SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

Hi guys! My apologies for misunderstandings. I'm wordy, but I really try not to be.

Simplifications

1. I have two high-powered variants: klarius' and mine.
2. Both produce 1 more worker and 2 more settlers by T30.
3. klarius' produces more
4. My variant gets Gold City out faster, is ready for war on Sal sooner, and has very early exploration.
5. Both variants can end up looking the same otherwise, by about T50.

Clarifications

1. I am not in favor of either variation: it depends on our strategy, what we want to do.
2. I'm just looking for a pwerful MM to match our strategy.
3. My T30-T50 ideas (war on Sal) were not a PLAN, but just FOR PERSPECTIVE.
4. I have NOT ignored granaries. My plan was to T30, Pottery coming toward the end.
5. I DO NOT like Copper City 1W of mountains, BIG LOSS not having hill in inner city (for any build). No early specialization. - Hey, now you're trying to fool me again Erkon Copper Town will not work any hills, but copper and farms/cottages. So, does it really matter?
6. I DO like Erkon's idea of several pop4-5 prod centers, but have not studied his dot map. - I'm not surprised...

Note:

1. I can post an excel chart showing both variants if anyone's interested.
2. This is a -poor, -poor island, guys. Things go slowly, building wkrs, settlers, granaries, etc. That's why it might be good to attack Sal ASAP for the free wkrs.

Good summary ! Does the klarius-klam variant produce more even if you count the inter city trade?

Saladin? You mean Alex, don't you? Probably a typo, so you are forgiven.

LC, are you back in Europe or are you still in exile?

This island will be much better once we get rid of the jungle

 

[LowtherCastle]

- Hey, now you're trying to fool me again Erkon Copper Town will not work any hills, but copper and farms/cottages. So, does it really matter? It's a matter of choice. How much faster research do we need? We don't know without further exporation, do we? Yes we need fast and a lot of research, but warring nets us gold, etc. It's a hidden form of faster research.

Good summary ! Does the klarius-klam variant produce more even if you count the inter city trade? Yes, I think so, because intercity trade can't happen until T12-13 + 2 roads at the earliest.

Saladin? You mean Alex, don't you? Probably a typo, so you are forgiven. No typo. Saladin is just to the S and has invited us to a Worker Roast. Didn't you get the invitation?

LC, are you back in Europe or are you still in exile?

This island will be much better once we get rid of the jungle Yes, and that's key to why I like Copper S. It gives us a powerful prod center for warring in teh 50 turns (or whatever) before IW.

I'm still in exile...for a long to come too.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, here are my 2 variants:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/2_variants.zip

@klarius: If you get a chance to look at them, I'd appreciate feedback on whether I calculated the tech costs right...

Looks like the Clam Drojf variant is 12 ahead when pottery is done = 1 turn faster, but the gold mine is done 3 turns later. Clam Drojf will have an additional advantage in that it will grow to size pop2 and pop3 sooner in the Clam Drojf variation.

 

[Murky]

LC, just as a thought, what about putting a city just west of the copper? That would get the bannana for food and be able to work the copper off the bat without wasting too many tiles. I also like your city site 1N of the stone.

 

[Erkon]

LC, just as a thought, what about putting a city just west of the copper? That would get the bannana for food and be able to work the copper off the bat without wasting too many tiles. I also like your city site 1N of the stone.

A city 1W of copper will not have enough health due to the jungle, so it can't grow much

 

[Murky]

A city 1W of copper will not have enough health due to the jungle, so it can't grow much

Ah, ya. What an ugly map.

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC, just as a thought, what about putting a city just west of the copper? That would get the bannana for food and be able to work the copper off the bat without wasting too many tiles. I also like your city site 1N of the stone.

W, NW (klarius), and S (BP) of Cu are all valuable port cities. W and NW have a lot of post-IW and enough food (NW has food now). S is a useful port to the S (d'oh). Erkon's and my sites are landlocked, which may be a drawback.

My main concern is how are we going to REX, as in Rapid EX? We want to conquer the world asap. Saladin has hammers to the S w/o jungle. Once we land on The Continent, we'll have GloryLand. So how do we get out of this Hole asap? I would think we'd want to be well on oour way before IW.

