SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

Ronnie1 · Aug 5, 2007

I agree with Lehm and dV!

I am beginning my Bts install and patch/mod installs now. If all goes well, I'll be able to view a save in an hour or so.

hellwitch · Aug 5, 2007

dV if hange at 81 turn make you nervus make the 2nd chop.
My point is mostly that the forest is future asset of 0,5 healt and possible worked tile with +1 hammer!(the capital lacks of production). If we find Iron or Horse(i think very high chance as this is manipulated map and our UU is HA) if the FC then this forest will not be so good. And take care that if we hook the pig our capitol will have only 3 hammers(+1 will make a difference). One other thing if you notice The AI's exept Alex have been pillage very hard so i doubt that they will get the Henge before turn 100.
About city #2 1E have its advatages but i can't rememder if this is coastal spot?(as i mentioned i'm not at home this weekend)
And lehm we don't need granares because the WW will stop our cities at 2pop or at most at 3pop very soon. Idon't have statistic but the flow of dying barbs is very big (especialy in Delhi - hill +40%culture + promoted CG archer ...)

Ronnie1 · Aug 5, 2007

I'm up and running!!!!!!!!

WaHoo I say! WaHoooooooooo!

I'll have a more detailed opinion soon.

Ronnie1 · Aug 5, 2007

Qin is the only Industrious leader in the game, so he will be the one to watch the most regarding wonder production. It appears he does NOT have stone available at this time. Hw may be right about the Henge timetable. If the barbs are creating resource problems, the dates may get pushed back a bit.

@dV and all, When you were testing the Henge dates of T80, were you still at war with ALL of the AI's. That may make a difference as to what they get into their build ques. If they are defending against a steady stream of barbs, they will be less likely to begin wonder production.

From what we can see right now, no one has stone available, Alex we have no recon.

We will be able to watermill 3 river tiles in Karakorum with Machinery for a few more hammers. I believe we should push hard for Henge now, as that allows more flexibility with city placement.

I like the 1E of the gold site for city #2 as it is coastal (canal) and and gets us more dry land squares as Lehm said.

I have included a dot map for consideration

Yellow city #2
Red city #3
Blue City #4
White city and Green city are a maybe depending on what we find after more exploring.

da_Vinci · Aug 5, 2007

The other advantage to the double chop one whip is that if I save the 6 turns I expect to, that is six turns faster we found city #3 W of copper. Which is the faster we get to pyramids, and police state, which means we can keep the barbs unleashed even longer!

I am going to play now, until henge is done.

dV

Addendum: re the test games ... I was using your map, R1, and I think it was not raging barbs, as barb numbers capped at 15 in the test. All wars still on in at least for one of the turn 80/81 AI henge.

dV

da_Vinci · Aug 5, 2007

Ok, played to turn 80, save is uploaded.

The night sky is dark ... the full moon is behind a cloud now. The yellow-red flickering light of the massed torches suggest the outline of a large structure in the midst of the people of Karakorum. The moon begins to escape the shroud of the clouds, the scene gradualy brightens ... until the ring of impressive large stones is revealed: Stonehenge is complete!

Used the double chop, one whip to get henge at turn 76. On turn 67 our friendly barbarians revealed that Cyrus had stone hooked up, so I am glad we took no chances.

We learned fishing turn 71 from the free beakers.

Founded Beshbalik E of gold on turn 70. Started baracks to allow growth to pop 2. The hut was poped by the border for a free warrior.

There were five hammers overflow that I put into a settler in Karak. Then, since we were one away from back to pop 2, spent one turn (one hammer) on a warrior, then back to settler.

The two or so hammers into the warrior before we started henge all wore off in the 12 turns it took to get henge! :eek:

By contrast, the barracks hammers did not wear off in my tests when switched to worker. Maybe building hammers are more durable than unit hammers, or maybe it depends on how close to done you are? :confused:

As hw predicted, WW has arrived. 1 WW red face in Karak, none in Beshbalik.

