SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

Someone needs to test whether we can get the circumnavigation bonus with Gyathaar's mod (see Maintenance thread).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.

WTH? How can I forget it if I never knew it...So that means if our capital is allocating 10 to research, we only do 5 per turn research? That is truly a big piece of PITA.

Sounds like we need to seriously think about whether to beeline BW or Pottery first.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I've never played a team game so any info, threads, etc. on that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[klarius]

The 50% penalty isn't quite as bad. It means the research cost is 50% higher (so equivalent to -33% research). Still we'll need around 40 turns for a BW beeline.

We don't know if we need sailing for our first war, so that's not urgent before we know more. And fishing is one of the techs the barbs will gain already beakers from the very beginning (3 civs start with fishing; with 7 civs it's 1% when 3 know it, 2% when 5 and 3% when all). So if we don't find seafood right away I would rather collect the free beakers.

The problem with pottery is that we miss at least 2 prerequisites (starting techs). And these will be soon researched by the AI, so also there we will soon get free beakers. Also when more people know it we get extra beakers for that fact alone when we research it.

Edit:
Just saw the circumnavigation question. Gyathaar wrote (pre-game thread) that he didn't fix it. So no bonus for us.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We need to take our first turn to be able to discuss our tech strategy in detail, I guess. For the scout I see these options:

• S -- jungle is probably useless
• W, SW -- again, jungle probably useless.
• W, W -- may discover agri products, hills
• W NW -- may discover agri products, hills
• NW, NW -- may discover seafood (if there's coast NW, NW, NW)

Settler:

• NW -- max. exposure of coastal tiles, but maybe bad spot to settle
• W -- some exposure of coast and W, maybe good spot to settle
• SW SW/W/NW for maximum exposure of land tiles.

So we have a choice of exposing coastal tiles or land tiles. What would be better for us, Fishing or Agriculture (or AH)?

 

[Erkon]

If we settle on coastal river, we can connect copper w/o roads (Wheel) if copper is on river or coast.

Raging barbs usually means eventually triple-promoted archers in AI cities. Hard to beat w/o cats and swords.

Copper on coast is not enough, is it? It has to be on river, or roaded to a river or to a city on the coast... yes/no?

We have two scenarios: either we're isolate or we're not. In case we're isolated, I presume we'll go for the standard commerce focus start. If we have company, we can either rush them before cats or tech to cats and then kill'em all. Are there any other options?

Gnejs has mentioned the Stonehenge. Will that enable barb cities to expand their cultural borders?

My experience in similar games is that we will need cats to dominate (and conquer). And to get to construction as quick as possible, we can't expand very fast, and we need cottages.

It is also vital to know if we can dominate without galleons, so an exploration workboat or two is needed early on. If we have enough tiles reachable from our continent, I suggest that we stop research at construction/horseback riding/bronze working and use the excess funds to fuel our army of death.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Copper on coast is not enough, is it? It has to be on river, or roaded to a river or to a city on the coast... yes/no?

Well, we could settle on the copper, if we decided it would give us a significant advantage, right?

Tell Gnejs to return home from the land of the midnight beer.

EDIT: I like IW better than HBR. Swords are devastating and can even handle LBMS, Xbows. Keshiks are shik.

 

[Erkon]

• NW, NW -- may discover seafood (if there's coast NW, NW, NW)

So we have a choice of exposing coastal tiles or land tiles. What would be better for us, Fishing or Agriculture (or AH)?

The tile NW, NW, NW of scout is probably water. So, with NW-NW with scout we'll see if there are any nice resources 3 tiles away from settler. If not, are there any reasons not to settle on starting spot?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Starting spot looks risky to me. No food. No hammers. (AH will take two eons to research and it's not on our critical path, unless of course we want to build some Keshitks.) The starting spot could have some fat-cross agri tiles to the W or some seafood up topside. I'd almost rather go NW NW with the scout, look around, then burn a turn, if needed, SW with the settler and decide whether to move back NW or go somewhere else.

Check it: the scout reveal those western tiles, so we'd at least know if there's agri W or seafood NW. You're right.

 

[klarius]

Gnejs has mentioned the Stonehenge. Will that enable barb cities to expand their cultural borders?

Wonders work for the whole team, so yes Stonehenge will expand barb borders. But it may also may mean that barb cities steal resources from us.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Wonders work for the whole team, so yes Stonehenge will expand barb borders. But it may also may mean that barb cities steal resources from us.

Of course, there's a 87.5% chance AIs will be the ones to lose resources...

I assume Barb cities also get cultural defense increases with expanded borders, right?

To me it's inconceivable that building a wonder goes hand in hand with fastest conquest or domination. OTOH, if Warmonger Gnejs thought of it, there might be something to it...