It's nice of us to share, so just to let you guys see things through my eyes, this is how I see our island:

 

[Murky]

We should try to maximize our early growth but also make the best use possible of this lsland. Crappy though it may be it is all ours.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I we should try to maximize our early growth but also make the best use possible of this lsland. Crappy though it may be it is all ours.

Exactly...

 

[Erkon]

I've done a bit excelling with the superior Copper Town a'la Erkon (1W of mountains).

Using LC's CT as reference I get
Pottery 1 turn earlier (19 more)
Gold City 2 turns later
Gold Mine 2 turns later
WB 8 turns later
one forest less (no chops at all)
one road more (1NW of mountain)
no warrior
MW and CT have same food storage and population and Copper is mined

EDIT: LC CT has a health cap of 3 while Erkon CT has 4 (that is then raised by the pig). This also means that settling 1W of copper is actually possible although we can't use the banana for a long time.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, I don't know what to do really with the different wishes of the other team members.
If we stay at high commerce pottery will come in in about 25 turns. According to LC we would then still have only one worker and probably send him on a trip to gold mine. No. My plan had pigs mined>bananas farmed>copper mined>chop>roading/gold mined AND wkr2 built around T25. Wkr1 develops all bonus tiles (except grass hill) before going to gold.

If we want a copper city first, we need another worker before a settler or our commerce will suck big time in the next 20-30 turns.
At the same time there is the wish to have a scouting work boat ASAP.

Ok, here my compromise plan:
Hand build settler, build Erkon copper city (will work only river grass to keep commerce high). Possibly best idea--not poprushing at pop2)
Grow capital to 3.
Pop-rush work boat with 1 turn to go and put overflow in worker. How about working pigs instead of grass/river?
Chop with switching to help the worker. To me, the whole idea of Copper City is to leverage coppermine asap. Otherwise, wouldn't the original wb>clam nets be our best leverage?
City built at turn 6.
Work boat at turn 15.
2nd worker turn 17.
Cities connected turn 15 (hopefully TW can finish in time).

Or you could go with your original plan, poprush Settler2 on T1...(Clams Drojf), and while growing to po2/3, you could build Wb2 for exploration instead of Warrior using pigs at pop2 instead of grass/river.

klarius, if I understand your tech formula right, for Pottery, with no AIs knowing it, we have have thresholds at 10, 13 and 15, right? (10*40% = 4, 13*40%=5, 15*40%=6) So you may be able to work pigs at pop2 and still make the 13 threshold and thus get the faster wb2.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I've done a bit excelling with the superior Copper Town a'la Erkon (1W of mountains).

Using LC's CT as reference I get
Pottery 1 turn earlier (19 more)
Gold City 2 turns later
Gold Mine 2 turns later
WB 8 turns later
one forest less (no chops at all)
one road more (1NW of mountain)
no warrior
MW and CT have same food storage and population and Copper is mined
Attacking Saladin on T187 <--Well this is what I was trying to avoid...

Looks pretty good. I'm still deeply troubled by having to chop that Obelisk and wait 15 turns for the border expansion, but whatever...

Doubt taht health cap will ever be an issue. We'll also get clams...and for now pop3 in CT is plenty.

So have we scrapped the idea of Stonehange? Where only the Real CT can build it in 12 turns...w/o chopping

 

[LowtherCastle]

never mind

 

[Erkon]

If we look beyond klarius turnset, we need to resolve the location of the gold city (1E of gold or 1SE of gold). We will also need to come to a joint view on warfare i.e. what units will we attack with, how many and whom? Then we will need to decide how far we need to research.

We can launch a couple of axes and wreck havock (pillage) without hurting our upkeep. If we're planning several galleys and perhaps 5-6 axes, then the upkeep/supply will damage our research.

I didn't get an invitation from Saladin, and I'm not planning to gate crash either. He's not a threat, and we can't use his cities as production centers since they are too far away from the action. We could keep them for research/resources though.