At start of my turn, Cyrus, Toku, adn Alex would make peace, the rest would not.

Now, Alex offers peace straight up, all others offer peace if we give them Beshbalik. Some might take peace straight up, but I can't test that reversibly.

It might be that building workers and settlers and letting our barb friends pillage is the best short term plan. The have pretty much stripped every tile improvement, but are not taking cities ... in fact they are just promoting up the archers! :eek:

We might start making peace with whomever is willing, while they still are.

Our worker is one tile away from the gold tile. By the time he gets that mined and roaded, we should just about have the fat cross, so he can farm the rice. When that is done, if we don't yet have masonry (five turns if we research it right now), we could detour off IW for 3 or so turns to allow him to build the quarry. After barracks, I say worker in Beshbalik, then with gold, rice and stone worked, have it start making our galleys.

Fat Cross of Besh will pop another hut ... wonder what we will get?

In Karak, settler for copper city, then another worker I think. No sense growing too much pop until the gold adds happy there, and we get WW under control.

Note that we are the score leader at 1600 BC, clear culture leader, near top in power. (Edit: compared to other teams, no our AI opponents)

Upload log

Spoiler :

Autolog

Spoiler :

Thrallia · Aug 5, 2007

ah, so I'm up then

I guess I should download and load the save while I await your details.

addendum: we are thus far the only team to build Stonehenge, and Smurkz is the only team to have started that settled on turn 1. Finally, we have the most posts per turn played of any team except Murky Waters and XTeam...I doubt that Murky Waters is really posting 7 times per turn played in strategy. Its probably mainly BP and LC hamming it up

da_Vinci · Aug 5, 2007

Thrallia said:
ah, so I'm up then I guess I should download and load the save while I await your details.

addendum: we are thus far the only team to build Stonehenge, and Smurkz is the only team to have started that settled on turn 1. Finally, we have the most posts per turn played of any team except Murky Waters and XTeam...I doubt that Murky Waters is really posting 7 times per turn played in strategy. Its probably mainly BP and LC hamming it up

All those MW posts are the fog of war, aren't they?

Or if they come from Big Pig, maybe they are the Hog of war? :lol:

Geezers has built something later on as their culture curve rises up ... 800 BC or so. Late henge, or some other wonder? Can we tell by the slope which wonder it might be?

How do you know who founded on turn 1?

I did notice one odd thing ... I moved warrior in and out of Karak to see if "fear for our safety" was an issue. When I moved him out, a WW unhappy showed up ... when I put him back, it disappeared :confused:

I took screens (see below) because it was so odd. This last turn, moving him in or out did not add to the WW or give us a new fear for safety issue.

It may be that fear for safety is showing as WW, so it might be possible to remove one WW with a garrison in a city that has none ... just be aware of this potential bug in how fear for safety might be labeled now.

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 5, 2007

Nice going dV! :goodjob:

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting

Conquistador 63 - waiting

hellwitch - waiting :rolleyes:

da_Vinci - just played :goodjob:

Thrallia - UP NOW

g_storrow - on deck :scan:

Scout 214 - in the hole :cool:

Ronnie1 - waiting :mischief:

When I load the save, all scores show as "0", we are at the top of the list, but something seems to be wrong.

Also, Karakorum was not working the pig hill when it loaded, @Th, fix that when you start.

I think we need to consider getting to Writing after IW comes in. Our science rate seems very slow. It should pick up after the gold gets mined, but it says 31 turns to IW right now, that would be T111. And we need to stick Masonry in there if we want a legitmate shot at the Pyramids.

I think Thrallia should play until the settler is done in Karakorum. (about 16 turns)

da_Vinci · Aug 5, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
When I load the save, all scores show as "0", we are at the top of the list, but something seems to be wrong.

Also, Karakorum was not working the pig hill when it loaded, @Th, fix that when you start.

