SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

BTW, I don't think writing w/o BW helps us a lot. It will take forever to build a library by hand in the hammer poor region we see up to now. And in the one test I did BW took more than 110 turns to come for free.

All good info, thanks.

What I'm looking at is not so much getting BW for free. It's more about the consideration that our research pace is going to be slowed by the 50% penalty and lack of the Alphabet leap-frog. So beelining Wtg is more about how to minimize our entire Tech Path. Building a library is just one part of that, as you have described. BW>Wtg seems like full price whereas Wtg>BW seems heavily discounted.

Normally, I would automatically go BW first for the fast conquest, but on this map not only do we have the 50% penalty and no-tech start, but also, in all likelihood, we need Sailing as well to attack our first AI. Lacking a food tech, BW only really gets us 1 settler through chopping and poprushing. Is that what you're looking at?

With only one settler built, we could possibly whip up an Axe rush, but it would only really pay off, I think, if it netted us a couple prize cities close enough to our capital to be affordable.

That said, I guess I agree with you that this discussion heavily depends on what our scout reveals for our capital. I still think that either now or that point we show run some test games, before playing on, to determine whether going BW is significantly slower, tech-wise, than focusing on cottages and/or Wtg first.

The Russian teams run numerous test early on, as I assume you've noticed.

 

[Big Pig]

The start files are now available!

Clearly we need to get some more info on our locale by moving the scout to enable better planning on settling, initial techs etc. 1NW is the best first move - then a second 1NW (to reveal the NW sea tiles and the western land tiles / hills) seems optimal unless the scouts first MP reveals something interesting to the west.

Once we have done that our discussions on techs and settling will (hopefully) have more relevence

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Check in right now - and prepared to read the 4-pages disscusion !

Regards

 

[Erkon]

I'm happy to let someone make the scout move and then upload. But first we need to settle the turn set order. I'm fine with putting myself last. I prefer to stay next to Gnejs since that will enable us to sort out the small details by phone. Assuming we play a turn set twice a week, we'll probably have made a full circle at the end of August. We're not in a hurry, so it may take longer, but if anyone is planning a vacation in the next week or two, I need to know (probably you have stated it somewhere else, and I've missed it )

So, if you want to change your position in the list, please tell me where you want to be inserted. BP, shall I squeeze you between Mîtiu and Murky?

 

[Big Pig]

Assuming we play a turn set twice a week, we'll probably have made a full circle at the end of August. We're not in a hurry, so it may take longer, but if anyone is planning a vacation in the next week or two, I need to know (probably you have stated it somewhere else, and I've missed it )

I am away for 10 days from next Thu (Aug 2) so stick me somewhere so my turnset falls before or after then

Although we are not in a hurry, I am worried with a large team that it will get boring if everyone only plays 1 turnset per month, and that will cause people to lose interest. Consequently I think it is important that you are strict about timing of 'got its' and play (while still making sure that there has been adequate pre-turnset discussion)

 

[Erkon]

I am away for 10 days from next Thu (Aug 2) so stick me somewhere so my turnset falls before or after then

Although we are not in a hurry, I am worried with a large team that it will get boring if everyone only plays 1 turnset per month, and that will cause people to lose interest. Consequently I think it is important that you are strict about timing of 'got its' and play (while still making sure that there has been adequate pre-turnset discussion)

I've updated post#2 with what I think are suitable rules & directives. Let me know if anyone has objections/questions/suggestions.

We could have a rule for when the save must be uploaded, but I'm a little bit worried that such a rule will do more harm than good. I think it's realistic to anticipate that a turn set is played every three days on average. You are correct that we/I need a bit discipline to ensure a steady pace and a fun game. We definately need a new turn set to start no later than 72 hours after the previous ended, which I hope is evident in post #2. I will enforce the got-it rule.

 

[Big Pig]

The power is definitely going to the boy's head. I always fondly imagined the Swedes were laid-back liberal types but there is certainly a dose of the Teutonic or Swiss about our new Captain and his 'Rules and Directives' (obligatory emoticon as per Rule 4, subsection 5.3, para 12)
What ever happened to the promised welcome message????

I think it is important to clarify (as MW life president ) that the number one goal (or "directive") of team MW is to have a fun and enjoyable SGOTM experience - winning a laurel will just make it all the more fun

PS. Don't forget to wait a couple of hours to respond to this Erkon as per Diective #4

 

[Erkon]

I've updated post#3:
========================
I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

Big Pig
LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Gnejs
Erkon
========================

As soon as we all have agreed on the first move with the scout (current consensus is NW-NW), I think BP should do it and upload.

