SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

A word to the techs:

As one can see I went for Polytheism right after Maths, then Monotheism. We got Sailing for free.

So next after Monotheism will be construction and of course Theology from lightbulping it.

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

In turn 152 the following showed up:

Wealthiest civs of the world:

1. Temujin
2. Saladin
3. Isabella
4. Tokugawa
5. Cyrus
6. QSH
7. Asoka
8. Alex ( seems that he bought the mids :lol:

)

Not that this statistic is worth to be read but I thought I inform you about everything...

da_Vinci · Aug 14, 2007

Lehm said:
I deleted the scout for saving 1 gold per turn. Ning-shia will grow to size 2 next turn. The rice is farmed and the workers were supposed to mine the hill they are standing on now next to Ning-shia.

Are we still building the library there, or did we switch to barracks to use it as a troop city?

Lehm said:
Karakorum will grow to size 2 in 2 turns. As we have 6 and 4 , can we afford this growth? Or what does the calculation say about the number of unhappy faces after the growth?

I am not sure because actually I thought I could whip the library in Beshbalik. It was 5 and 4 at size two. After growth to size 3 it was 5 and 7 . Somehow I couldn´t whip anything but I don´t know why. So I set the 1 worked tile on gold hill to let starve 1 pop down to size 2 again.

Going to my generic formula of pop * (active WW*stuff)/200, if we assume a floor function, then pop 2 = 2 WW even if active WW*stuff/200 is equal to 1.49, as 1.49*2 = 2.98 = 2 with floor function.

But 1.49*3 = 4.47, which in a floor function is 4 WW. So adding one pop moves us to 2 additional WW, and 1 additional crowding unhappy.

Which confirms the floor function, and confirms that it is applied at the end.

Which means that growth to pop 3 before mids would have killed its chances, as hw said. :hatsoff:

I think the pop avail to whip is a function of the happy pop? C63 should know this for sure. Rather than starve out that pop, if we wait a turn or two can we whip it away? (not at game now).

Lehm said:
A cultural bridge city to Alex would cost a lot as it could only be placed on a really unhealthy tile on our island. I think it is better to attack Sal first as there is no need of another city. And later when we have conquered the big continent we will have troops there anyway and we will still have QSH left. Mh, but we will gain money from conquering. I think I don´t have an opinion on that cultural city bridge thing.

This depends entirely on how badly we want to capture mids. Also, how badly do we want iron?

At the low pops we are stuck with for now, all cities are small, to the east bridge city, which also gets iron, may be worth it.

dV

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

Yes, we are still building the library in Ning-shia and it still takes a time. I wouldn´t have built the library at all as I prefer barracks in all our cities first but now we should finish the library. Would be a waste of time and hammers when we cancel it.

I remember now that I whiped the Spearman in Turfan 1 turn before the growth to size 3. So the city wasn´t in trouble. So , religion and calender would give us more happy faces and allows bigger cities.

Conquistador 63 · Aug 14, 2007

da_Vinci said:
I think the pop avail to whip is a function of the happy pop? C63 should know this for sure. Rather than starve out that pop, if we wait a turn or two can we whip it away? (not at game now).

Well, from my experience, this has a simple answer: # of citizens we can whip is up to 50% of the total pop of the city, rounded down. e.g: pop1/whip0, pop2/whip1, pop3/whip1, pop4/whip2, pop5/whip2, etc.

I suppose I'm up. Tech is consensus, how about builds? I can play tonight if I get enough input by then. I have yet to look at save but in general I favor settling the east bridge, maybe even better if before bulbing Theo - would the most recent city be the holy city? If so, almost instant border pop.

da_Vinci · Aug 14, 2007

I favor the east bridge strategy ... need that city for the iron (lets get our bridge cities expanded before we cancel henge with calendar). Then we have specialized forces ... CR swords to atack cities, shock axe to defend the swords from melee, Combat I + medic spears to defend from horse. Mixed CR cats with barrage cats. That is how I tend to build early armies.

