SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

Ronnie1 · Aug 11, 2007

Nice work 214!!

The roster order is

Lehm - on deck
Conquistador 63 - in the hole
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - just played
Ronnie1 - UP NOW I got it! I'll be looking at the save immediately, and posting my opinions soon.

Ronnie1 · Aug 11, 2007

It looks pretty straight forward to me.
Mids, chop the far forest, save the FC forest for the end.

Switch to Chariot in Karak and work the pigs and horses, done in 4t. Follow with Library unless more units show up right away.

2 Archers in Turfan after barracks, then axes non stop, maybe some galleys after sailing.

I don't believe Sal will attack us with the party we see now. That is a settler party, and that archer won't leave the settler. He will however send another boat with 2 archers/chariots/axes depending on his assets. He has copper and horses, just as we do. With iron in a poor location as well.

I like settling in the west.

I intend to play tomorrow night, 23-24 hrs from now.

da_Vinci · Aug 11, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I don't believe Sal will attack us with the party we see now. That is a settler party, and that archer won't leave the settler. He will however send another boat with 2 archers/chariots/axes depending on his assets. He has copper and horses, just as we do. With iron in a poor location as well.

I tend to agree, but just in case, send the Karak warrior south to Turfan. Move the scout east, it could be the second defender we might need to buy time. The galley could unload the archer south of turfan in 2 turns IIRC ... and the warrior could occupy that site and block it if needed. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I agree with all the rest you said. With a final whip, I think it is 17 tuns to mids

goodjob: ) or gold

cry: )

dV

Thrallia · Aug 12, 2007

Lehm said:
Oh, and I counted the tiles of the land which we see now.

Our island - 78 tiles
big continent - 672 tiles
Saladin - 87 tiles
island west to us - 22
Qin - 141 tiles
island SE (where Alex has the city now) - 28 tiles
island in the E - 8 tiles

and then there is some other stuff.

The important thing is that the big continent has by far enough tiles to support the domination limit and we also have some islands close to us to be able to spawn settlers very fast.

So what do you guys think about the plan? Bad thing which could happen is that Alex is going to declare war on us again as he is coming closer to us. So we still need some defence on our island. Good thing is that we can react early as we can see how many units the AI has on board their ships and how many.

I wouldn't accept Alex's land % as absolutely correct...it rounds anything AI related in the victory tab.

The most accurate way to do it is what I suggested, changing the domination % warning low enough it goes off next turn. It tells you exactly how many tiles you need to win, and how many you have.

But if you guys don't wanna do that, you can do the calculation that it does, manually

Go into the demographics, look at our land area, and divide it by 1000. That's how many tiles we have. Then go into the victory screen, and look at our land %. Divide the land % by how many tiles we have (eg. 77/.0638) and you'll get how many tiles there are on the map in total.

After that, you can easily find out exactly how many tiles we need to own to get domination.

Also, for population domination, the more alive opponents there are, the lower the domination point is...so perhaps we leave all the continental AIs with one small city with very little culture, so that we can get pop domination faster?

Ronnie1 · Aug 12, 2007

A new save is up.

The roster order is

Lehm - UP NOW
Conquistador 63 - on deck
hellwitch - in the hole
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - just played

As hw predicted, we got a pile 'o gold, 534 to be exact, on turn 141.

We learned Meditation, Priesthood, and Pottery, and are 3 turns from Math @ 100% Science.

Sal sailed past and founded a city NE of our island.

I played to turn 150. This next inning we are going to go with 10 turn sets.

The good news, if there is any, is that Alex built the mids. Meaning we could alter our strategy and target him 1st.

We got a Great Prophet, he is in Karak. If we detour to Poly and Mono after Math, we may be able to bulb Theology.

The Upload log.

Spoiler :

The Autolog.

Spoiler :

da_Vinci · Aug 12, 2007

Looks good, R1! :goodjob:

I want to know what is in hellwitch's stock portfolio, because I'm switching to that! :lol:

Maybe we let him tell us what to do, and we just do it?

So folks, how bad do we want mids? Bad enough to go for Alex right off? That would mean settling the eastern bridge city ... which gets us the iron, so maybe that's OK? I am tempted to do that.

Sailing is still 64 beakers away ... any idea how many free ones per turn we are getting? If just three, its still 20 turns off. Two if we go finish it. Can we please go get it after math, and start making some galleys? This is a race, after all.

Then I am for getting the religious techs to bulb theol for founding Christianity. Found the iron city, make swords, axes and spears, so they are ready when we can start to make cats.

I see that Edo fell ... stupid barbs.

We are still pretty much where the other teams are, so our chances are still good, I think.

