SGOTM 05 - Trash Team

[cabert]

cannot open the save right now, and the report is a bit "light", so I need to guess a bit, but it seems to me that saladin is toast .
There is wine next to mecca, that could help us a bit in the happy departement + HR is certainly a big boost in this area.
So I suggest going straight to monarchy.

 

[remconius]

After construction, I picked monarchy. It should be in in less than 10 turns.

Saladin's capital is ours. He has two cities left which are 50% ice. We need assess if these cities meet our criteria to join military production (food resource and some hills) otherwise they should be razed.

Roster

Remconius (just played)
cabert (UP)
Cam_H (on deck for the weekend)
Stuge
patagonia

Lurking: Pigswill


Grand Strategy

Given the fact that both Alex and Qin require a culture bridge to reach us, we should be save from them until astronomy. (unless they accidently make their own culture bridge, which we should then raze). Right now it's a perfect defense line of ocean tiles!

This means we can safely go west, building a culture bridge to the island and set up a supply line of Keshiks to the main continent. This way we can avoid bringing Alex and Qin into the war, because they can't reach us. Also our own defense is a matter of some ships to intercept incoming galleys from the main continent.

Let's plan a number of cities. We have 5, and can fit another 2-4 on our and Saladin's continent. One of these cities should bridge the gap to the west. As the cities are under influence of WW, we might need more small ones compactly spaced.

Then we could build a forward base on the island linking us to the continent. From there we can launch the attack and take over the entire continent. If needed we can take Alex afterwards.

We probably only need a handful of galleys and start building keshiks to kick archer ass. Dealing with spearmen or archers on a hill can be done with catapults and axes. Honestly I would rather use only keshiks as this will give us much more speed digging through the continent. Dealing with tough defenders means throwing low xp keshiks at them as cannon fodder to weaken defenders. Then the promoted Keshiks can defeat them.

What I am unsure about is how much of commercial base we need to pay for all this. As we dont need science at a certain point, providing cottages to our capital and grassland cities could be enough. War money will pay for the rest. If the occasion allows we could even try to get the barbarians to take cities. That would be cheaper.

I dont think we should wait too long. The AI are busy fending off raging barbarians. I've seen a lot of pillaging which is hurting the AI.

 

[stuge]

I've got my comp back into shape now.

I agree with attacking the main continent ASAP. Qin and Alex should be easy to clear off once we've taken out the major players. That means our next settled cities should go towards the culture bridge. Supportive cities can be set up afterwards. Once we get Keshiks there we can first kill AI teching by pillaging everything and then start taking cities when we have enough troops in place.

EDIT: The west goes dotmap.

 

[remconius]

Good to see you are back, Stuge. Let's hope we get our former captain back also.

I like the suggestion of pillaging. With a culture bridge in place we should ship about 6 keshiks. In pairs of 2 they can be sent to Cyrus, Isa and Toku. We are at war already anyway...!

 

[patagonia]

Since we're going to be attacking by galley, I suggest heading straight for the main continent too once we've finished off Sally. I'd keep Mecca, but raze everything else as the supply lines and maintenance will be a drag. If they want to, the barbs can settle the rest of his island.

It makes sense to dump our forces straight by the AI capitals. Losing them will severely hinder their development and make them more likely to agree to a peace deal. Keshiks can then fan out from there to raze and pillage.

In terms of tech, we need monarchy, calendar, construction, col and drama(possibly currency too) before we can stop. Are the laurels for earliest win full-stop, or for domination or conquest? If we're after domination the main island should bring us up to the land limit and running 2 caste-system merchants everywhere is a good way to approximate the infinite city sleaze this early in the game (courthouses should be choppable for the most part). I still think conquest would be quicker overall if we focus on getting bridges to Alex and Qin built as we won't have to dilute our stack protecting the cities we take. An artist specialist/theatre/library will probably have the necessary border pops done by the time we've wrapped things up no the large island.

In terms of weakening tough defenders, don't forget the withdrawal percentage Keshiks get. In previous games going 100% Keshik as the Mongols, I've found it useful to leave most of them unpromoted until reaching the AI city. If the odds are poor (eg spears/CG3 archer on a hill), promoting down the flanking line turns them into an effective kamikaze unit to weaken the top defender ready for those promoted down the combat line to finish off at much better odds. They don't cause collateral damage to the others, but have higher base strength than catapults so are better against the top dog, by and large.