I think we need to consider getting to Writing after IW comes in. Our science rate seems very slow. It should pick up after the gold gets mined, but it says 31 turns to IW right now, that would be T111. And we need to stick Masonry in there if we want a legitmate shot at the Pyramids.

I was working pig and farm when I was playing ... I have found that the reload of a save sometimes changes the tiles worked.

If we are going to make peace with AI soon, maybe IW is less urgent. I think it is 10 to pottery now ... need a few cottages I think, even if we go SE overall.

Scores are 0 when I load, but seem to get the real numbers after I hit end turn the first time.

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 6, 2007

Scores are 0 when I load, but seem to get the real numbers after I hit end turn the first time.

I haven't had the opportunity to end turn yet so that may explain it.

If we are going to make peace with AI soon, maybe IW is less urgent. I think it is 10 to pottery now ... need a few cottages I think, even if we go SE overall.

I think we are better off heading straight to writing and getting some scientists into play.

Also, Karakorum was not working the pig hill when it loaded, @Th, fix that when you start.

I was working pig and farm when I was playing ... I have found that the reload of a save sometimes changes the tiles worked.

Click to expand...

I think we have had this discussion before. EVERYONE needs to be aware, and check tile use when loading up for your turnset. I know it's a pain in the butt, but we can't afford to be working unimproved tiles when there are so few in play.

Thrallia · Aug 6, 2007

Alright, so my plan is to finish the settler(at which point my turnset is done)

Along the way, I'll research Masonry, then go after Writing.

MM tiles worked.

da_Vinci said:
Geezers has built something later on as their culture curve rises up ... 800 BC or so. Late henge, or some other wonder? Can we tell by the slope which wonder it might be?

How do you know who founded on turn 1?

No way they built Stonehenge that late...and it should be possible to tell, Henge, Oracle, and Pyramids(most likely of the wonders) all give different culture/turn

As for who founded on turn 1....they were the only team that had 60 culture at turn 30 on the graph...everyone else varied between about 54 and 58. Since the only culture we get at first is the +2 from the palace, it means the lowest team wandered for about 3 turns(like we might have, had we moved NW or W) and the top team founded on the first turn, thus giving themselves the max culture

I've gotten good at reading those graphs...during SGOTM4, I correctly predicted CRC's overall strategic play nearly every time I checked.

Thrallia · Aug 6, 2007

their rate of culture growth averaged 3.8 culture/turn over 18/19 turns. I think they built the Oracle or Pyramids about 2/3 through that turnset. To be more precise...I think they built the Oracle on turn 125 or they built the Pyramids on turn 122.

da_Vinci · Aug 6, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I think we are better off heading straight to writing and getting some scientists into play.

I think pottery is on the way to writing, so I think we agree in part

The ultimate question is whether we are going to make peace soon. We might wait to hear from hw if he still has access, as to just how bad WW will get. We could just make workers and settlers for now, keep pops to 2, hook up gold, and let the barbs supress the AI development. Two more settlers is exactly the 31 turns it will take to get IW, then the swords go after the AI, and we do need to clear jungle for city 3#. The gold will be workable in 7 turns I think, just when pop is 2 in Besh. Three turns later we have the fat cross, just after we road the gold, and we farm the rice. Make a settler there, then the team roads back to Karak (unless the coast already connects us ... or do we need sailing for that?)

So all of this research will start coming faster soon ... I like the way the barbs have pillaged every developed tile the AI have access to. Since there are no free beakers to pottery, few AI have it, so I think we will soon be beating them to all key techs if we can sustain the barb wars.

We might make peace wiht Alex, as only one barb on his island (may not reduce WW any, however). On the other hand, he is the last one we can reach, so maybe stay at war with him longest?

Our island and the mainland must be enough for dom ... will that be faster than conquest?

dV

Conquistador 63 · Aug 6, 2007

Thrallia said:
Alright, so my plan is to finish the settler(at which point my turnset is done)

Along the way, I'll research Masonry, then go after Writing.