Some MM issues:

Ning-hsia ... not sure why we are making roads and not farming the rice? And while my natural instinct is also to make libraries soon, with no cottages, not sure there is a point to that in Ning-hsia ... looks like a production city to me, a place to make a navy after we mine some hills.

So maybe kill the library, get a barracks and then galleys?

I see we are chopping jungle on the dye ... wouldn't chopping jungle hill for another mine make more sense?

dV

g_storrow · Aug 13, 2007

I think detour for theology seems a good idea.

I am unsure what the grand plan is next?

I like the idea of taknig alex for the pyrmids but he is our only friend at the moment. have we tried to get peace with asoka as he is the only one who will take besh for peace maybe we offer it him without the city.

Where is the plan for next city? Are we planning on iron bridge or west island?

hellwitch · Aug 13, 2007

Well Alex was really after the big thing. Even by my plan we were 1 turn after alex :sad:

. I am for attacking Alex, Mono after Math and Sailing(i think that will will get it for free in the future 20 turns) blub Teo then Construction. I think that razing 1-2 Sals cities will calm him down and he will make peace but this depend on our millitary size. I like very much the possibility of 1C 2CR swords

Why we still keep the scout. We pay 1 gold for him every turn.
I would like to build a spear in the copper city NOW. Because if Sal send a charriot(or HA) we will wonder how to kill it!!!

Lehm · Aug 13, 2007

I downloaded the file and I am ready to play the 10 turns.

What will we build next in Karak? The library will we finished soon and then axeman would be nice.

Beshbalik has a worker in the queue. I think we should build axeman instead. (when the library is finsihed)

Turfan will continue with axeman

Why did we go for maths when the next techs are others than construction? Maths will be done in 3 turns. After it I would go for construction then sailing. Of course we could lightbulb a tech with a higher value than Priesthood or whatever, but what do we need Theology for? Do you really think it´s woth it to get 1 smiley for the religion in our cities?

And do we really have to pay 1 gold each turn for the scout? If so I would delete him...

Conquistador 63 · Aug 13, 2007

I noticed the worker in queue too, I think he was there before we changed to mids build, but now all investment on it is lost, so no problem removing it from build list.

Also, I'm not the one who suggested it, but I believe the idea on lightbulbing Theology is to adopt theocracy civic, for +2xp for troops built in cities with the religion. In this case we'd better bulb it soon so we can also found christianity, because if someone does it before us, bulbing theo would be useless as we'll have no access to a religion (no other religion will spread to us - no trade routes available).

However, I'm not sure how many beakers would it take us to get there, and if it is worth the trouble. I could be convinced either way.

And I believe we had a fair deal getting that gold from the failed shot at mids - especially the doubled hammers from stone. We should spent this cash reserve with fast, focused research, because if we intend to spam troops from now on, I believe unit upkeep will be a pain.

I'd vote for a settler at some point to build the eastern cultural bridge, I think capturing Athens' pyramids is well worth changing our expansion from westbound to eastbound. Of course, we should take care of Saladin first.

And back on conquest vs domination issue, I almost never try any of these, so I'll take any advice from the experts. I just wanted to point out that Astro isn't needed for conquest, as someone could have thought.

hellwitch · Aug 13, 2007

Make one spear in Turfan after the current axe. Else we will have pillage troubles soon.

Thrallia · Aug 13, 2007

I thought astro would be required, but since it is not, it could be fast enough to be worth doing.

I notice the Gypsy Kings should now be adept at naval/amphibious warfare so conquest could be faster, if the cities the AI founds on the various islands are coastal.

As for the Pyramids, I'm actually surprised that Alex built them. He doesn't usually go for the early wonders in my games. I do think we should head toward him first though, as he's likely light on defense, since he has to have been working on the Pyramids for quite a long time in order to beat us.

I think we should at least scout his lands to see what kind of defenses we'd be up against before we take on Saladin, to see if it'd be easier to take him out first(like, he doesn't have copper and doesn't know about iron yet, few troops still, etc)

I also think Theology could be a good diversion, since the only tech we'd have to research for it is Monotheism and we could lightbulb Theo.

Anything else I have to offer will need to wait until later...I've got to study for my summer finals, then I have family coming over tonight.

Ronnie1 · Aug 13, 2007

Ning-hsia ... not sure why we are making roads and not farming the rice? And while my natural instinct is also to make libraries soon, with no cottages, not sure there is a point to that in Ning-hsia ... looks like a production city to me, a place to make a navy after we mine some hills.

I don't like to waste worker moves, so I was moving 1 square and putting a turn into the roads. I may have forgotten to clear the worker actions the last turn. I see Ning-hsia as a city that can support 2 scientists with the rice.

da_Vinci · Aug 13, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I don't like to waste worker moves, so I was moving 1 square and putting a turn into the roads. I may have forgotten to clear the worker actions the last turn. I see Ning-hsia as a city that can support 2 scientists with the rice.