Other viable moves is NW-SW and NW-W.

I think our lack of hills is the largest problem. Perhaps we should find another site (far west) for our capital? We can also move the settler NW and the scout NW-SW?

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

I have no problem with this new order of play.

However I have one BIG question before any other : which type of victory do you belive will be the most quick to obtain ?
Conquest because possible Diplomatic Victory is almost impossible on that special settings ?

Regards

 

[Erkon]

I have no problem with this new order of play.

However I have one BIG question before any other : which type of victory do you belive will be the most quick to obtain ?
Conquest because possible Diplomatic Victory is almost impossible on that special settings ?

Regards

I don't know if conquest or domination will be the fastest. I plan to play a test game tonight to get a better feeling of the distance involved and the number of tiles that are needed.

The risk with going for conquest is that we may need astronomy. We will know more when the animals appear.

We need to identify the difference in starting strategy for conquest vs domination. Is there any?

 

[Big Pig]

Do not forget, to download the SGOTM save you will need:

1. Patch 1.73
This requires you to either install Beyond the Sword or to patch from the advanced option in the Vanilla Civ start-up menu. If you choose the second option you may need to update your DirectX version (see my post in the New Patches thread in the GOTM forum)
2. Gyathaar's special HoF mod
Download it from the maintainence thread into your Mods folder​

 

[Big Pig]

@Erkon: shall I get the scout move done? We have been discussing options for 48h now, so if anyone had completely contradictory views they would have been aired by now. That way we can make a decent attempt at mimicking the starting position for our test games.

I plan (as posted earlier) to move 1NW and I will post a screenshot. Unless this reveals (say) a gold hill further W/SW, I would then plan to move the scout a further NW.

 

[Erkon]

@Erkon: shall I get the scout move done? We have been discussing options for 48h now, so if anyone had completely contradictory views they would have been aired by now. That way we can make a decent attempt at mimicking the starting position for our test games.

I plan (as posted earlier) to move 1NW and I will post a screenshot. Unless this reveals (say) a gold hill further W/SW, I would then plan to move the scout a further NW.

BP, go ahead with 1NW and post the screenshot. The second move depends on if we want to move the settler so please wait for 200 posts of discussion before moving the second step

 

[Big Pig]

Well, that's interesting!!!!! The scout revealed.......
















a grassland tile

None of the three tiles in the western FOW are hills (EDIT: on further fog-gazing, all the tiles appear to be flat unwooded grassland). And the line of jungle continues in the south FOW tiles.
I await further discussion

 

[klarius]

Just do the second NW move. Doesn't look like we can reveal anything really interesting and we should know at least what we lose if we move the settler.
I anyway don't think that there is a great site anywhere near. What would be the point to put us where we are .

 

[Big Pig]

Well, I hope you all like bananas:


I can't upload the save game as it is still 4000Bc, so I've attached it below:
View attachment Temujin BC-4000.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Big Pig]

It looks as if we have 2 options:

1. Settle on the spot, T1. This is not a great location unless there is seafood in the 2 coastal FOW tiles to the N of the island. However farming the banana and mining the pigs gives reasonable growth and production until AH and Calendar comes along

2. Delay settling 1 turn to look for a better spot (e.g. 2W). If we move 1SW with the settler on T1, and then 1W, 1NE with the scout on turn 2, all the remaining grassland and coastal tiles north of the jungle will be revealed, allowing the settler to move and settle on T2. It loses a turn but allows us to choose the best site in the vicinity (which may still be where we started)

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

I vote for settle on place.
Not a extraodinary location - but a playable one.

Regards all

 

[klarius]

I would also settle in place. Even some seafood in the west wouldn't make this a really great site. So just take what we have.

 

[Big Pig]

I would probably cast my vote for delaying 1 turn for the option of settling 2W if western seafood is revealed. It is a gamble of course - if we lose, then we are 1 turn behind everybody else, but if we win we should be in a stronger starting position.

If we settle in spot and there is no northern seafood then it seems we will have to research Agr>Mining>BW to get a reasonable growth rate.

With seafood, we can research Fish>Mining>BW. Fishing is ~2/3 cheaper in beakers than Agr and will provide either 1 or 1 per turn yield more than a farm on the bananas. So if (and it is a big if) there is a good chance of finding seafood to the west, then I think we should take it