SGOTM 06 - Misfits

[ChrisFromLux]

I've checked out the save a bit:

1) Athens will cost us 7,55 maintenance (5,31 for distance, and another 2,24 for number of cities), once it gets out of revolt
Of course, it can also work the gold and 3 cottages, so most of its income goes directly into its maintenance ...

2) Looking at the demographics, I saw that we are only Number2 in soldiers I think this confirms the presence of at least one aggressive guy on another continent (Monty? Or was that Ragnar's culture I spotted W of London?)

3) The only wonders we didn't ... ahem ... "build" ... are the Temple of Artemis and the Great Lighthouse ... nothing special we missed, IMHO

4) Nottingham's worker should rebuild the gold-mine, as soon as he finishes the cottage (in 3 turns)

5) In Horico, I would at least switch the spices to 1 cottage. This will only delay the library by 1 turn. Even switching the horses to another cottage 'only' delays the library by another 10 turns ... making Horico finish it in 21 turns, instead of 10 turns ATM ... Not too bad, as it isn't producing much commerce yet. I prefer to get these cottages to grow (they all need 15 turns til 'Hamlet'), instead of finishing that library faster!

6) The next player ... well, I am ready (of course ), but I won't be able to play tomorrow. I could play on Saturday morning though (roughly 36 hours from now). But if maroWaker can make it earlier, I have no problem switching him in before me ...

7) @marowaker: just don't rush anything in Corinth, only to be the one that maybe eliminated Alex, please
But looking at our army, and leaving the chariot in Athens as MP, we should have 6 Axes and 4 Cats in Corinth (+ another new unit from London after the Cat is is building) vs. (ATM) 3 CG1-Archers on a hill!
Using ~3 Cats to weaken the defenders first, we should probably be able to RAZE(!!!) it, though ...

8) I agree on revolting to HR ... it is 2 cheaper ATMt, and as we don't have many specialists, Rep. really isn't worth it ...

P.S.: I love Hastings 'defender'

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Yeah, a couple more cats and Alex is toast. I really don't see a reason not to push forward and take out the AI. Does building new units when others get killed have some harmful effect I don't know about?

EDIT:

We have 4 cats? That should take him out. If we keep replacing cats from London, can we just keep marching on?

 

[marowaker]

I've checked out the save a bit:

1)Well, what did you expect?

2)Power is very misleading but their could very well be another aggresive guy on the other continent. Remember this is a (modified) Big and Small map so they could all be on islands.

3)Well, we got lucky since when stealing wonders, what you take is what you get.

4)Seems simple enough

5)Well at 0% Science, the Library only gives us specialists but with our economy it seems like a good idea

6)I can play almost whenever anyone wants me to so I will play ASAP

7)I think we can take it and the dotmap clearly states to raze it, so I will.

8)Also makes sense, but it will double science specialists which we could really use right now.

P.S)Correct, everyone fear the settler. BTW, should I settle him in A,I or not in my turn?

Does building new units when others get killed have some harmful effect I don't know about?

Well, we won't have highly promoted units but other then that, no.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

P.S)Correct, everyone fear the settler. BTW, should I settle him in A,I or not in my turn?



Well, we won't have highly promoted units but other then that, no.

1) If it were just me, I'd wait and settle A once we have it cleared. Also, settling A means meeting a new AI, which means war. If we clear our island, we'd technically be at peace for awhile.

2) Do we have a road to Athens already? If not, that should be on the list...

3) And, if there is no penalty for losing units (aside from WW, which will happen no matter when we kill the AI, even more later.) send in the cats and keep them coming from London! Bombard while we wait for the reinforcements, then clean up! (Listen to me, the peaceful builder! )

 

[marowaker]

Well, I have completed my turnset(though I am not sure how many turns). Here is a brief summary of what interesting things happened:

The battle of Conrith:

Alex managed to build 2 more archers wile our nits were getting healed. The RNG continues to hate us as we lose the first 5 rounds in a row losing one of our catapults. That turned out to be the only unit that was lost in my turn. Alex is gone He was also kind enough to generate a GG in Athens.

Hanny sent 2 archers after Athens with only the medic chariot left so to ensure survival, I had to whip an elephant. The only thing pillaged was the gold mine.

Hanny also built a new city on Mansa's border.

I am sure I made a few mistakes but I am happy with the turnset.

Roster (update) :
ChrisFromLux => UP
Mastiff_of_Ar => On deck
ArcadicGamer
namliaM => Captured Athens
marowaker => Killed Alex

From now on I will link to The dotmap so everyone can find it easy like.