That east bridge city keeps our options open, we can go either way, or both ways at once if we wish.

I think if mids was good enough to chase, it is good enough to capture.

If Sal is lagging due to limted land, maybe we save him for last, or just get continental dom without attacking him?

After construction, does metal casting make sense? If we raze Alex on the linking island, rebuild elsewhere on that island gets us silver, doesn't it? Then forges could really boost our happiness.

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 14, 2007

As C63 already noted,

The roster order is

Lehm - just played
Conquistador 63 - UP NOW
hellwitch - on deck
da_Vinci - in the hole
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

I agree with the east bridge city plan. I do not think we take a chance on missing Theology by waiting though. We get Mono in 3t and should bulb Theology that turn. That gets us a Holy city and a missionary, raises happy cap in 2 cities. This is the only location that works, nes pas.

Sal will probably sail past to found another city NE. That has got to hurt his economy. Maybe we leave him alone, and go straight for Mids in Athens.

I like Metal Casting after Construction.

The Library in Ning-hsia will speed up with the mine, whip it when available, add Scientist when it grows.

After construction, does metal casting make sense? If we raze Alex on the linking island, rebuild elsewhere on that island gets us silver, doesn't it? Then forges could really boost our happiness.

I think we bypass everything for strike at Mids, then come back and clean up other cities.

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

So I guess building the settler in Karak would be the fastest way do get out another settler.

da_Vinci · Aug 14, 2007

I agree with R1 ... don't wait to bulb theo ... lets lock it in.

Any chance we want org religion for a while before theocracy?

If Ning-hsia is going to run scientists, then what cities are going to be hammer cities? Turfan, of course, but if not Ning-hsia, then Besh?

Maybe we want to settle the horse city on the west Island for more production at some point?

We could go straight to Athens (home of mids certainly), then clean up the near island for the silver.

dV

Conquistador 63 · Aug 14, 2007

Sure bulb Theo ASAP, I had no idea Mono was so close. I don't think OR is worth the trouble, as we're already in the troop build phase. I wouldn't have bothered with Lib in Ning either, but since it will be there...

How many galleys will we need? I assume 3 at least, grouped for carrying 6 ground troops. Maybe we should start building them? Are we attacking Alex before cats are available - maybe some pillaging in Saladin's land?

da_Vinci · Aug 14, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
Sure bulb Theo ASAP, I had no idea Mono was so close. I don't think OR is worth the trouble, as we're already in the troop build phase. I wouldn't have bothered with Lib in Ning either, but since it will be there...

How many galleys will we need? I assume 3 at least, grouped for carrying 6 ground troops. Maybe we should start building them? Are we attacking Alex before cats are available - maybe some pillaging in Saladin's land?

Maybe pillage Alex, to keep him weak for an easy kill?

Going for Saladin maybe just enough to get him to make peace?

dV

Thrallia · Aug 14, 2007

do we want peace with saladin right now? or would it prevent us from sailing across the coasts to get to Alex?

Ronnie1 · Aug 14, 2007

So I guess I should have been more clear before founding Ning-hsia as I am getting killed on the Library build. I was going under the assumption that we were targeting a SE economy, hence the Library. I still feel like we need a science boost from somewhere. If we can get it to run 2 scientists, it is the same as GL without the culture, and it doesn't expire.

I was thinking 4 galleys with 4 cats and 2 swords + 2 axes for Athens.

