities established on lush island asap, this is as good a place as any. As I said above, time's a wastin'. Our economy can easily handle a couple of more cities. It will effect our tech pace, but we aren't gonna keep up anyhow.

2) We really, really need peace with some of the AI's. Cyrus has knights, he can kick our butts off lush island if he ever gets serious. Worse case, maybe we offer Cyrus Yoko for peace.

I think our only prayer for a victory is to get Togu's cities before he gets too many sami's built. At that point, with a bunch of his cities spamming military, maybe we can handle the others via brute force. They will have tech advantage, but weaker units can beat more advanced... just need to bring more. In a recent gauntlet, I went wire to wire with Hwacha's (cats)... was beating AI LB's and maces with them. Just need to have lots, and a strong stomach for the carnage.

Last point... if we are gonna keep Togu cities, we will absolutely need FP on lush island. Might as well be sooner, rather than later. I would build it next, and chop the forests there to speed it up.

Pariah · Sep 19, 2007

I say keep Yokohama. We need to push further inland, and if we continue razing cities the AIs will just build new ones. And it will be better, as The-Hawk said, to have more cities turning out units in Lushland - instead of shipping them across from Athens of Home island, which is slow and dangerous.

I would have started the FP in Corinth if I didn't think it needed a lighthouse more.

We also need to fortify the homeland more. Karakorum is practicaly defenceless right now.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 19, 2007

My qualms against keeping Yokohama were based on the difficulty of defending it when it is so far away from Corinth rather than the cost. However since it looks as though I'm outvoted I'll keep it.

I'll also start building the FP in Corinth.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 20, 2007

Summary 1520 AD - 1550 AD
Toku is at war with Izzy. Matsuyama razed. Yokohama captured and reinforcements are due to arrive shortly. The transport route via silver island and Athens is working well.

Turn 310 - 1520 AD

The king was in a grumpy mood. His advisors were pointing out that little had been done to expand the kingdom since the demise of Alex the obnoxious. The fact that the king felt the same irritated him even more. Looking at the timetable for new troops the phrase 'give them a taste of the lash' sprung to mind. "I want those troops and the galley finished before our next meeting. Tell Turfan to start training a maceman." he told the advisors. The governors of Athens, Beshbalik, Corinth, New Sarai, Ning-hsia and Old Sarai are informed of the king's wish and take the necessary action to comply. :whipped:

An axeman from Athens embarks in the galley by Athens to reinforce the attack on Matsuyama. Some workers are found to be wasting their time chopping down the forests by New Sarai and told to desist.

IBT: Spies report that Cyrus has completed Notre Dame. Qin's caravel moves to the east of Karakorum. Asoka's HA moves towards Corinth.

Turn 311 - 1523 AD
Karakorum finishes the caravel and resumed training a keshik. The king orders his two caravels to link up. Beshbalik , Ning-hsia and New Sarai start training maces. Old Sarai starts a cat and Corinth starts building a FP. The attack force at Matsuyama is reinforced by the axeman.

IBT: Qin's caravel attacks the two caravels and goes to a watery grave with no loss to our brave forces.

Turn 312 - 1526 AD
Matsuyama falls and is razed for the loss of a cat. The workers on silver island are moved towards Athens. Asoka's HA moves to the forest by Corinth. The king decides to wait to see what the HA will do. A mace and a cat from Athens arrive in Corinth.

IBT: Asoka's HA pillages a village. :mad:

Turn 313 - 1529 AD
The newly arrived mace dispatches the impudent HA. Karakorums completes the keshik and starts training a LB. Yokohama is captured for the loss of two cats Regrettably it has no buildings at all.

The healed caravel from Athens is sent to explore the island to the east of the home island.

IBT:Toku makes a peace proposal.

Spoiler :

He is sent away with a flea in his ear. Coast watchers report a Qin caravel to the south of Corinth.

Turn 314 - 1532 AD
The troops in Yokohama heal whilst the transport of troops from the home isand continues. The king decides to chop the forest by Corinth. This will remove protection from further marauding enemies as well as helping the progress of the FP. No sign of Qin's caravel.

Turn 315 - 1535 AD
Troops continue healing in Yokohama. A keshik from Yokohama makes a brief sortie to see if the enemy is on his way.

Turn 316 - 1538 AD
Still no sign of a counter attack by Toku. Turfan grows to 7. As Turfan will have happiness problems growing that the king decides to focus on research to stop it growing. The research timescale for Guilds reduces by a turn.

Turn 317 - 1541 AD
Reinforcements start heading towards Yokohama.

Turn 318 - 1544 AD
Old Sarai starts training a mace. Yokohama comes out of revolt and the king is aghast at the cost of 14 :gold:

. A courthouse is ordered with instructions to :whipped:

as soon as possible. Confucianism spreads in Beshalik.

Reviewing the intelligence reports the king notices a fall in Izzy's culture. Further investigations reveal that Toku declared war in 1523 AD but the spy report was overlooked at the time. :blush:

Turn 319 - 1547 AD
Turfan starts training another mace. The king is shocked to learn that Athens doesn't have a barracks. One is promptly ordered.

Turn 320 - 1550 AD
Ning-hsia starts training a mace. A spy reports that Toku now has a new type of military unit.

