SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

I will be away and w/o internet access for most of the next 11 days. Try not to do anything I wouldn't and make sure we have a coherent plan!

and good riddance.
Bon vojage, BP! I appreciate all your discussion, as usual, but with BP leaving and Gnejs returning, I guess it's time for the inevitable. Our new plan is to:

1. Settle copper.
2. Research Sailing
3. Wipe Sal off the map.

Damn, BP,I thought you said you'd gone for 11 days...lol

 

[Murky]

I will be away and w/o internet access for most of the next 11 days. Try not to do anything I wouldn't and make sure we have a coherent plan!

Don't let LC do anything too stupid (D'Oh!! - too late)

BP

Have a good trip BP. We'll keep LC under close supervision.

 

[Erkon]

Well, if you want me to hack my trees and don't build roads, I could just do the queue switching to put the chop into the settler while growing from 2 to 3.
It's vanilla so we don't lose a turn on growth by that.
Then the second forest can be hacked while building the settler.
If we finish with a pop-rush then, we will have used less than 10 turns for the settler and can indeed build a wb before and finish after w/o losing hammers.

One road will save the settler one turn of movement, so that may be worthwhile. Else you need three roads to save two turns of movement, which I doubt is worthwhile.

There are two things that concerns me in general with the early phase of this game*. The first is research commerce: is more important the ) and the second is exploration. The more we know about our environment, the less is the risk that we take/grab/make a critical mistake that will loose us a laurel... That is why I want a second WB asap.

60 from chop now is much more valuable than 90 100 turns from now.

 

[klarius]

If I don't hack, but road, I expect to be able to road through the jungle to Drojf by the time the (delayed) settler comes out. That should save 3-4 turns on the settler movement and gives a pair of trade routes.

 

[Erkon]

If I don't hack, but road, I expect to be able to road through the jungle to Drojf by the time the (delayed) settler comes out. That should save 3-4 turns on the settler movement and gives a pair of trade routes.

If you manage that, then it's much better. Will you play tonight?

 

[klarius]

Yes, I intend to play, if nobody comes up with another smart idea needing discussion by then (maybe three hours from now).

And as I downloaded the save already before going to work :

I got it!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Erkon, what's our turnset-length policy? Or are we just winging it? Not much is happening yet, so 20 might still be good, but eventually we'll want to bring it back to 10, right? I didn't notice anything in your rules and regs. Of course, my list stops at Rule 35,695.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thoughts:

• We need to follow Obormot Rule No. 1: Grow pop to use all resources, poprush pop beyond that. I.e., we don't want to poprush MW below pop2 any more.
• I'd like to discuss just a bit if Clam Drojf is really our best choice right now.

 

[Erkon]

Erkon, what's our turnset-length policy? Or are we just winging it? Not much is happening yet, so 20 might still be good, but eventually we'll want to bring it back to 10, right? I didn't notice anything in your rules and regs. Of course, my list stops at Rule 35,695.

To me, it's more important that a turn set ends when something needs to be discussed at this stage of the game, but you are correct that we're targeting 10 turns eventually. My Directives are complementing the guide by the administrators, as I didn't see any reason to come up with new rules

The turnsets shall not be longer than what is covered by our discussions, and we also want to utilize the hive brain for clever stuff.

I think it is up to klarius to end between turn 15 and 20, and then we'll keep to 10-15 for a while.

 

[Erkon]

Thoughts:

• We need to follow Obormot Rule No. 1: Grow pop to use all resources, poprush pop beyond that. I.e., we don't want to poprush MW below pop2 any more.
• I'd like to discuss just a bit if Clam Drojf is really our best choice right now.

I agree that we should avoid whipping below pop2.

Please present your thoughts about Clam/Stone Drojf

 

[klarius]

Well, we are at turn 49 currently according to the official counting, probably because somebody has put the rule out to have starting turn = 1 set. Do we try to get in line with the official count for even numbers again?

 

[Erkon]

Well, we are at turn 49 currently according to the official counting, probably because somebody who is very clever has put the rule out to have starting turn = 1 set. Do we try to get in line with the official count for even numbers again?

I think it is more important that we end turnsets when it is suitable for discussion/game play than sticking to even numbers, but I am open to suggestions. I want people to be comfortable with their play and not feel that they have to abort in the middle of something that is very close to finish.