==========

It's a shame we can't see where the majority of the WW lies, but Izzy's the closest to us so I'd aim to take out Madrid and Barcelona first, especially if she's had the foresight to build us the Hindu shrine since that'd help finance operations.

 

[remconius]

I am not sure if conquest is faster. We would have more distance to travel.

On the other hand, by the time we have a big force sweeping through the continent from east to west, we could set up the other culture bridges to deal with Qin and Alex in turn and sweep the continent from the west to east.

I would like to try conquest as I usually tend to go for domination in my own games. And I think Keshiks only is the way to go. We dont have to drop them by the capital as they move just as fast on land, as galley's on water. We just need about 4-5 galleys moving from our land to the continent and our 5-7 cities building nothing but Keshiks.

 

[stuge]

Good point about the flanking Keshiks - collateral might not be so necessary at this point as the AI is unlikely to have huge stacks holed up in cities.

Spain will indeed work as a good supply base on the continent.

Conquest or domination, now there's a question. Personally I'm leaning towards conquest, mostly because it would require much less MM. Is somebody willing to do some tile-counting? For domination might be quicker to achieve if we only need our island, Sally's and the continent.

Although the conquest movie is much cooler...

 

[cabert]

Got it.
Seems to me conquest is easier now : with 5 cities, we only have reached 10% of the land .

 

[remconius]

GRAND STRATEGY - Summary:

1. Finish off Saladin.
2. Found a culture bridge city to the west.
3. Send current army to pillage and annoy Isa, Tok and Cyr.
4. Switch to HR and build cheap units for happiness.
5. Build Keshiks and a few more galleys.
6. Raze the entire continent (except maybe a few excellent cities that pay for themselves and can help build keshiks.
7. Meanwhile build culture bridge to Qin, and take him out.
8. Take out Alex last with the remaining army from the continent, ships should be ready.

Civics: HR to deal with happiness, CS for merchants (might not be necessary with Conquest?)
Techs: Discover CoL, Drama, Calendar before switching off science. (Currency unneeded with conquest)
Promotion: Keshiks should be promoted based on use. Flanking for weakening tough defenders and combat for finishing off enemies.

Seems straight forward. Did I miss anything?

 

[cabert]

GRAND STRATEGY - Summary:

1. Finish off Saladin.
2. Found a culture bridge city to the west.
3. Send current army to pillage and annoy Isa, Tok and Cyr.
4. Switch to HR and build cheap units for happiness.
5. Build Keshiks and a few more galleys.
6. Raze the entire continent (except maybe a few excellent cities that pay for themselves and can help build keshiks.
7. Meanwhile build culture bridge to Qin, and take him out.
8. Take out Alex last with the remaining army from the continent, ships should be ready.

Civics: HR to deal with happiness, CS for merchants (might not be necessary with Conquest?)
Techs: Discover CoL, Drama, Calendar before switching off science. (Currency unneeded with conquest)
Promotion: Keshiks should be promoted based on use. Flanking for weakening tough defenders and combat for finishing off enemies.

Seems straight forward. Did I miss anything?

yes, what do we tech to? CoL?
I already played, so too late.

Report :
turn 175 : I moved citizens around. I start a workboat for ninghsia.
...
turn 179 : Kufah gets razed, at the cost of 1 keshik. Saladin is far from dead. I notice he has a galley floating near our homeland.
...
181 : I finally notice mecca is out of revolt, and whip the obelisk I had queued. down to pop 2.
I raze Najran, but Saladin lives on .
I sink his galley out of rage.
I whip an axe in beshbalik. I whip the WorkBoat in Ninghsia.

182 : Found him! He's on an island east of us. Karakorum is happy again. I start a settler for our cultural bridge.

183 : galley finished in turfan, start a keshik. I started a granary in mecca after the obelisk. I whip it, they were unhappy anyway.
...
187 : Monarchy in. Time for construction? Alphabet seems useless if we just crush everyone.
...
190 : troops moving, workers chopping. I didn't change what I had in queue, but changed tile affectation to help growth.

All going according to the plan, but Saladin is a die hard, isn't he?
the save

 

[remconius]

EDIT: The west goes dotmap.