Spoiler :

Spoiler Game autolog :

Spoiler SGOTM log :

Sam_Yeager · Sep 20, 2007

Roster

Sam - just played
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne - UP
markh - on deck
The-Hawk
Pariah

Btw Asoka can now reach our western coast by galley. :cry:

We may want to consider sending some troops over there to repulse him. Looks like the big bad is beating up Murky Waters (shiver).

markh · Sep 20, 2007

So we need some spears I guess.

Even more astonishing looks the score of One short straw. It is at 0, so it seems they gave up. I have to admit this game seems to be much more difficult than I thought.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 20, 2007

markh said:
Even more astonishing looks the score of One short straw. It is at 0, so it seems they gave up. I have to admit this game seems to be much more difficult than I thought.

That may be some sort of glitch with saves submitted more than once according to the maintenance thread.

AgedOne · Sep 20, 2007

Looks like we haven't quite given up the ghost yet, Sam-the-Lashman

Sorry if I seem to pop up only when it's my turn. Work has been making CIV prohibitive of late. Big project going live (then it didn't - but that's another tale

)
I will be OK to play a session - probably over the weekend - but maybe tomorrow evening.

The-Hawk · Sep 20, 2007

Even if I never play another SGOTM, I will forever read these threads just for Sam's writeups.

Looks like another good turnset. Togu's war with Izzy is huge. If he starts sending units her way, we can put a world class hurting on him. Maybe it will make Izzy our buddy too.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 21, 2007

The-Hawk said:
Togu's war with Izzy is huge. If he starts sending units her way, we can put a world class hurting on him. Maybe it will make Izzy our buddy too.

Given that I discovered the war because Izzy's culture curve had dropped, it looks pretty certain that Toku has already captured at least one of Izzy's cities so he must have had a reasonable amount of units over there. However the war has been going for about 9 turns now and I took Yokohama a turn or so into the war. It's possible that he may have been moving some units back by now. Equally I believe that AI in vanilla doesn't tend to war against each other for more than 30 turns, quite often less. Wars against non AI opponents work somewhat differently I believe. Despite having a plus for 'mutual struggle' Izzy is still annoyed with us.

All that said I agree that we should look at inflicting some more damage on Toku. Reinforcements, including cats, should arrive at Yokohama in three or four turns. It's probably worth scouting Kagoshima early on to see what defence he has there.

With Murky Waters' problems plain to see on the progress chart it just emphasises how crucial it is to get peace with Cyrus (and hopefully Asoka). If we can get Hinduism to spread to us, or capture a city with it, I think we should adopt it as our state religion to get some plus points.

The route via silver island and Athens works quite well and is quicker than the sea route so I think we should continue to use that route whilst we need to reinforce from the home island.

Looking at how things stand I have my doubts that we can do anything soon about Cyrus and Asoka. How do we see our likely targets? At the moment it looks like Toku and then Izzy. On our original plan we would then head for Cyrus and Asoka. Perhaps that may still be the case but I think we'll need quite a build up before we can take them on. That's assuming they give us the time to build up as we'll then be sharing a very long border with them. If we have peace then this is more feasible. Should we be considering taking out Sally before Izzy? Thoughts?

Sam_Yeager · Sep 21, 2007

Guilds should hopefully finish during AgedOne's turnset. What's our research path to be? I would suggest Drama (already part learnt) to combat WW, Gunpowder & Chemistry for grens.

AgedOne · Sep 22, 2007

OK guys. Looks like I'll be playing tomorrow morning (say about 14 hours from now).

I'll list the main menu as I see it here, and if anyone thinks of any side orders, or anything I've missed off, then drop them in.

Shepherd the reinforcements safely to Yokohama.
Whip the courthouse in Yokohama as soon as feasible.
When Guilds research completes, move into Drama. Start preparing knights.
Continue using the reinforcement route via Silver Island and Athens to the front line.
Whip new units whenever the citizens can stand it.
Target Toku's cities - probably Kagoshima first.
I'd be worried about moving against Sally and leaving our front line exposed, so continuing against Toku, followed probably by Izzy, seems the main strategy.
If we can get access to Hinduism, then adopt it and see whether this appeases Cyrus or Asoka enough to get peace.

The-Hawk · Sep 22, 2007

Sounds like a plan... no suggestions on my part.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 22, 2007

AgedOne said:
Whip new units whenever the citizens can stand it.

The existing whip unhappiness should wear off about half way through your turn.

AgedOne said:
I'd be worried about moving against Sally and leaving our front line exposed, so continuing against Toku, followed probably by Izzy, seems the main strategy.

My thoughts about Sally were a proposal about what we might do after Toku's demise. I certainly wasn't proposing a two front war.

AgedOne · Sep 23, 2007

Summary

Took Kagoshima and kept it.
FP completed - helping the economy no end.
Learned Guilds, but also Theology and Music.
Knights are in production - just one riding around though.
Troop movement via galley convoys continuing.
Saw off an annoying one of Qin's caravels.
Izzy couldn't sustain being at war with Toku. They're at peace again.

Detailed Report

Spoiler :

Official Save Game
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_AD1580_01.Civ4SavedGame

Session Turn Log

Spoiler :

SGOTM 05 - Geezers

Another Original Geezer

Outside Influence

Deity

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Old Original Geezer

Outside Influence

Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Emperor

Old Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Emperor

Old Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

Emperor

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