CNWJR => Out of this for a while, Unable to load the save
MaroWaker => Already joined

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Did you make any screenshots, Maro?

 

[marowaker]

Did you make any screenshots, Maro?

No, was I meant to?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

It's kind of nice to see... and can you post the logs?

 

[marowaker]

It's kind of nice to see... and can you post the logs?

I am not not sure how to get them back, do I repost the save on the forum and get them like that, or is there another way?

 

[namliaM]

I've checked out the save a bit:

1) Athens will cost us 7,55 maintenance (5,31 for distance, and another 2,24 for number of cities), once it gets out of revolt
Of course, it can also work the gold and 3 cottages, so most of its income goes directly into its maintenance ...

Well at a total cost of 10 GPT (what we/I estimated), working Clams 2, Gold 8 , 3 hamletts 6. It gets CC 1 and Trade 1 commerce each for 2 more = 2 + 2 + 8 + 3 = 15 commerce. At 30% (not even breakeven atm) that makes 10 gold and 5 beakers, or paying for itself

2) Looking at the demographics, I saw that we are only Number2 in soldiers I think this confirms the presence of at least one aggressive guy on another continent (Monty? Or was that Ragnar's culture I spotted W of London?)

Yep, someone is having fun
Take into account tho, walls, barracks, pop and Tech all count as soldiers.
Pop we are not doing great, tech we are behind probably and well we dont have a SINGLE wall and but the single barracks. I think we have the biggest Army tho. <Maro seems to agree>

3) The only wonders we didn't ... ahem ... "build" ... are the Temple of Artemis and the Great Lighthouse ... nothing special we missed, IMHO

Artemis and Lighthouse would indeed not do us much good. Tho maybe if we had build the Oracle ourselves but that just wasnt in the cards.

4) Nottingham's worker should rebuild the gold-mine, as soon as he finishes the cottage (in 3 turns)

5) I prefer to get these cottages to grow (they all need 15 turns til 'Hamlet'), instead of finishing that library faster!

6) The next player ... well, I am ready (of course ), but I won't be able to play tomorrow. I could play on Saturday morning though (roughly 36 hours from now). But if maroWaker can make it earlier, I have no problem switching him in before me ...

7) RAZE(!!!)

Do we want to (re)build I or start on A with the free settler? If we want to build another city at all ATM.
We do want to settle as many cities as possible 15 turns before Calander so we get the free Border expansions.

8) I agree on revolting to HR ... it is 2 cheaper ATMt, and as we don't have many specialists, Rep. really isn't worth it ...

Yes only London is bouncing up against the happy cap... so HR is the way to go IMHO.

P.S.: I love Hastings 'defender'

Yes dont you...

@MoA#2
Why do we need a road to Athens, other than unit movement? We have sailing, so Athens hooks up to London automagicaly doesnt it?

@MoA#3
The cost offcourse is Hammer as much as anything right now. The less units we expend, the sooner we can go get more gold

though I am not sure how many turns

It seems to be exactly 10 turns
A couple of remarks:
0) Research
Kill research I think for the moment, we need some 20 more gold or so (2 turns) to get IW in 3 turns (at 100%) for a total of 5 turns. Kill research again. Next up CoL I think, for 8 turns at 100% needing 8*57 = 456 gold in reserve, meanwhile we finish some Libraries for added research bonus.
1) Horico
A barracks? Hmz... maybe a market?
2) York
Aquaduct? When are we going to need health? Not for a long long while. Also a market?
A mine on the hill? York = Commerce = Cottage or?
3) London
Working the mine vs a cottage? We may want to insert a Market here as well?
I wouldnt chop down that northern forrest just yet, we have other (equal) grasses to cottage and 2 forrests make for 1 health, which is allways nice.
4) Sparta
Also the general distibution of workers atm I like
5) The fogbusting warrior
You didnt retreat him into our culture? Tho you noticed this first... MP for Hastings or Athens?
6) Hastings vs Athens
Why did you deside the Cottage in Hastings is more important than the Gold mine in Athens? Lets get that mine back up ASAP.
I think we only use the one (free) worker there, let the other one finish the Cottage and next move to Pasture the cows.
7) MM Axe
What is the goal for the lone Axe in MM country?

We need to start clearing A as soon as we have IW I think. Or atleast those parts that are currently within our borders (of London).
We should settle A or I asap. That settler is costing us 1 gpt upkeep as well.
I would pay for itself pretty quickly with 1 farm (on the southwest FP as indicated on the Dotmap) 3 cottages and the gold mine. But I dont think we can carry the cost right now. So A would be the more logical choice, taking one worker from York, London and Sparta we should be able to get A up fast like. Get some farms down first to help it grow then start mining.