 

[klarius]

I think it is more important that we end turnsets when it is suitable for discussion/game play than sticking to even numbers, but I am open to suggestions. I want people to be comfortable with their play and not feel that they have to abort in the middle of something that is very close to finish.

Generally I agree, but that was probably not the reason why LC played exactly 19 turns .
Usually many of teams go back to 10 increments in the official counts when there isn't anything crucial and that makes it easier to compare to other teams (not that we would need to compare - we know we are the best )

 

[LowtherCastle]

Settlement choices

1. Copper City
   • 3 turns to settle
   • +2:commerce at pop1, starting T3 (after settler built)
   • 7 at pop2
   • protects copper from jungle
   • can produce axes
   • wkr turns required: 8(farm)+mv+6(copper)+mv+11(hill mine)=27turns
   • put into barracks while growing
   • frees up wb for exploration
   • ties up wkr1
2. Clam Drojf
   • 5 turns to sette
   • +2:commerce at pop1, starting T5 (after settler built)
   • produces wkr2 in 18turns
   • needs lh to be effective commerce city
   • needs masonry quarry stone
   • could be used for 45:hammer poprush every 15 turns
   • w/granary & lh can poprush galley every 15t
3. Gold City - both sites 8 turns to settle
   +6w/gold mine, starting T16 (after settler built) -- TOO SLOW

 

[LowtherCastle]

It must have been BP who played 29, actually, because I started at 30/660 and ended at 50/660. Not that I give a hoot...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay I've been donig a bit of a comparision. Coppertown can build us a wkr about 5 turns sooner than Clam Drojf if we mine the copper first and then chop. Farming the grass instead of chopping, the wkr is still a couple turns faster and then we get Copper City fully functional (w/barracks) about 32 turns after settling on T4; producing axes every 6 1/2 turns.

The catch is that we don't have wkr1 to chop out the next settler in MW.

I'm not sure Copper City first is better, but my concern is twofold: 1) losing the copper to jungle and 2) Clam Drojf being a dead-end city commerce-wise (w/o lh it stops growing). It can produce its 2/turn and poprush 45 avery 15t. Is that what we need?

EDIT: They key here is that the copper is a +6 bonus tile, the clams only +4 (in terms of bldg wkrs/settlers). This way we prioritize our best bonuses. The coin yield is the same as far I can see it. The basic trade-off choice is, do we:

Use the wb to free up wkr1 or for exploration?

 

[Erkon]

The clam city is not a commercial dead end. It starts at 3 gpt, and another +2 gpt for each pop. We cannot afford the copper city.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The clam city is not a commercial dead end. It starts at 3 gpt, and another +2 gpt for each pop. We cannot afford the copper city.

I love hate to disagree. Clam City starts at +2 (3 - 1 (maint)). Then at pop 2 you get +1 (+2 - 1:commerce (dist cost)). furthermore, w/o the lh, which we can't build for an eon, the pop grows slower...and slower...and.......slower.

The only argument in favor that I can see is kl's discussion on the 15 pottery bonus, because at pop1, Copper City has to choose between getting that bonus (working the grass) or not (working the copper mine). Correct me if I'm wrong, klarius. Furthermore, I'm not sure how Copper City responds to the distance cost at pop2.

Btw, instead of wkr2, Copper City can build settler3 on roughly T23 with 2 chops.

In short, there are a few combinations here that bear looking into, if you ask me, because I haven't even looked at what we might be doing in MW during this time...

EDIT: Also bear in mind that there's only so much effective work the wkr can do right now. The MW chops will be more or less equally useful during this 20 turns or the next. The gains from the copper mine are cumulative.

EDIT2: May I take just a moment to LOL, Erkon: Weren't you the one who want to explore so much...

 

[klarius]

Which copper city.

Edit:
OK, seems to be the distance 4 one. Maintenance 0 at size 1, 1 at size 2 and 2 at size 3 and 4, while distance 7 is 1, 2, 2, 3.

Edit2:
And both go in fact down in maintenance @ size 2+ when we settle our 3rd city.

 

[Erkon]

...EDIT2: May I take just a moment to LOL, Erkon: Weren't you the one who want to explore so much...

Ok, ok, I get it. Man, why do you complicate things with coming up with good ideas? At least they're better than mine

Ok, klarius, LC just threw a spanner into our thinking machinery. I can't find any flaw, can you?