SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

Is there enough food to support those mines?

The copper is on grassland, so it feeds itself. The three hills are grass hills, so they get 1 food in addition to the hammers. Borrow two farms from Karak, as indicated on the map, and two of them are fed, so the last mine makes the food surplus +1 food ... until we can irrigation chain after CS.

So it seems to me that the answer is yes! I think all of our competing teams will be building that city for their troops!

What do you want more screenshots of? Ich bin dein Diener! (did I get it right this time, Lehm? )

dV

 

[Thrallia]

I think we build city 4a, 1N(unless that puts it on the square the bananas are on?)

Other than that, I prefer the eastern cities like you have them in the second picture, and the western as you have them.

That gives us the ability to have a couple production cities, and a number of cities we can run scientists in for our researching.

 

[Ronnie1]

I really need to get to a store and buy Bts! I tried once when it first came out, but it was sold out. I've just been so busy since then that I haven't had another opportunity. I'm probably going to buy a new computer for my business this weekend, I should be able to grab it at the same time, and be up and running by Sunday night. Everyone has been doing such a great job, I feel like I'm not holding up my end just yet.

 

[hellwitch]

I don't think we need the HE jungle city as it is not costal. The second dV dot map is very bad because it will leave us with 2 costal commerce cities and two not coastal production cities. The problem is that our HE must be coastal as we want to control the seas. The HE spot in dV map is over forest and thats 30 hammers(if used on the pyramids - 60h).
Sorry that i don't post the arguments for mine dot map. And here there are :

- the the cities we will get are costal with at least 2 prod. tiles. My HE city will be the blue as it will have copper, 2 hills and bananas to feed that hill mines. this 3rd city is the best location for the pyramids as it will have good production as it is settled and it have 3 forest for chop+stone combo on the wonder. I make new test and i found out that we can save the capital's forests for the oracle and can build the henge slow after the first settler. Later as the 2nd city is settled on the gold+claims+stone spot our first worker can make the quarry. Meanwhile the first settler build (and after the wheel) our worker can make the road to the stone. When the Henge is in proccess the capitol it can grow to size 4 again(1 settler will get 2pop wimp) and with stone hooked we can wimp again 2 pop on the henge as they will get 4 pop hammers. In this plan our research goes to wheel>Myst(we needed for the henge)>Masonary.

So here we will need a decision :
- to go for the pyramids in the 3rd city and the oracle in the capitol(we will still have the 3 forests)
- to go only for the Pyramids(we must decide where)
- to go only for the Oracle - it must be in the capitol (+4GPP for propet)
- for research the question will be IW>Med>Pr(Med &Pr will be cheeper at this point) or Med>Pr>IW(for faster oracle start) or in case we skip oracle IW>somthing else(sailing or Writing).
IMO the Henge is sure success, while the Pyramids and the oracle are possible fail especialy if we try them both.

 

[Lehm]

Ich bin dein Diener! (did I get it right this time, Lehm? )

dV

Perfect!

 

[Lehm]

Why should we build all those wonders. IMO we need units. We are going to conquer the wonders we need. I think there is a good chance of reaching the big continent by galleys through cultural bridges.

First target will be the island in the south. We need one galley and axes axes axes. Our tech goals should be:
- Catapults
- Courthouses
- Maceman

If we can´t reach the big continent with our galleys last tech will be astronomy. Then we should be able to set research to 0%.

If we build the pyramids anyway we could save the great engineers to build the forbidden palace very quick on the big continent

 

[hellwitch]

Well Lehm is right we dont need all these wonders. IMO the Henge will be good because of the culture and we will not want to build junk troops anyway(warriors and archers). So if now we go wheel>myst for the henge then IW> Sailing/ Writing > beline for cats . And the building que - 1st Settler>Henge>2nd settler. While in the second city boat>barrack>troops and in the 3rd barracks>troops.
The Henge will give us GPP too and if our first GP is propet Teology blub will be nice for our millitary(+2exp).

 

[da_Vinci]

I don't think we need the HE jungle city as it is not costal. The second dV dot map is very bad because it will leave us with 2 costal commerce cities and two not coastal production cities. The problem is that our HE must be coastal as we want to control the seas. The HE spot in dV map is over forest and thats 30 hammers(if used on the pyramids - 60h).

Do we want to spend the HE building ships, or land troops? If we are reaching the main continent by culture bridges, we just need a few ferries to cross the straits, and the other coastal cities can build those while we build the land units in HE. 4th mine in HE is 3 extra hammers per turn (vs. that mine not in HE city), so in 10 to 20 turns it makes up for the lost forest, then it is extra hammers.