Athens can insert/build a workboat for A which can go explore south a little bit, see if there is a crossing of some sort down there to the west. Before it has to track north for the fish.

 

[namliaM]

Hanny sent 2 archers after Athens with only the medic chariot left so to ensure survival, I had to whip an elephant. The only thing pillaged was the gold mine.

We knew about the roaming Archers, to bad about whipping the WE, but it seems a necesity...

Hanny also built a new city on Mansa's border.

Yep this was to be expected with the settler in Carthage

I am sure I made a few mistakes but I am happy with the turnset.

None to bad I dont think so.... and winning battles at 20%, 65% and 80%
Are we crazy or what? How did you do that with OUR save?

A few screenies and/or the logs would be nice. Often a picture paints a thousand words...

Roster (update) :
ChrisFromLux => UP, for economic recovery
Mastiff_of_Ar => On deck
ArcadicGamer
namliaM
marowaker => Killed Alex & Welcome on board!

From now on I will link to The dotmap so everyone can find it easy like.

CNWJR => Out of this for a while, Unable to load the save

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Pop we are not doing great,

Not true!
When I checked the demographics (before maro played his set), we were Number 1 in population (and in land-area, if I'm not mistaken now)

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Not true!
When I checked the demographics (before maro played his set), we were Number 1 in population (and in land-area, if I'm not mistaken now)

Hmmm, I've re-checked the demographics, and we're (only) n°3 in Population and n°1 in Land Area ... not that important, though

 

[ChrisFromLux]

ChrisFromLux => UP, for economic recovery

As I said yesterday, I'll be able to play my turns tomorrow morning ...

I suggest moving all Corinth-razing-units back into Sparta's culture, where all injured units can heal.

The VPP-party near Carthage/Kerkouane will be sent to pillage Carthage's horses and copper again ... in-game log doesn't show any entry about maroWaker having done that?
Of course, maybe, Hanni hasn't improved these tiles yet; but that's not very probable, IMHO?!?

The Scouting-Warrior S of London will be moved to Hastings to act as MP.

In London, I'll stop the cottage on the NE-forest, and build one on an available grass-tile. And I'll switch a mine to another cottage.
Horico will start a market, instead of the barracks, York also a market instead of the aqueduct, and in Athens, I'll immediately assign a worker to get this gold up again!

As for our settler AKA Hasting-Defender , I would not settler another city just right now, but wait 'til we get IW, and get at least a farm ready to work immediately! I'll use the cottaging-worker S of London for this ...

Talking Research, I'll switch down to 0% for 3 turns (=3*10 only for a total 174, which will permit to research IW in 3 turns, at -57/turn, leaving 3 in treasury before switching to 0% again for the rest of my set ...

 

[namliaM]

Both approval rate and Land area we are #1.

Tho Approval rating is more like "how much can you grow" and not how many pop do you currently have.

Population we have 551000 and are #3 (out of 6) with hannibal probably worst at 267000 and the best at 722000.
Moreso:
1 Barracks = 3000
1 Axemen = 3000
1 WE = 5000
Wall = 2000

The Great wall tho = 10000

Techs
HBR 10000
IW 10000
Archery 6000

So thats is easy 26000 soldiers just in beakers that we are trailing that AI.
2 walls and 2 barracks (we all know how the AI love to build Walls) = 'Our' great wall.
Given the avg AI should have 4-5 cities right now... that is another 10000 soldiers we are misisng.

As for generating a GS... Hmz... what do we do?
We can:
1) Horico
Run 2 scientists there for 6 GPP for 300 / 6 = 50 turns and be sure of a GS
which should pop before Athens gets the second Great Person:
(102 (for the first GP) + 300) = 402 / 7 = 58 turns
At the cost offcourse of 50 turns working Cottages:
2 * 15 * 1 (cottage) = 30
2 * 35 * 2 (hamlett) = 140 => 170 commerce/gold
And gain 2 * 3 * 50 = 300 beakers
2) Athens
Get 2 scientists in Athens ASAP, it will take Athens roughly 80 (hammers left on the lib) / 5 = 16 turns to even addopt 2 scientists. While it is 15 turns to the first GP. But then it is running at 13GPP => 300/13 = 23 turns
Then 450 / 13 = 34 for the third (total 57 turns)
The second and third will have rougly 33% change of beeing GS, for a total chance of 43.5% of niether beeing a GS (66% * 66%)
Then a total of 28.7% chance of the third not beeing a GS either after (600/13) 47 turns (total 104 turns)

So by running scientists in Athens we rush the GP but have a chance of not getting the desired GS but a GP or GE instead. Delaying the GS instead of rushing him.