Instead I suggest that we attack Alex. We can then keep his cities and build units that goes directly into action at the large continent.

Saladin will not meet the others so he will not contribute with tech trade. Alex may. And if we manage to kill off him, the monopoly barrier raises for the other AI.

We can finish Saladin after the others, because he will not grow strong as quick as Alex and the others.

Of course, the above is pure speculation until we know the map, but I wanted to read it here first!

 

[Erkon]

Looks pretty good. I'm still deeply troubled by having to chop that Obelisk and wait 15 turns for the border expansion, but whatever...

Doubt taht health cap will ever be an issue. We'll also get clams...and for now pop3 in CT is plenty. - Exactly my point: health will not be a problem

So have we scrapped the idea of Stonehange? Where only the Real CT can build it in 12 turns...w/o chopping

We don't need an Obelisk with stonehenge as you state. And the Erkon CT can build it in 12 turns as well! 90 - 30 (remember, the forest is still there ) = 60 / 5 = 12. Nah nah nah nah nah nah!!! (this is becoming silly I know . Im just waiting for klarius to upload a save with a brilliant move that neither of us thought of! I don't expect anything less )

 

[klarius]

Well, I played . The save.

I implemented the connected Erkopper settling. I played 19 turns since I think we should discuss a little.

Summary:
Good:
We have a second connected city.
Everybody is reachable w/o astronomy.
Pottery will be done in 4 turns.
Barbs captured Persepolis.

Bad:
WW is over 50% and we cannot do anything about it. Don't dream of cities even size 5 or 6, it's more like 3-4 currently.
Probably no trade w/o astronomy (except Sal of course).

Spoiler my log :

Preflight:
Change research to wheel. Want to get some free beakers still in fishing and to judge better how long TW will take.

Turn 1 2500 (51) 50 or whatever:
Ok, TW will take 13 turns at the current rate. The game is correctly showing this.
I will have to put still a turn in fishing (at the last possibilty), but it's probably anyway 13 turns ith the increased research later.
It's 2 turns later than I wanted but we'll just live with it.
I stay on settler, not rushing.
It's definite now: we can get to the big continent by a cultural bridge in the west.

Turn 3 2440:
Change to fishing.

Turn 4 2410:
Settler finished-> work boat

Turn 6 2350:
After some more though I settle Erkopper. It's really just that 1 forested hill which is different.
It's faster connected and we can work river tiles, which the capital can probably never afford to work.
I set it to warrior, in case I don't find the time to build a unit in the capiatl and we should need it for WW.

Turn 7 2320:
All of a sudden everybody would like peace. They just want Erkopper.
I think no deal.

Turn 9 2260:
Ouch, we have 50% war weariness (1 red of 2 pop in capital). We lost a lot on Asoka.
This idiot has nothing to pillage (and still only one city). So our units just step in and suicides.

Turn 11 2200:
Oh barbs stay away from Delhi. They don't listen. If this continues at this rate (1-2 units lost per turn), we really need a junk city just to get peace. The others are currently less of a problem.
Had cancelled worker chop order last turn, now switched to worker and put the shields in it.
Continue work boat. Seems most people learned the wheel. We have it. Pottery is 13 turns currently.

Turn 14 2110:
Pop-rush work boat.

Turn 15 2080:
Barbs have captured Persepolis. Cyrus would make peace, but I stay at war currently, because I fear everybody will go to Delhi then and we lost already a lot there.

Turn 17 2020:
2 archers in Pasargadae. I make cease fire, as our axe cannot capture it (would be low probility anyway, but I would have tried).
Still WW is not away (I didn't really expect, it wasn't much fighting with Cyrus).
In other news. We can reach Quin, but it needs again a culture bridge (on an island NE).
So we can reach everybody w/o astronomy, but we cannot trade (ok haven't verified completely, but I see a pattern emerging).
Judaism FIADL (Saladin).

Turn 19 1960:
Barb science gives us hunting. Maybe we want to research the rest of AH soon, as we have at least a 50% bonus there.

