SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

...
Qin is a non-issue. Isolated, with terrible land to the north. We won't need to worry much about him.
...
Why not work the gold? Thats 7 gpt that we are throwing away. - will be changed at T0
...

Unless there is a connection from Qin capital to the continent. There is an island in between, so it is not unreasonable. This would enable him to trade tech, and we don't want that. We have to check the diplomatic screen regularly for Qin-Cyrus/Alex contact. There is also a chance/risk that he will build a wonder that we want . But I agree that he is not a threat per se.

 

[jesusin]

Gone sir, disappears. Perhaps they're there again when we reconnect?

Yes, they are again. Normal decay rate.

 

[jesusin]

I don't expect to see keshicks this game. HBR would take long to research and I don't think we should. An Axe will arrive to the continent quicker than a keshick at the moment.

 

[jesusin]

Regarding excel B5PLAN

1.- Food in AG14. No consequences.
2.- I don't think putting EK's Obelisk overflow (8h) into settler is a good idea (although it is a very clever trick sometimes). If we don't, we lose 8h in settler, win 8h in barracks, grow 1 turn sooner giving 4 free hammers on settler. The other 4 hammers were not needed, so we end up with the settler the very same turn and we win 4 hammers.
3.- Half of EK's final whip gets wasted.

I have redone EK excel, delaying the whipping there in order to make better use of resource tiles. Please take a look at it. It gets settler 2 2 turns sooner, city can be gifted 1 turn sooner (with 12 culture) or on the same turn building 1 additional warrior.



I have tried not to affect MW. Maybe affecting it is better for both cities! I ahven't done that work yet, I want your opinion on EK first. At the final turns I had to affect MW, marked in yellow, not done the excel for it but the settler should be done in the same turn.

 

[Gnejs]

I don't expect to see keshicks this game. HBR would take long to research and I don't think we should. An Axe will arrive to the continent quicker than a keshick at the moment.

I thought so too, at first. But I think that HBR can be researched in at about the same time as we make the cultural connection to the main continent. The Keshiks obviously move at twice the Axe speed over land. On sea it is equal, but I'd rather build Keshiks than Galleys.

 

[Erkon]

They don't give awards for the most thread posts.

They don't? What the heck?! Now, what medal did BP win then?

 

[klarius]

I have redone EK excel, delaying the whipping there in order to make better use of resource tiles. Please take a look at it. It gets settler 2 2 turns sooner, city can be gifted 1 turn sooner (with 12 culture) or on the same turn building 1 additional warrior.

If you gift EK with less than 15 culture, we have to redo the obelisk for culture expansion (hills). I don't think a warrior one turn later than LCs charts is worth that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I have redone EK excel, delaying the whipping there in order to make better use of resource tiles. Please take a look at it. It gets settler2 2 turns sooner, city can be gifted 1 turn sooner (with 12 culture) or on the same turn building 1 additional warrior.

sry --crosspost with klarius

That looks like a good plan, jesusin.

My primary goal for EK was to expand its borders b4 gifting it to Asoka so we wouldn't need to build the obelisk again. With IW, EK will be able to produce 11/turn at pop4 (even w/o the Iron that will show up in its fat cross ), but we need to expand its borders for that.

If we're not going to expand its borders, it might make more sense to T0 build and T1 poprush an axeman, then gift EK on T2.

 

[Erkon]

Time to make up our mind(s). <drum rolls>

Please vote for the candidate city-gift-strategy that you think best matches your ideas how this game shall be played the next turn set. To reduce confusion from previous posts, I've tagged each candidate with an ID:

Nisse: Build junk city to Toku and gift on turn ~5. Gift EK to Asoka on turn ~2.
Kalle: Build junk city to Toku and gift on turn ~5. Gift EK to Asoka on turn ~16.
Orvar: Build junk city to Toku and gift on turn ~5. Gift QG/EK to Asoka on turn ~15/17
​

Unless we run into devastating disagreement, we'll take the final decision in 24 hours, and spend another day to iron out the details. Thus, jesusin can start his play in 48 hours.

Please refer to previous posts regarding the consequences of the different candidates (if you manage to tell the difference, please inform me so that I know what to vote for).

You're of course allowed to change your vote as many times as you want. The latest post within the timelimit will count. To reduce the risk of mis votes, why not update your signature?* jesusin will decide in case of a draw.

All kind of propaganda, persuasions, threats, promises and shady deals are allowed and welcomed (within the limits stated in my Rules and Regulations )

I hereby denounce all responsibility for the stated turns. It's up to jesusin to make sure that the choice of the team is fulfilled. Good luck!



* Example: Erkon votes for <candidate>**


** The text <candidate> should be interpreted as a wild card expression, representing any of the three candidates.

 

[klarius]

I thought so too, at first. But I think that HBR can be researched in at about the same time as we make the cultural connection to the main continent. The Keshiks obviously move at twice the Axe speed over land. On sea it is equal, but I'd rather build Keshiks than Galleys.

HBR can only arrive around the time we have bridges, if we don't research IW, which we also want to hack jungle.
Then we still have to build the Keshiks.

 

[klarius]

Well, I don't vote.
I think this is an SG not a democracy game .
I prefer, Kalle, but I'm OK with all tree selections, if executed fine (no doubt about that ).

 

[Murky]

They don't? What the heck?! Now, what medal did BP win then?

I looked but couldn't find any medals given for thread posts.

 

[Big Pig]

They don't? What the heck?! Now, what medal did BP win then?

Best captain award.

I doubt my title will be in danger any time soon

 

[Murky]

Best captain award.

I doubt my title will be in danger any time soon

Congrats on your award BP. Welcome back.

 

[Erkon]

Best captain award.

