SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

I'm away from game PC until tomorrow, but Karak's library was done in Lehm's turnset.
Unrelated thoughts/suggestions:
1. I agree with hw, alpha/lit after construction (which will take a while, though).
2. Monastery in Ning or Turfan to spread faith?
3. Cottages over farmed tiles when workers are idle?
4. Maybe killing a bunch of Sal's invading troops will be enough to get peace from him? (just to alleviate WW)
5. In the pop3 cities (capitol and christian cities), beware of whipping, as -1 happiness may not wear off before pop regrows.

1. I can skip MC for now too. If we were going for the silver, then forges would be +2 , but if not emphasizing the silver, no rush for them.

2. Why not monastery in a city that makes enough commerce for the +10% science to matter? So why not Besh or Karak (which ones are Christian so far? )

3. Cottage over only if we can work the cottages? When and if we get out from under WW, might want farms to grow pop, then cottage over?

4. Works for me.

5. Just need to work the high hammer, low pop tiles (or coast tiles 1F 2C) or specialists until whip unhappy wears off. No need to fear the whip if managed right (spoken like a true dV )

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I just PM'd Alan about the specialist issues. I'm sure it will get worked out.

I just got the save loaded and I can assign scientists in both Karak and Besh.

I thought we were building a settler next (somewhere) for the east bridge city.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I just PM'd Alan about the specialist issues. I'm sure it will get worked out.

I just got the save loaded and I can assign scientists in both Karak and Besh.

Weird, I'm sure I couldn't.

I thought we were building a settler next (somewhere) for the east bridge city.

My bad, should have mentioned that shortest build order I imagined was to get close to pop4 in Karak, before starting it. When we reach less than 90h missing to complete it, switch to axemen, let it grow and whip it for 2 pop the following turn. I hope this makes sense, looks like I was somewhat unfocused when I played - for a moment I imagined new troops from all cities would benefit from Theo, which is obviously not the case.

 

[AlanH]

Gyathaar suggests there may be a problem with the specialist stacker in the HoF Mod? If those of you that can't assign specialists are using that feature, I suggest you try turning it off and see if the problem goes away.

 

[Thrallia]

that would explain the problems I was having with specialists in GOTM21 also...

 

[hellwitch]

i am away form my PC now i will play tonight or tomorrow as i don't know how my time will go today. I just want to ask - what are the latest plans. Attack Sal or Alex or ....?(i havent see the save yet)

 

[da_Vinci]

i am away form my PC now i will play tonight or tomorrow as i don't know how my time will go today. I just want to ask - what are the latest plans. Attack Sal or Alex or ....?(i havent see the save yet)

I think we go for the main continent ASAP via Alex. He has two cities on the bridge island ... raze both, (some gold for the coffers) and then go get our mids.

This is a while off, as the bridge city is yet to be founded, and we have yet to build ships.

dV

Addendum: Thinking about the wait to get east bridge city up and running, what about sending a force west first, then going east later? If we can take out one civ going west before we hit Alex, it will be better for the WW. And we can defend Polynesian if needed by going west first.

Still make the east bridge city for the iron.

Downside of split forces is they are smaller. Upside is we can pincers the mainland. Maybe get more peace earlier.

dV

 

[hellwitch]

I got it.
I will go for settler in Kakak.
Monastery in the west bridge city(i don't see why we need this library now).
i will whip the granary in bashbalik and a galley in Turfan after the current axe.
But i will play tomorrow because i have an apointment this evening.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think we need to get some consensus on which cities are production cities, and which cities are commerce cities. Seems to me that Besh, with the gold, and Karak, with the palace, should be focusing on commerce.

Turfan and Ning-hsia, with three hills each, are production cities.

Ideally, we'd put a monastery in a city with commerece for the +10% science. But neither one has our religion yet. If we put a monastery in Ning-hsia, eventually the dye brings in some commerce, I suppose. At least there we don't disrupt the ongoing troop builds in Turfan.

