SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[klarius]

#2 Culture in EK. In post 886 I am said we need 12 culture minimum. Then now I am said it requires 15 culture. 12 culture is for keeping the granary we are not building anymore, right? 15 culture is for keeping the Obelisk, right? An Obelisk that we could leisurely build when we retake EK because we will then have 1pop and low WW.

12 culture is for keeping the granary (for sure instead of crap shot) that is already in EK.
15 culture is for culture expansion to not have to rebuild the obelisk. The obelisk vanishes in any case but our culture expansion stays.
Also 12 or 15 culture reduces anarchy after retaking from 3 to 1 turn.

#3 Because of the previous point, I start to appreciate EK gifting in T2, not building any building. But then, how are we retaking the city? We need to wait to pop2, right? That's not the 10 turns shown in the charts!

No we never have to wait for EK to grow. It was already size 2 obviously as it is now.
Fact:
No city will autoraze, if it ever was size 2 or bigger. That's how it works in CIV, no matter what other rumors tell.
Waiting for size 2 would only apply to cities gifted immediately at size 1.

Edit:
Well, to make things more complicated. There is still my very first idea:
Gift EK turn 0. We don't get anything for our pop point and waste the shields on obelisk. But we have EK back the earliest possible turn.
Use first settler for a gate and ignore Toku, or try Toku gifting after EK.

The only problem with that was that LC says it would set us back to far if we lose the granary. That's how the variants with later gifting of EK came about.

 

[Big Pig]

I am sorry, I am completely lost now.

#1: LC offers 3 charts. Captain says to vote between 3 names. Then LC offer us 20 different charts, all of them unnamed, and makes a benchmark between the far far away future of 3 new options, different from the first 3 ones

I think Sheet 2 in LCs (latest) chart gives the MM charts for 1. Kalle; 2. Orvar (and Asoka accepts QG); 3. Orvar (and Asoka accepts EK after rejecting QG) (from L to R). There is no chart for Nisse - presumably testing has shown this option to be less ideal.

In view of the results of all LC's untiring work it appears that Orvar (aka build QG and try to gift it to Asoka) is the best of the options and has my vote

Also many thanks to LC for running all these various combinations and permutations

 

[klarius]

Ok, another completely different plan incorporating HBR (no spreadsheets just judging).
Go HBR.
Gift EK to Toku T0 (after pillaging copper).
Pop-rush settler in MW T0. Walks to rice tile west. Gets it's obelisk around T18. Culture bridge around T33.
MW builds QG settler, galleys and barracks in the time to HBR (maybe another worker, garrison warriors or whatever needed also).
T11 retake EK and gift immediately to Asoka.
T22 retake EK and hopefully free peace with Toku.
T25 EK out of anarchy, but probably lacking granary.
T28 free peace with Asoka.
EK can rebuild a bit until HBR arrives (~T30). But the first units on main land are probably only a spear and a Keshik. If all works out fine we combine our forces with the barbs on Izzy then.
Harassing forces for Qin come (slowly) out of Qin gate. For Saladin out of Drojf.

 

[jesusin]

Thank you, Klarius. Much clearer now.

Erkon, is Klarius last post a 4th option? Then I would like to see a 5th one, is the same as Klarius plan but we don't research HBR but IW. IW is important for unconnecting AI metals (intelligence).

Klarius 4th option is clearly explained. Could we have the first 3 options equally clearly explained? Pretty please?

 

[jesusin]

LC, I see the 8h overflow from Obelisk keep going to Settler, not to barracks. Try the other way around, you'll find it's better.

Thank you for your excels, I enjoy them as much as playing the game. I don't mind being your robot and playing my turnset following spreadsheet instructions. bip bip.

 

[klarius]

LC, I see the 8h overflow from Obelisk keep going to Settler, not to barracks. Try the other way around, you'll find it's better.