 

[klarius]

Of course, there's a 87.5% chance AIs will be the ones to lose resources...

Barb cities cannot spawn on tiles visible to the AI. But they can spawn in our visibility. And I had the case in a test game that I got a barb city on the ivory on my island. The AIs got rid of barb cities in their vicinity sooner or later, but I couldn't do anything about this city.

I assume Barb cities also get cultural defense increases with expanded borders, right?

Sure, but that still doesn't help forever against the 40% advantage the Ais get against barbs.

We can consider to build Stonehenge as it is so cheap. But it will not help the barb defense much. It is somewhat interesting, if there are uninhabited islands the barbs can keep for them alone, where they then can get a lot of tiles.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Tech Path
I think we have some serious testing questions here.

• Is it worth it to bee-line BW to get barb axes out there pillaging?
• How soon do we start our first invasion if we go Fishing>Mng>BW>Sailing?
• How soon can we invade if we go to Writing and build a library first first?

 

[klarius]

I don't think we can decide on the tech path before we know more about our land.
If our capital is as poor as it looks now, I would really go towards BW. Not only for the barbs, but also to chop or pop-rush settlers.
If we have a water resource, we might put priority on fishing. If there is corn or wheat, agriculture might pay off.

After 5 turns elapsed animals appear. Then we should soon know if we have a neighbour on the same landmass.
If yes, BW and axerush is the way to go. If no, we have first to find a passage to our first victim.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There seems a barb team discount/accumulated bulbs on early techs - have you checked how many accumulated bulbs do you already have in Agri, for instance?

@klarius: Is there any truth to this? In other words, does the cost of a tech become gradually cheaper for us as the barbs accumulate beakers on that tech even if we're not researching it? Or is our only discount based on how many AIs know it and free for us whne the barbs learn it?

 

[Big Pig]

@klarius: Is there any truth to this? In other words, does the cost of a tech become gradually cheaper for us as the barbs accumulate beakers on that tech even if we're not researching it? Or is our only discount based on how many AIs know it and free for us whne the barbs learn it?

It is true. You can see the effect for yourself in the test games. Agriculture (say) will start off at 10 turns to research - but 15 turns later it will be only 2turns to research even though neither us or the barbs have been actively researching it

As posted earlier if 3 or more AI know a tech then the barb team will get beakers towards it each turn even if neither we or the barbs are actively researching the tech

 

[Erkon]

Are we in a hurry to kill of the first AI? I've tried to rush the AI in the last two W/GOTM and my experience is that the unit upkeep kills the economy so quick that the research capability dwindles to zero before vital techs are learned. If we plan to tech to construction, I don't think it's wise to rush the nearest AI. It's better to focus on building infrastructure and improve the lands and build cottages. Perhaps send a worker or two to the nearest barb city and improve the land there.

As soon as we get the techs we need, we shut down and capture/expand as quick as we can. If we predict that the AI will have longbowmen, then we need cats. Else I think swordsmen & keshiks will do.

If we plan to move the settler, there is no need to move the scout NW-NW. Instead we can go W-SW or W-W. With the settler move to NW, we will reveal a lot of tiles.

 

[Erkon]

Post 3 updated:

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Erkon
Gnejs
Big Pig

 

[LowtherCastle]

Are we in a hurry to kill of the first AI? I've tried to rush the AI in the last two W/GOTM and my experience is that the unit upkeep kills the economy so quick that the research capability dwindles to zero before vital techs are learned. If we plan to tech to construction, I don't think it's wise to rush the nearest AI. It's better to focus on building infrastructure and improve the lands and build cottages. Perhaps send a worker or two to the nearest barb city and improve the land there. Btw, I wasn't able to improve Barb land other than build roads.

As soon as we get the techs we need, we shut down and capture/expand as quick as we can. If we predict that the AI will have longbowmen, then we need cats. Else I think swordsmen & keshiks will do. I agree, but that's the catch, do we need Construction? I think we almost surely do, because archipelago conquest takes longer than pangea.

If we plan to move the settler, there is no need to move the scout NW-NW. Instead we can go W-SW or W-W. With the settler move to NW, we will reveal a lot of tiles.

If scout goes NW NW, then we might immediately know if settling in place or 1 tile W is good. If Settler goes NW (not river tile I'm guessing) then he has to go S and settle on T3 to be on the river or SW or SE to settle on T2.

There are a few good choices. Kind of depends on whether we're willing to settle on T3 or not.

EDIT: Personally, I like T1: Settler NW, if we decide Fishing is our preferred first tech. We might get 2 seafoods in our fat cross, who knows.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Post 3 updated:

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Erkon
Gnejs
Big Pig

I was first, BP last, in the previous game. Not fair to BP.