We have to make decisions about pop growth too. With specialist stacker off, or using my governor workaround, we can put scientists to work. Two in Karak cuts const to 17 turns.

Maybe we want temple in Ning_hsia first? we could maybe whip it with the coming pop (five turns away), then go monastery, and when whip wears off, we can run pop 3 there? Or after monastery.

Do we all agree to abandon the library in Ning-hsia? I hate wasting the hammers, but no sense throwing good hammers after bad if it is destined to be a production city. If we keep it for commerce, then which of Karak and Besh should be production focused?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I still like Ning as a scientist city. We need to get some science from somewhere. The Rice allows us to support 2 scientists, the same as GL. I think we whip the Lib when available, and add scientists as it grows back. We don't have any bonus tiles to work here besides the food!

Besh has the quarry and the gold mine, a good production site right now.
Karak picked up horses, so it is OK production now also.
Turfan is good production of course.
East bridge city will be production city with Iron mine.

We need to keep working the bonus tiles where ever we can.

If we need Monastary now to spread religion, I think we must build it in Turfan. Build boats in Besh and Karak (settler) until we can spread religion to those cities.

Once those 4 cities are building troops, we will be in good shape.

 

[da_Vinci]

I would be fine to go with R1's plan above, or an alternative, but we just need to pick one and stick to it.

Seems to me that eventually, Ning makes more hammers at pop 3 from three hills than Karak does from pighill and horse. So does it make more sense to plan on Karak for science, and Ning for production? Could pasture the pigs and push GP points in Karak if it is not saddled to hammer production.

If we would rather have Karak not be a hammer city, and Ning to be, then we punt the library now, I think. Or if not, we complete the Library.

I favor punting Library, but I can live with Ning for science too ... we just need not to be waffling about this issue any longer.

The polls are now open.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I obviously vote for my plan above.

The main thing my plan allows is maximum use of population. We work the bonus tiles where ever we can.

I think the aspect that we need to MM the most is population usage. That's why I hate to "waste" pop on specialists if they can work bonus tiles. The bonus tiles are always worth more than the specialist, but specialists are always worth more than unimproved tiles, and sometimes worth more than improved tiles.

Ning_Hsia with only the 1 bonus food is a perfect spot to use specialists.

 

[Lehm]

Both plans the one of dV and the one of R1 sound interesting to me. Would that mean we will have a city producing nothing? Only scientists as we can´t grow above pop 3? Mh, never did that before. But Ning-shia seems to be a good place for doing that. So agreed to R1´s plan... (but it shouln´t be hard to convience me voting for another plan)

 

[hellwitch]

I think Ning must be production as it is near to our enemies. And a center of all Saladin's activity. The food from the rice can be used to support 2-3 mines.
Karak normaly(the pigs hook) with temple and the palace is more like to support scientists and 4pop (maybe not soon). Karak already have GPP +2. Yes the pool will not be clear but we can use a propet for a shrine. Aslo i would like to see GL in Karak after some time.
Karak have dye too. After CS the capitol will became a excellent science city.
I dont have problems with specialists at all.
My vote is for monastery in Ning now, A boat after the axe in Tufran. A settler in Karak. And a boat in Besh after whip the granary after some turns.
Karak - sci; Ning - production.

Can i rename Ning to West Bridge because the currunt name sounds... just don't sounds at all.

 

[g_storrow]

Just a few notes.
When we decide what each is doing lets rename the cities so we know what each one is like last game. like west bridge prod or science.

I like hw and r1 arguments as well. aside we do know that ning will support 3 pop i assume we know that. I think karak has more food and more happiness so i think it should be science. if that makes ning prod then thats my vote.

Could of points for in the future. I think there is a slight problem with the two barbarians cities on the main island they only have 1 defender each! we might want to send something over.
What is gonig on with polnesian with all tose workers the muppet. He could be as much as a pain as gandhi!
Also I am personally in favor of giving saladin a quite kick so he makes peace then more onto Alex.