*crap*

Nah, must have been the most-posts award...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Feeling sorry for jesusin since he has to make all unilateral decisions in his upcoming SG turnset...I have made my little attempt to help: 3 charts: Kalle, Orvar-QG, and Orvar-EK. Some interesting and unexpected consequences cropped up during this exercise, aside from making any choice.

General notes and observations:

• Kalle and Orvar-EK needed a 3rd worker before the 3rd settler to re-mine the gold. (Wkr1 went to chop the rice jungle)
• In Kalle and Orvar-EK I pastured the pigs, because EK was hogging the bananas after recapture.
• I made either 5 warriors or 4 warriors and 1 chariot, depending on when the copper hammers were pounding.
• I made basically the same thing in each scenario to keep things comparable, i.e., 1 more wkr, a 3rd settler, 2 galleys, and no swords, since we don't know when and if we get iron, and as many axes as possible.
• I ran the charts to about T50, to get a feel for where this thing might go.

Kalle T50 Summary:

• EK gifted T16
• BBW expands T48/49, 1st axe pair can cross channel T50
• 1 new wkr T18
• 5 warriors
• 2 galleys (T13, T48)
• 3.75 axes (T45, T46, T47)
• 1 chariot (T50)
• pigs pasteurized
• QG settled T37> expands T62
• QG has empty granary, pop1,
• MW 12t to 90-popr
• EK 9t to 90-popr
• QG 7t to 45-popr

Orvar-QG T50 Summary:

• QG gifted T15, recaptured T25, expands T48
• BBW expands T53, axe piillagers can cross same turn
• 1 new wkr T31
• 4 warriors
• 2 galleys (T12, T23)
• 5.5 axes (T37, T45, T47, T48, T48)
• 2 chariot (T37, T41)
• QG has full granary, 1t to pop2, wb2(40/45)
• MW 1t to 90-popr
• EK11t to 90-popr
• QG 11t to 90-popr

Orvar-EK T50 Summary:

• EK gifted T17, recaptured T27
• BBW expands T55, units cross same turn
• 1 new wkr T20
• 4 warriors
• 1.95 galleys (T12, T51)
• 4.95 axes (T41, T42, T47, T48, T51)
• 1 chariot (T44)
• QG expanded T38
• QG has 2 nets, full granary, pop4 popr this turn to complete galley3 and barracks in 2 turns
• MW has barracks
• MW 5t to 90-popr
• EK11t to 90-popr
• QG 90-popr this turn

Assumptions:

• I assumed that DoP with Toku would get us under 100% WW. (time will tell)
• I assumed that DoP with both would get us under 67% if not 50%.

Comments:

• The early worker in Kalle and Orvar-EK may come in handy if we strike iron in the MW/EK metropolis.
• Both Orvars have earlier pillaging pairs available (T37 and T42 versus T46).
• I knew that Orvar-QG was more productive, but my big concern was: "what if Orvar-EK?" This turned out to be doable, but the MM was an extreme puzzle for me--a couple times I thought it was unsolvable (for example, getting wkr3 out in time for gold mining and still getting Settler3 out fast for BBW).
• QG in Kalle is lagging way behind.
• No matter which path we take, like it or not, the MM will make or break us. Anything close to an optimum path resembles an MM labyrinth. There are many, many dead-ends lurking.

 

[jesusin]

I am sorry, I am completely lost now.

#1: LC offers 3 charts. Captain says to vote between 3 names. Then LC offer us 20 different charts, all of them unnamed, and makes a benchmark between the far far away future of 3 new options, different from the first 3 ones

#2 Culture in EK. In post 886 I am said we need 12 culture minimum. Then now I am said it requires 15 culture. 12 culture is for keeping the granary we are not building anymore, right? 15 culture is for keeping the Obelisk, right? An Obelisk that we could leisurely build when we retake EK because we will then have 1pop and low WW.

#3 Because of the previous point, I start to appreciate EK gifting in T2, not building any building. But then, how are we retaking the city? We need to wait to pop2, right? That's not the 10 turns shown in the charts!


May I ask for a simple text description of the 3 options we are considering? Something like "Obelisk-Granary-gifted-retaken 10 turns later".

 

[Gnejs]

Unless there is a connection from Qin capital to the continent. There is an island in between, so it is not unreasonable. This would enable him to trade tech, and we don't want that. We have to check the diplomatic screen regularly for Qin-Cyrus/Alex contact. There is also a chance/risk that he will build a wonder that we want . But I agree that he is not a threat per se.

Yes, that is a risk of course. But until then he will clearly research slower than Saladin who already has four cities and no barbarians to worry about. Even if he makes the connection he won't be able to trade tech if he is has nothing to trade...

 

[Gnejs]

I am also a little lost regarding the alternatives. They seem very well analyzed by now, though, so perhaps it is possible to for someone to answer these questions for me:

#1: On what turn will our two first units reach the first city on the main continent?

#2: On what turn will we land the fourth unit on Saladins land?

#3: On what turn will our first two units reach one of Qins cities?

Units here could be Axes, Swords, or Keshiks. I am confident that 2 of either will be enough to take a non-hill city defended by one archer.


I vote for whichever alternative that fulfills #1 first. In case of a tie, check #2, then #3 etc.

 

[Gnejs]

HBR can only arrive around the time we have bridges, if we don't research IW, which we also want to hack jungle.
Then we still have to build the Keshiks.

Yes, if we go the Keshik road we should switch to HBR now. Do we really need to hack any jungle? We could settle the Western bridge on top of the rice, saves us a bunch of worker turns there. In my view this city only needs to produce an obelisk anyway. Once we have a foothold of a city or two on the main continent we can even give it away.

The first pair of Keshiks can be whipped on the turn we discover HBR.

The main drawback of this strategy is that it delays Swordsmen. But Keshiks/barb Horse Archers also have their strengths so it is not a disaster.