Spoiler autolog :

Turn 52/660 (2470 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:13:11]

Turn 53/660 (2440 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:17:23]
Research begun: Fishing (1 Turns)
Tech learned: Fishing
Murky Waters finishes: Settler

Turn 54/660 (2410 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:22:49]
Research begun: The Wheel (10 Turns)
Murky Waters begins: Work Boat (12 turns)

Turn 55/660 (2380 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:30:37]

Turn 56/660 (2350 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:36:08]
Karakorum founded
Erkopper begins: Warrior (11 turns)
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 57/660 (2320 BC) [02-Aug-2007 19:51:13]
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 58/660 (2290 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:06:30]

Turn 59/660 (2260 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:13:10]

Turn 60/660 (2230 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:25:25]
Tech learned: The Wheel
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Asoka(India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 61/660 (2200 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:30:24]
Murky Waters begins: Worker (12 turns)
Research begun: Pottery (15 Turns)
Murky Waters begins: Work Boat (4 turns)

Turn 62/660 (2170 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:42:24]
Murky Waters grows: 3
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 63/660 (2140 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:49:38]

Turn 64/660 (2110 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:53:41]
Murky Waters finishes: Work Boat
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 65/660 (2080 BC) [02-Aug-2007 20:59:30]
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 66/660 (2050 BC) [02-Aug-2007 21:07:27]
Murky Waters finishes: Worker

Turn 67/660 (2020 BC) [02-Aug-2007 21:15:22]
Murky Waters begins: Warrior (6 turns)
Judaism founded in a distant land
Tech learned: Hunting
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Temujin(Mongolia), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 68/660 (1990 BC) [02-Aug-2007 21:32:09]
State Religion Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Judaism'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 69/660 (1960 BC) [02-Aug-2007 21:39:03]

Spoiler approximate losses :

Qin 5 - no big problem
Toku 3 - should have reduced the (high) WW count with him a bit
Asoka 14 ! that's the problem
Saladin 4 - no big problem
Isa 3 - no problem
Cyrus - 5 and cease fire currently no problem
Alex -0

Ok what next?

When pottery comes in we can build granaries and I think we should.
I think we should do a quick run for AH after pottery. Maybe there are horses somewhere.

The warriors should obviously complete as our WW is already bad and we cannot afford safety crybabies.

But the point why I stopped here is:
There are currently quite a few axes near Cyrus' city. Do we redeclare and hope they finish him off. This will piss off Asoka besides Cyrus, the others don't mind.

 

[Murky]

Stonehenge isn't all that unreasonable. We should at least do the calculations for getting mysticism & masonry then decide where we could build it. It may prove to be more efficient than chopping obelisk. Given all the jungle and the chopping nerf, we may not want to chop too much early on.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Excellent work, klarius! Lucky you! You got to witness a city capture. I still haven't in any of my tests...

Erkopper. What a name! The original copper.

Obviously, we need to settle Gold City asap for the extra happy.

I say we absolutely let the axes attack Cyrus. Why i nthe world did we bee-line BW if we're not going whole hog here. Wipe his mangy ass off the planet.

 

[Murky]

Summary:
Good:
We have a second connected city.
Everybody is reachable w/o astronomy.
Pottery will be done in 4 turns.
Barbs captured Persepolis.

Bad:
WW is over 50% and we cannot do anything about it. Don't dream of cities even size 5 or 6, it's more like 3-4 currently.
Probably no trade w/o astronomy (except Sal of course).

Nice turnset.

 

[klarius]

Well, maybe the barbs will build Stonehenge in Persepolis . That would be the city to do it. BTW that's also a danger. In one of my tests I wanted to build a wonder, but barbs had already started it in some fishing village, with no chance to complete. Then one cannot build it.

But another question, if we really think about going wonder happy, how about Pyramids. The representation, hereditary rule or police state would be really a big thing.

I think we cannot really afford to go for domination w/o astronomy. Our commerce will stink the whole game with no good trade routes.
And astronomy is not needed for conquest ...

Another thing:
Should we try to get peace with Asoka for a junk city. It should probably have resources, so the AI values it. Something like a bananas or dyes in jungle, which they anyway will not access before we take the city back.
Delhi is a real pain to watch.