Running 2 scientists in Horico sound good to me
(we probably should have done this earlier too )

<edit due to crosspost with Chris> Sounds like a plan to me...
Moving the Greek killers into our culture should save an additional 5gpt in cost as well so maybe also save 1 turn of saving?
Dont know if that can be important or not, but the worker south of London only has 4 turns left on the cottage. So maybe the one turn can make a difference in starting to chop/farm?

We should get the Settler AND GG to the south of London I think? The GG is just costing us money if we dont settle him ASAP.
</edit>

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

As for generating a GS... Hmz... what do we do?
We can:
1) Horico
Run 2 scientists there for 6 GPP for 300 / 6 = 50 turns and be sure of a GS
which should pop before Athens gets the second Great Person:
(102 (for the first GP) + 300) = 402 / 7 = 58 turns
At the cost offcourse of 50 turns working Cottages:
2 * 15 * 1 (cottage) = 30
2 * 35 * 2 (hamlett) = 140 => 170 commerce/gold
And gain 2 * 3 * 50 = 300 beakers
2) Athens
Get 2 scientists in Athens ASAP, it will take Athens roughly 80 (hammers left on the lib) / 5 = 16 turns to even addopt 2 scientists. While it is 15 turns to the first GP. But then it is running at 13GPP => 300/13 = 23 turns
Then 450 / 13 = 34 for the third (total 57 turns)
The second and third will have rougly 33% change of beeing GS, for a total chance of 43.5% of niether beeing a GS (66% * 66%)
Then a total of 28.7% chance of the third not beeing a GS either after (600/13) 47 turns (total 104 turns)

So by running scientists in Athens we rush the GP but have a chance of not getting the desired GS but a GP or GE instead. Delaying the GS instead of rushing him.

Running 2 scientists in Horico sound good to me
(we probably should have done this earlier too )

Fifty turns of not working the cottages hurts. I assume we want the GS for an academy? That's good, but if we were to pop a GE, he could build the GL for us in Athens... If a GP, lightbulb a tech (Or save him for a shrine). I also think some of your calculations will change if we change to caste system and run more scientists.

We should get the Settler AND GG to the south of London I think? The GG is just costing us money if we dont settle him ASAP.

We going to put the GG in London for more XP?

 

[namliaM]

Caste system = CoL Which we dont have and wont have for a looooong while yet...
GL = Literature, which is way off as well.

Trading like 170 gold for 300 beakers doesnt sound to bad to me... 1:2...

 

[marowaker]

A couple of remarks:
1) Horico
A barracks? Hmz... maybe a market?

2) York
Aquaduct? When are we going to need health? Not for a long long while. Also a market?
A mine on the hill? York = Commerce = Cottage or?

For these two, I must have forgotten about how badly we needed markets.

3) London
Working the mine vs a cottage? We may want to insert a Market here as well?
I wouldnt chop down that northern forrest just yet, we have other (equal) grasses to cottage and 2 forrests make for 1 health, which is allways nice.

This must have been an accident. It is not my common playstyle to look into every city at every turn. I would have missed someting.

5) The fogbusting warrior
You didnt retreat him into our culture? Tho you noticed this first... MP for Hastings or Athens?

Must have forgotten about this one. I don't know how.

7) MM Axe
What is the goal for the lone Axe in MM country?

I was using him as a scout for skirmisher attacks and to keep Mansa from doing much with workers. I did not know what else to do with a wood II axe.

EDIT:

None to bad I dont think so.... and winning battles at 20%, 65% and 80%
Are we crazy or what? How did you do that with OUR save?

Clearly you must have been in anarchy waiting for myself to save you from the evil RNG
Seriously, I also lost a 20% roll with a cat but I must be the lucky one.

 

[namliaM]

One expects to lose the 20% battles... and maybe win one on a blue moon. But then expect to win 80+% generaly and lose one on a blue moon.

We have been losing 80+% battles left and right.... but you might have noticed that too when you were Lurking the thread.

Woods 2 axeman? Where/when did we pick up a woods 2 axemen? Well I guess you are right, maybe he can pick up a lose worker out in the jungle and hurt MM a litte. He has contributed VERY LITTLE so far to our cause.

 

[marowaker]

Where/when did we pick up a woods 2 axemen?

I upgraded him from a warrior, it seems to be too valuable for MP