I agree with the easter bridge city.

I think the islands should get two cities:
1. one east of northern sugar. (horses, clams, sugar)
2. straight south from city 1. (clams and hills)

Alternative we just put the one city with two clams, horses and hills, but we miss the sugar, which we need.

The Qin culture bridge city (or two cities) can be high pop and commerce cities to support unit maintance.

 

[remconius]

@cabert: Good to see Saladin is almost dead.

Do we need construction if we dont build cats?

Roster

Remconius
cabert (just played)
Stuge (UP?)
Cam_H (on deck for the weekend)
patagonia

Lurking: Pigswill

Stuge, as you missed a turn and Cam cannot play till the weekend, you can be next.

 

[stuge]

Yay! I'll get it as soon as we agree on the next tech. I'd go for calendar. We could use the happies and the commerce. Drama would also be good but only if it helps us to establish the culture bridge quicker.

 

[cabert]

I don't think we can afford to take all the neighbours out without catapults.
I agree it can wait, though.
I also disagree about currency. Markets are big when you run 100% gold.
I vote for construction, currency, CoL, MC, calendar

 

[remconius]

Dont forget, Keshiks eat archers for breakfast.

Problem with catapults is, they are so slow. Unless there is a 60% city with archers on a hill, I'd rather like to spend an extra Keshik or 2. Let's build a cat/axe if we need to overcome any tough cities.

I would like to see calendar sooner in the order so we can work the dye and sugar.

MC is also debatable as it is quite expensive. I would prefer to hoard gold for maintenance. Current enemies have only 3-5 cities. I'd rather produce a few stacks of keshiks with replacements and dig through the continent.

Building a forge costs the same as 2.5 keshiks and reduces the time to build a keshik by 25%. In the time of 4 keshiks without a forge, you can build 5 keshiks with a forge. That means the payback time of a forge is only after you built 15 keshiks, per city. Of course there is an extra happiness bonus, but one cheap unit under HR will have the same effect.

Currency, could be good for cash, but with a conquest goal, we only need money to maintain units.

 

[cabert]

OK, so it's calendar asap?
CoL is even less usefull than currency, since courthouses don't even pay for units

 

[remconius]

That leaves Calendar, drama, construction, and full cash saving.

Let's play this game hardcore, no room for nice-to-haves

GRAND STRATEGY - Summary:

1. Finish off Saladin.
2. Found a culture bridge city to the west.
3. Send current army to pillage and annoy Isa, Tok and Cyr.
4. Switch to HR and build cheap units for happiness.
5. Build Keshiks and a few more galleys.
6. Raze the entire continent (except maybe a few excellent cities that pay for themselves and can help build keshiks.
7. Meanwhile build culture bridge to Qin, and take him out.
8. Take out Alex last with the remaining army from the continent, ships should be ready.

Civics: HR to deal with happiness
Techs: Discover Calendar, Drama and construction before switching off science.
Promotion: Keshiks should be promoted based on use. Flanking for weakening tough defenders and combat for finishing off enemies.

 

[pigswill]

Still Lurking

Looking at the map it seems like you don't need any cities on the middle island, only city north of rice to bridge the ocean there. A settler costs 2 keshiks (and additional city maintenance), ok if you're going for domination but unnecessary if going for conquest.
Would it be quicker to have galley chains either side of island (with kesihiks galloping across the island) or just run galleys in one trip?

 

[patagonia]

Agree with pigswill about the lack of a need for cities on the middle island.

They'll cost us in maintenance what we could be spending on unit upkeep in the short term, and can be compensated for by holding onto one or two top cities on the continent itself. Settlers would be better spent on culture bridges to Alex and Qin.

Apologies if Saladin got lost. I mentioned his galley and settler in my report. Guess they must have made landfall and founded another city. It'll be easy enough to raze though, having no support in getting it up and running.

 

[Cam_H]

Again - can't look at the game so reluctant to put forward any contrary positions other than ... can I also vote for Metal Casting to be included on our tech' list? I still like The Colossus, and I still like a small short term production sacrifice for a longer term gain in productivity and happiness. Even if we run at say 30% while reaping - I'd suggest that it's worth it.

I'm pleased that there seems to be general concensus on 'The Grand Strategy'.