Well, jesusin, you have to be sure on T3 that you get peace with Toku on T4 in your way. That's not guaranteed (he could just settle his 4th city then).

 

[Gnejs]

Ok, another completely different plan incorporating HBR (no spreadsheets just judging).
Go HBR.
Gift EK to Toku T0 (after pillaging copper).
Pop-rush settler in MW T0. Walks to rice tile west. Gets it's obelisk around T18. Culture bridge around T33.
MW builds QG settler, galleys and barracks in the time to HBR (maybe another worker, garrison warriors or whatever needed also).
T11 retake EK and gift immediately to Asoka.
T22 retake EK and hopefully free peace with Toku.
T25 EK out of anarchy, but probably lacking granary.
T28 free peace with Asoka.
EK can rebuild a bit until HBR arrives (~T30). But the first units on main land are probably only a spear and a Keshik. If all works out fine we combine our forces with the barbs on Izzy then.
Harassing forces for Qin come (slowly) out of Qin gate. For Saladin out of Drojf.

Klarius, that is an excellent summary! This is precisely what I had in mind.

I guess you are right that we won't be able to produce Keshik #2 until some turns later. But then I would rather send a chariot than a spear. The chariot should eventually get Medic I.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I am sorry, I am completely lost now.

#1: LC offers 3 charts. Captain says to vote between 3 names. Then LC offer us 20 different charts, all of them unnamed, and makes a benchmark between the far far away future of 3 new options, different from the first 3 ones

OMG!!! OMFG!!! SOrry, jesusin. I meant to send you only the chart with the 3 possibilities (Excel sheet 2). Instead I sent the whole thing I've been doing. If you looked at Sheet 1, you're in for a MAJOR HEADACHE. Even I can hardly understand that. When you first open up the Excel chart, it opens to Sheet 2. Stay there and don't bother with Sheet 1 (unless you're a masochist.)

On Excel Sheet 2 youwill find exactly what BP described above. FIrst I did kalle. THen I did Orgar. I had to do two for Orgar because we don't know if Asoka will accept QG. So I did an Orgar for Asoka accepting QG and one for him accepting EK.

My benchmark goes into the future, because otherwise you can't really compare teh options. In fact, doing such, enables to answer Gnejs' questions.

 

[Gnejs]

In fact, doing such, enables to answer Gnejs' questions.

Great! So why haven't you given me the answers yet?

j/k

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC, I see the 8h overflow from Obelisk keep going to Settler, not to barracks. Try the other way around, you'll find it's better.

Thank you for your excels, I enjoy them as much as playing the game. I don't mind being your robot and playing my turnset following spreadsheet instructions. bip bip.

Well, it's either too early in the AMerican morning for me or I've gone brain-dead, probably the latter. Anyway, I couldn't find it on the first quick try. What I'm trying to achieve is get the settler to QG at the earliest possible turn. To make it simple: I have the Settler in the galley, leaving on T12.

Then I grow back to pop2 in EK asap and popr barracks on T16. I can't find a way to grow to pop2 faster.

--------------

Before I had settler done on T11, but then galley was done on T13. That settles QG 1 turn later. Is that the scenario you're talking about?

 

[Erkon]

...
Erkon, is Klarius last post a 4th option? Then I would like to see a 5th one, is the same as Klarius plan but we don't research HBR but IW. IW is important for unconnecting AI metals (intelligence).

Klarius 4th option is clearly explained. Could we have the first 3 options equally clearly explained? Pretty please?

No, klarius #4 will not be included in the upcoming vote, since I don't want to introduce further confusion . As stated in the announcement: "Please vote for the candidate city-gift-strategy that you think best matches your ideas how this game shall be played the next turn set". The purpose with the vote is to get a general feeling what the team wants. If players thinks #4 and #5 is better (or should be included in a vote), then we can't pass the "Unless we run into devastating disagreement..."-criteria and we'll run one more round (hopefully removing one or two unpopular candidates). So, if you (or anyone else) thinks that neither candidate is preferable, please abstain your vote and state why. Don't vote if you don't feel comfortable with it .