Let me look at this more, see if we can get better coastal production with the 4 mine HE city.

@ R1 ... you don't need BTS to play this game, just download the 1.74 patch for vanilla, and the special mod!

dV

Addendum ... we are at turn 50. henge was build elsewhere by turn 80 in my tests. 9 turns to myst, 12 to masonry, 8 to wheel. That is 29 turns, so we can't hook up the stone before henge. That being the case, why not myst first? Sooner we get henge, sooner we get to work the gold tile. Which one gives us more free beakers now? If myst, then maybe wheel > myst works, but why take the risk?

We can't build hw's city #4 as it is too close to his city #2. Is canal that important? I think we can live without it. If we must have it, that limits our options for stone and gold.

I suggest that we build city#2 E of stone, for a stone -gold-food coastal city. Then build my 4 mine HE city. We can get our naval production in the west as shown in the shot below. Skip a city in the SE until we have courthouses, if at all.

Research myst first, and get a fast start on henge after we whip the settler.

I think we might stay at war for the next 20 turns until it is more clear where we want war and where we want peace.

If we agree on that, then perhaps we have consensus for hw to play tonight (what time zone are you in?). At the moment, too many issues appear undecided ... hw, can you play tomorrow if we need more time to discuss? If not, I can play over the weekend, and you and I could trade places this round if it is easier for you to play during the week.

dV

 

[hellwitch]

I need 15-17 turns for 1st settler then the Henge so Wheel>Myst is better as the worker wont be idle. Yes i will wimp the settler but i prefer to make it on time to get max overflow to the Henge. If we don't want risks one chop will make the Henge build 100% sure becase as the capitol go again up to pop4 we can wimp again and cut the last 6-7 turns. The capitol will grow for 8 turns from 2 to 3 pop and another 8 turns. So here is the math : 11-14 turns for the settler and around 16 turns for the Henge. Thats make ~30turns and we have ragging barbs now so the Henge will be successfuly build.

I am not in home this weekend and i prefer to play today.

 

[Conquistador 63]

After reading latest posts, I think I can agree with hw's plan for his turnset, which means settling E of stone and starting the path to SH (wheel/myst).
What it isn't clear to me is if we won't let city grow to 4 so we can whip settler for 2 pop - trying to max carryover hammers to SH. In this case, I haven't done the math but I think we'd need myst first. If this is hw's plan I would agree with it. The other questions on city 3,4, wonders or axes, etc. could wait until next turnset.

ADDENDUM:
Another idea which came to my mind now: if we settle city2 on the top of stone, would it connect by coast to capitol without road? It could speed SH, would still get clams and gold in fat cross, and work as cannal (no need for hw's city 4). If that is true, maybe skip wheel and go myst/masonry or masonry/myst.

 

[da_Vinci]

ADDENDUM:
Another idea which came to my mind now: if we settle city2 on the top of stone, would it connect by coast to capitol without road? It could speed SH, would still get clams and gold in fat cross, and work as cannal (no need for hw's city 4). If that is true, maybe skip wheel and go myst/masonry or masonry/myst.

Main question is where to put city 2. Problem with C63's latest idea is that we need the road on the stone square to connect it to anything, don't we? Coast might connect the tile to capital, but I think we need road on the stone to make the stone portable ... am I wrong?

Getting stone as a resource requires both masonry and road, and we need myst for henge. No way we can get all three in time.

So once we resign ourselves to that, then do we agree that E of stone to get stone, gold and clams together is best place for city 2?

I'm OK with wheel>myst as long as we speed henge as hw suggests. And Im fine with hw playing the 30 turns to get to henge ... might as well play from decision point to decision point early, rather than set turn numbers (within reason, of course. And I expect it might be more like 28 turns as barbs and free beakers should cut a couple of turns off the research times.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Maybe I didn't express myself well enough. Idea was to settle in the stone tile itself, so road wouldn't be necessary - or at least so I thought, but I might be wrong, haven't tested it.

 

[hellwitch]

IMO sailing open coastal connection if i undestand the description.

 

[Ronnie1]

ADDENDUM:
Another idea which came to my mind now: if we settle city2 on the top of stone, would it connect by coast to capitol without road? It could speed SH, would still get clams and gold in fat cross, and work as cannal (no need for hw's city 4). If that is true, maybe skip wheel and go myst/masonry or masonry/myst.