After reading latest posts, I'm confused about this statement. :confused:

Is this a consensus? I saw pottery/writing mentioned but after IW. And Masonry is being autoresearched, I don't think we'll need it before the settler is ready - in your turnset.

And I agree with peace with Alex or whomever asks for it. I looked at the 2 latest saves, and I was disappointed with the barbs luck. In the earlier one, I thought they had a chance to capture 1 or 2 AI cities (axe vs archer), but it clearly didn't happen. Maybe after swords start to spawn, that could change. When will those barb cities begin to appear?

Ronnie1 · Aug 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrallia
Alright, so my plan is to finish the settler(at which point my turnset is done)

Along the way, I'll research Masonry, then go after Writing.

After reading latest posts, I'm confused about this statement. Is this a consensus? I saw pottery/writing mentioned but after IW. And Masonry is being autoresearched, I don't think we'll need it before the settler is ready - in your turnset.

I'm with C63 here. I think we want IW now, I was just saying that we may need re-evaluate our post IW plans. The exception may be if the worker will be idle after farming the Rice, we may want to put the last couple turns into Masonry so he will have something to do.

Thrallia · Aug 6, 2007

sounds good...I'm taking it now, will play and post my turns after I eat dinner

I'll go IW first then, I didn't think we needed Masonry yet, but it sounded like we wanted to to it and get some commerce done before IW.

I'll go IW first then, since we seem to be planning on smaller cities for awhile.

Thrallia · Aug 6, 2007

Turns played...played 17, as I forgot to MM to the pig hill on the given turn :blush:

I also didn't have autolog turned on...I've turned it on and will use it for my next turnset.

We learned AH and Masonry for free, and are getting 2 beakers/turn into Meditation, Poly, and Pottery. 3 per turn into Priesthood :???: No idea why we are getting more for priesthood than then its prereqs.

Oh yeah, and we have Horses in Karak! :banana:

Barbs have founded a city, they are getting culture(got a free obelisk) and are building a barracks right now.
Lastly, the barbs seem to be hovering at around 35 troops, as the number varies each turn, but hasn't risen above the amounts from turn 4 and 5.

Turn 1: Switch to pig hill: settler in 16 turns.
Turn 4: Currently 10 archers, 13 warriors, 9 axes for the barbs
Turn 5: Currently 12 archers, 9 warriors, 10 axes for barbs
Barb's first city, Polynesian, founded(starts on Barracks first)
IBT: Nothing
Turn 11: Borders pop for Beshbalik, Barracks finish. Start worker, start farming rice(IW in 16 now that gold is being worked)
IBT: Nothing
Turn 12: Masonry learned for free
IBT: Nothing
Turn 14: AH for free. Horse 1S of Karak

IW in 11 turns.

Turn 17: Settler finished, production set toward worker

Spoiler Upload log :

Thrallia · Aug 7, 2007

in case we are still interested(doubtful from the look of the map layout though) Alan said everyone except the mac team is still allowed to attempt a diplo victory.

So if it begins to look like beelining to MM and rushing the UN would be a faster victory, we still have that option.

hellwitch · Aug 7, 2007

For the WW it will keep us at pop2, maybe with some mirco and the gold we can make the capitol on 3pop. IMO we must stay in war till the barb fill all the empty land with cities(maybe around 0AD). Also watch if some of the barbs town are in danger - this could force the peace with some of the AIs. The problem with making peace ASAP is that the AI will fill all free land in no time as most of the must have 1-2 settler already builded.
About the tech path IMO next it could be Writing>Math>Contruction as will get or almost get sailing on the way. And Pottery has 12 free breakers on the last save(1090 BC).
About the victory type - I doubt that we will play since MM. I think that fast grenadiers or Cavalery will make the final push on the big island and from there on few turn with big culture slider could make the domination fastest. The problem with domination is the economy whole - we must manage to survive with 20-30 distant to each other towns.
Wonders - i think GL is the only one we need.

SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

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