Just to make sure I am not misinterpreted: It is NOT my intention to force a decision, and it is NOT my intention to reject any ideas or plans (good or bad). My intention with the vote is to speed up the decision process. We have spent 16 pages (~320 posts) discussing this (critical) turn set. That's more than several teams posted in total in SGOTM4 The only decision we have taken so far is that we will gift at least one city to Toku or Asoka .

Pages 40 and 43 contains lots of various alternatives for the Nisse, Kalle and Orvar. Then LC has further variants in his spreadsheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5821738&postcount=936) and LC's post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5815423&postcount=909) illustrates culture expansion dates. It is intentional that I didn't put more details into the candidates, since I don't want us to get stuck in that discussion. I have not included research for example.

jesusin, if you're still not happy with this clarification, please state so

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

I like Klarius guideline for the next turnset - and I'll vote for it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

#1: On what turn will our two first units reach the first city on the main continent?

#2: On what turn will we land the fourth unit on Saladins land?

#3: On what turn will our first two units reach one of Qins cities?

Units here could be Axes, Swords, or Keshiks.

Great! So why haven't you given me the answers yet?

ANswers aren't the problem, it's your questions.

Is each possibility the first invasion force? (#1--> 2 axes on continent, -or- #2--> 4 axes to Sal, -or- #3--> 2 axes to Qin)

 

[Erkon]

LC, in cell E25 (Sheet2) in your excel chart, you have built a warrior with 37 overflow into the next turn. I thought 15 if these will be converted to , not into . Or am I mixing up vanilla with warlords?

 

[LowtherCastle]

We have spent 16 pages (~320 posts) discussing this (critical) turn set. That's more than several teams posted in total in SGOTM4

Are you comparing us to losers?!?!?!?​

Well, we hit over 4000 posts in our Russian thread

I personally find the Gnejs-provoked klarius variant enticing and plan to test it out this morning, so there! Besides...

I am glad we are undecided yet, as it allows me to think it all over again. WARNING: jesusin will always vote for one more day for thinking before taking an important decision. Always. Even the following day!

Methinks we're testing Erkon's patience to the limit...

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC, in cell E25 (Sheet2) in your excel chart, you have built a warrior with 37 overflow into the next turn. I thought 15 if these will be converted to , not into . Or am I mixing up vanilla with warlords?

Help, anyone?!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Can someone check the save to see how many turns till HBR, starting now and working the gold in Drojf?

 

[Erkon]

Are you comparing us to losers?!?!?!?​

- Hey, we lost the game too, wiseguy! Better stop this discussion, since klarius has not completed SGOTM4 yet...

I personally find the Gnejs-provoked klarius variant enticing and plan to test it out this morning, so there! Besides...Methinks we're testing Erkon's patience to the limit...

Methinks I will switch from Free Speech to Police State...

 

[Erkon]

Can someone check the save to see how many turns till HBR, starting now and working the gold in Drojf?

It's pretty hard to estimate the turn correct if we have to take city gifting into account. HBR is 25% more expensive than IW, so klarius guess at turn ~30 is reasonable. Perhaps earlier unless unit upkeep kicks in.

 

[Gnejs]

ANswers aren't the problem, it's your questions.

Is each possibility the first invasion force? (#1--> 2 axes on continent, -or- #2--> 4 axes to Sal, -or- #3--> 2 axes to Qin)

No, all three forces could be sent in any possible order. We need to invade in all three directions, I just considered #1 to be most important. This does not necessarily mean that it will happen first, just that the turn when we achieve #1 is more critical than the turn when we achieve #2 and #3.

In other words, just optimize your sheet for #1. If there are more than one way to achieve #1 in about the same time frame, then check which strategy _additionally_ fulfills #2 first, etc for #3. Please.