I am OK with peace with Sal, I'm just not sure where he will put the next city he is hauling on that galley. If he places it on our island, we may need to take it out right away.

hellwitch · Aug 15, 2007

If we want peace we must go for alfa anfter Construction. MC will not boost our week economy at all. We have enough production cities with mines for now. Strategically few AI in peace is greater benefit than +1

and 25%production for around 30 turns sooner. after alfa>literature because we could get GL as it we boost the science very much(+8breaker + 8GPP on scientists is a lot in this game). After Literature we can go again for millitary techs like MC>Machinery. I expect that we will be not more than 20 turns later on Machinery if we go on Alfa>Lit first. IMO while we get CS the turns spend will be less in Alfa>lit>MC>Machinery>Col>CS path vs directly MC>Machinery>Col>CS

Conquistador 63 · Aug 15, 2007

I played my 10 turns and uploaded the save. Saladin wants a closer relationship, but that doesn't necessarily means peace

- instead he has 3 galleys and is dropping troops in our island every once in a while.

Bulbed Theology, now we're a christian theocracy. I used the missionary in Turfan, the copper city. Hopefully the religion will spread on its own to our other cities.

I managed to kill a settling party and grab a worker but a misclick a few turns later made us lose that same worker to another landing party. :blush:

Upload log.

Spoiler :

Autolog

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 said:
So I guess I should have been more clear before founding Ning-hsia as I am getting killed on the Library build. I was going under the assumption that we were targeting a SE economy, hence the Library. I still feel like we need a science boost from somewhere. If we can get it to run 2 scientists, it is the same as GL without the culture, and it doesn't expire.

It may be worse than that. I tried to hire a scientist in the cities which already have libraries (Karak, Besh) and the game didn't allow it! I think we should report this bug by PM to the admins. If we have to live with it, we must rethink any attempt at running a SE.

da_Vinci · Aug 15, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
It may be worse than that. I tried to hire a scientist in the cities which already have libraries (Karak, Besh) and the game didn't allow it! I think we should report this bug by PM to the admins. If we have to live with it, we must rethink any attempt at running a SE.

This is looking like some kind of bug ... here are some posts that have reported it:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5813266&postcount=1283

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5813569&postcount=1284

and the thread link (1200+ posts !!!)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=229172

In my case, if I set the city governor to emphasize GP points, I got my buttons to add specialists (but IIRC, not always the full number was allowed).

I added all of the threads regarding the new versions (patches) and the HOF mod to my subscribed threads, to keep up with these issues, which appear to be numerous. If there is interest , I can post the links to the set of threads I am tracking on this.

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 15, 2007

The server site is having issues, so I can't download the save just yet.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - just played
hellwitch - UP NOW
da_Vinci - on deck
Thrallia - in the hole
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

Am I understanding that we cannot assign specialists for some reason? That would definitely put a crimp in plans for Specialist economy.

Conquistador 63 · Aug 15, 2007

You might load up a previous save and try to assign a scientist in Karak - this is not an irreversible move, so it is ok to do it. Unless you find a workaround to it, as our team's captain I suggest you PM the game admin about the subject.

da_Vinci · Aug 15, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
You might load up a previous save and try to assign a scientist in Karak - this is not an irreversible move, so it is ok to do it. Unless you find a workaround to it, as our team's captain I suggest you PM the game admin about the subject.

Did previous saves have any completed libraries? Might be that you are the only one who can test this out C63 ... until the server is back up. See if switching the governor to emphasize GP production doesn't give you the +/- workaround for the scientists. IIRC, set to GP emphasis, add specialist, then you can turn off GP emphasis and the specialist stays.

dV

Addendum: getting back to the progress page OK now.

dV

Conquistador 63 · Aug 15, 2007

I'm away from game PC until tomorrow, but Karak's library was done in Lehm's turnset.
Unrelated thoughts/suggestions:
1. I agree with hw, alpha/lit after construction (which will take a while, though).
2. Monastery in Ning or Turfan to spread faith?
3. Cottages over farmed tiles when workers are idle?
4. Maybe killing a bunch of Sal's invading troops will be enough to get peace from him? (just to alleviate WW)
5. In the pop3 cities (capitol and christian cities), beware of whipping, as -1 happiness may not wear off before pop regrows.

SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

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