How long a wait to get there? Would production be a better use for that city? 3 hills, all grassland. If we get Theo and Christianity, an extra happy face means pop 3 instead of pop 2, a 33% increase in our city yields? So I say let's go get it!

Math was to get to const, but is also makes chops more productive. After math, we could chop the library in Besh, for example. I would be willing to hold off on sailing until we get techs for theo, then go const or get sailing first, depending on whether we have enough troops at that point, and need to start the boats. If still need to make troops, the boats can wait a bit.

No one else has met Alex, so if we declare on him again now, no war on friend issues, if that matters (maybe it does not).

dV

hellwitch · Aug 14, 2007

We will get Sailing for free very soon < 10 turns.

I make some calcs on the free breakers grow and it seems that if we continue to Construction as we finnish it Mono will be not more than 5-6 turns(Poly for free). We get more free breakers on more expensive techs from what i saw(Somehow we get 8-9 free breaker on sailing now).

The other way is after Math>Poly for 3 turns>Mono for 9 or 8 turns > Then Construction. That way we will get Teo about 20 turns earlier but the Cats will be ~ 20 turns later. If we want a high promoted units this could be the right way.

IMO the second path is better as the +1

will allow us pop3 at least in the capitol.
Before Teo is found it is better to work the bananas instead of the pig hill .A wimp at city pop will allow us to make granary/troops very fast. The granary is better i think because it will make the wimp better. The wimp and/or chop can build our navy in no time.
Economicaly IMO our goal will be to support larger and larger army. Blub make sense but i can't see how we will support specialists with pop3 even pop4 cities if the near future. In this line of thoughts GL could be our target after Construction. Why? Because i cant see how we will get Col+CS+MC+Machinary(for maces) for less than 150-200 turn. While GL will make this tech with a very different timing + GPP will be a big plus for our small cities empire.

g_storrow · Aug 14, 2007

hw: why do you call it wimp? when it is whip.

da_Vinci · Aug 14, 2007

If we get sailing for free in 10 turns, I can wait for that.

If we get Christianity, we get 1 happy from religion in city, and 1 happy if we build a temple so I think we might get all cities to pop 3. I like the idea of theocracy sooner so troops are more promoted.

Finish math so that chops are bigger, then chop the lib in Besh (boost the gold resource).

If we go east, get a silver city, and MC for forges doubles happy from gold and silver, right?

I would use Turfan and Ning-hsia for production, Karak and Besh for commerce(science and gold). Complete math, then the religion techs to bulb theo. While we wait for const, build the troops and ships. Then build cats everywhere and set sail.

dV

hellwitch · Aug 14, 2007

g_storrow said:
hw: why do you call it wimp? when it is whip.

Sorry but my mother language is very different from English and i didn't notice the difference sometimes. :whipped:

- that is more clear.

For the tech path after Poly>mono(Teo)>Construction: I think the Alfa>literature is good not only because GL,HE,NE but for the tech trade. If we can trade techs we could buy peace for them!!!

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

I played the 10 turns and uploaded the new save. Read the turn log below:

Turn 151, 235 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Turfan. Work has now begun on a Spearman.

Turn 152, 220 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 154, 190 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 156, 160 BC: You have trained a Spearman in Turfan. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 157, 145 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 159, 115 BC: Ning-hsia will grow to size 2 on the next turn

Lehm · Aug 14, 2007

I deleted the scout for saving 1 gold per turn. Ning-shia will grow to size 2 next turn. The rice is farmed and the workers were supposed to mine the hill they are standing on now next to Ning-shia.

Karakorum will grow to size 2 in 2 turns. As we have 6

and 4

, can we afford this growth? Or what does the calculation say about the number of unhappy faces after the growth?

I am not sure because actually I thought I could whip the library in Beshbalik. It was 5

and 4

at size two. After growth to size 3 it was 5

and 7

. Somehow I couldn´t whip anything but I don´t know why. So I set the 1 worked tile on gold hill to let starve 1 pop down to size 2 again.

In turfan the whip worked as expected. Size two again there. I kept the units within our cultural borders as we will have to pay more for our away units when we amount troops.

A cultural bridge city to Alex would cost a lot as it could only be placed on a really unhealthy tile on our island. I think it is better to attack Sal first as there is no need of another city. And later when we have conquered the big continent we will have troops there anyway and we will still have QSH left. Mh, but we will gain money from conquering. I think I don´t have an opinion on that cultural city bridge thing.

SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

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Deity

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