We still need Masonry/Sailing I believe to make settling on the stone work. But it is a good idea IMO. Both Sailing and Masonry should be pretty cheap techs soon.

@ R1 ... you don't need BTS to play this game, just download the 1.74 patch for vanilla, and the special mod!

I only have dial up on my game computer, 60MB is a huge download at that speed.

 

[da_Vinci]

Maybe I didn't express myself well enough. Idea was to settle in the stone tile itself, so road wouldn't be necessary - or at least so I thought, but I might be wrong, haven't tested it.

My bad ... somehow I interpreted "on top of the stone" as "above the stone" from a map perspective ... 1 N of stone.

City always has a road in it by default, and a railroad as soon as you learn that tech.

We still need Masonry/Sailing I believe to make settling on the stone work. But it is a good idea IMO. Both Sailing and Masonry should be pretty cheap techs soon.

I only have dial up on my game computer, 60MB is a huge download at that speed.

What am I missing about setting on the stone that makes it good? The only reason to settle on stone is to get it in time for 'henge. We can road to to it in time for 'mids if we choose to chase that later.

But we still need sailing, masonry, and myst to get stone in time for henge which is still too long to beat the AI time of turn 80. Are we setting there just for the canal? Do we want to give up a hammer of production (multiplied by the forge later) just to get the canal? I don't think that Cape Horn is far enough south to require a canal in Panama if we have to sacrifice other things for it.

@ R!: I feel you pain! I only have dial-up too, and bought BtS for the same reason ... that 60 MB download is too painful (unless you do it overnight).

dV

 

[hellwitch]

I've played 13 turns and submited.
I researched wheel > myst .Ive build the settler with a 2pop wimp and now we have 46h overflow for the henge.
I know that i had 20 turn to play but we didn't decide what to research after that why i stoped. I make the math and with second 2pop wimp we will have the henge in 16 turns(1 chop needed and working on pighill,bananas after pop3 owork a forest too). If you say i can continue or stop here.

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2500 BC to 2080 BC:


Turn 56, 2320 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Temujin adopts Slavery!
Turn 57, 2290 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

 

[Ronnie1]

Have we reached a consensus on where to build city#2?

I favor hw's city #4(light green) placement grabbing the clams/stone/dyes/2 hills.

 

[da_Vinci]

Have we reached a consensus on where to build city#2?

I favor hw's city #4(light green) placement grabbing the clams/stone/dyes/2 hills.

The central question is whether we like my suggestion of the non-coastal 4 mine city or not.

If we build hw's city# 4, then we don't concentrate 4 mines in one city, we spread them out. But also, we don't get the commerce (science) boost of the gold very soon. We do get the canal.

I think I favor building city #2 in a place that will get the gold. That is why I like the gold and stone option for city #2, the settle E of stone option. If we don't get the gold there, then where will we put the gold city? Early gold means faster research, and we arm the barbs better sooner.

I think the best plan is #2 east of stone, #3 east of copper for 4 mines, forget the canal, #4 for the culture bridge to West Island and three mines, and later #5 for three mines on West Island if we want the production. All cities are coastal except #3, which is the land troop center with 12 HPT and HE.

I can live with not founding my 4 mine E of copper city, but I have yet to hear a compelling reason not to found it.

dV

Addendum: hw can't proceed until we decide this ... hw, how much different is your time zone from US eastern time?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

City3 (or 4) could go W of copper, it would be coastal, get copper + 3 hills. It'd have banana, dyes, riverside grass to farm. Also is close to capital for low maintenance. How bad is this?
In fact as we won't get stone before SH is ready and we intend to go axe-rush (Lehm's suggestion), why don't we settle it first instead?
About tech: if the axe rush is supported by the team, we tech towards sailing now?

 

[hellwitch]

it's 11pm here (East European time)
Can i play till the henge is ready or not(16 turn more)?
Exept founding 2nd city nothing will happend in this 16 turns anyway.(And we need to decide where).
And for the second city i prefer E of the stone because we will get the gold sonner and this is important(research and +1 happy face)
And yea C63 is right that W of the copper get the 3 hills + bananas and it is a costal. We will get this 3rd city soon anyway.
So IMO: 2nd E of the stone the third W of the copper. And i think IW> beline for cats is the best way as we will get sailing for free till Construction is ready.
I dont think axe rush will be good because Medina is on hill and already has 40% cutrure diff. Saladin's second town looks like on hill too.
And one more thing - for these 13 turn so many barbs die that we will get the -1 for WW very soon.