 

[da_Vinci]

There are good points on both sides of the W Bridge arguement (I have renamed Ning in my head already ). While we are stuck at pop 3, WBridge can only work rice and two mines for 7 hammers (1 from city tile).

Karak can work farm, horse and mined pighill for 8 hammers IIRC.

Each can work farm plus two scientists if it is dedicated to science.

So at pop 3 limit, Karak is better for production.

But if we can get to pop 4, WBridge can run farm and 3 mines for 10 hammers. Karak can run farm, horse, mine, for 8, and a forest for one more?

Now WBridge is the better production city. And if we don't need hammers from Karak, if we pasture the pigs we could run two scientists and a prophet (after temple) and make Karak a GP farm. But that depends on getting WW down and/or happiness up.

So in the short run, pop 3 or less, WBridge for science is better. Pop 4 or more, I think WBridge for production is better.

While I agree in general not to waste productive tiles, in the final analysis what use of the cities maxes out the civilization's output?

If we agree on that, then the question is do we build for the short term, or do we build for the long term?

If attacking Saladin to make peace will improve WW and allow pop 4, then maybe we should do that and pursue the WBridge as production strategy. If we are going after Alex first, then WW is bad for a while, maybe WBridge as science makes sense.

I am not at the game to count, but do we need more hammers to finish library than we need to make barracks in WBridge? If so, then I'd say lets use those hammers on a barracks in WBridge. When we get to pop 4, would we still run science in WBridge, and not use 10 hpt?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I have waffled a ton on this, but I'm for WBridge as production, as it is what we want long term.

Current votes:

WBridge for hammers: dV, g_s, h_w

WBridge for beakers: R1, Lehm (sort of?)

Yet to weigh in: C63, S2, Thrallia (unless I have missed something?)

I also think hammers in WBridge gets coupled with "beat Sal into peace ASAP". That optimizes WBridge for hammers AND Karak for beakers and GP points.

 

[Scout214]

1) If one of you guys doesn't rename that doggone city Westbridge officially, I will when it's my turn set!

2) The mountains around Westbridge suggest a good location for Production. I also share Ronnie's concern, though, about having a science city. In this scenario, it will be especially important to develop places for that purpose because we may never have the opportunity to trade techs with the other civs (offset only a little bit by Barbarian research). Thus, I am more than willing to agree to designate Westbridge as a Production city so long as we agree which other city(ies) we will develop as Science installations. Perhaps Beshbalik? Eastbridge?! Alex's or Sal's cities?? Please ante up on that consideration, if you haven't already.

 

[da_Vinci]

I guess that is 4 votes for production. So with 50% support and player's perrogative, I suppose hw can pursue a production plan for WBridge.

That and deference to hw's demonstrated clarvoyance!

Regarding optimal tile usage ... the mined pighill in Karak is actually a suboptimal tile usage, I think. If we unburden Karak from being a hammer city, we can pasture the pigs for its optimal use.

We might keep pumping hammers out of Karak for a while, get enough troops to whack Sal into peace. Then transition Karak to science as WBridge gets to full production.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I think the aspect that we need to MM the most is population usage. That's why I hate to "waste" pop on specialists if they can work bonus tiles. The bonus tiles are always worth more than the specialist, but specialists are always worth more than unimproved tiles, and sometimes worth more than improved tiles.

I like this argument in general, but is this one of those "sometimes"? I'm not 100% convinced. I'd rather accumulate the library research bonus on cities which already have decent commerce (Karak, Besh). Therefore, I wouldn't have started a library there, and would prefer hw's plan. But I'd like to know how many hammers already invested, and how far are we from completing library before deciding.

I also share S214's above concerns. Do you think that site "3b" (clams) from someone else's dotmap could be that scientist city? Or would yet another city hurt our maintenance cost too bad?