SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I suppose you're hinting at my signature? 
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Hey culdeus, they was at some 800 Km south from here.
They will arrive close to my hometown in some 10 days.
On topic:
Not that i wanna insist, but what about take a detour NOW to Drama, just to have something to trade?
What can we trade after CoL? CS? not for sure.
And Drama will solve once and for all our happiness problems (or put us on the route to do this).
And we'll "gain" some more turn for our civics change, and perhaps some better chance to trade techs: CS really puts us in the "advanced fold".
I guess our next build will be a LH, right?
@WT
is the amount of techs obtained in trade, or the plain knowledge of techs that stops the AI to trade techs?
IF the second is correct, is one more reason to detour on Drama NOW!
They will arrive close to my hometown in some 10 days.
On topic:
Not that i wanna insist, but what about take a detour NOW to Drama, just to have something to trade?
What can we trade after CoL? CS? not for sure.
And Drama will solve once and for all our happiness problems (or put us on the route to do this).
And we'll "gain" some more turn for our civics change, and perhaps some better chance to trade techs: CS really puts us in the "advanced fold".
I guess our next build will be a LH, right?
@WT
is the amount of techs obtained in trade, or the plain knowledge of techs that stops the AI to trade techs?
IF the second is correct, is one more reason to detour on Drama NOW!
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
We still could lose it, but now I think it is unlikely. We are running at approximately +39 culture per turn in that tile (thanks to our Library's age putting it at +4). New York, with its recent border pop, should be running at +44 culture per turn in the tile (+40 from border pops, +2 library, +1 obelisk, +1 temple). That means that even with their recent border expansion New York is only gaining on us by about +5 culture per turn. At 52% Chinese culture in the tile already, I'm guessing our lead is strong enough to carry us through until our own borders pop in 2 turns. After that, we'll gain another +20 culture per turn in the tile and run away with the show for good.
EDIT: I forgot, NY has religion too, so +1 for that = +45 total and +6/turn gain on us. Still not enough to get it back in just 2 turns, I hope.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Okay -- no trades until we can get Monarchy first. After that, if possible, currency is next, followed by calendar? (or should we just leave calendar alone?) In any case, Civil Service will NOT be offered in trade for any tech during the next turnset. Everyone is willing to pass CoL, Lit, and the lower techs around as necessary to get what we want though, right?
EDIT: One question: Does anyone know if either Asoka or Liz has a "worst enemy" yet? Is there anyone we should be avoiding in the next round of tech trading???
Okay, I've got the save, but won't play until tomorrow evening, earliest. I'll post a list of *draft* goals for the turnset soon.
Once we get Monarchy I think we'll still be able to trade that around for some gain. CoL will still have some life to it too. Even Alphabet is still needed by some of the AI right now. I don't think this will be as much of a problem as it seems to be. It is more likely that we'll run into the wall of simply being maxed out on trades with everyone again. (And I'm not sure we want to delay getting to Education and Oxford University for any reason. The opportunity cost in terms of beakers lost might be pretty high even for just a few turns.)
It's both the number of techs you traded and how far ahead you are...and maybe some other small factors that determine willingness to trade. Once we get what we need we can be very generous with the backward civs. Don't forget the big picture. We're here to help the AI launch faster. We won't hold out CS too long for our top PA choices.
Drama before CS: that's a joke, right?
Drama before CS: that's a joke, right?
culdeus
Emperor
Should we be wary trading with Alex and HC? They are each 0 with us and trading with the other one would certainly give "worst enemy" -1 from the other.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
*DRAFT* Goals for the Next Turnset:
This is meant to be a starting point for our discussions. I'll be away for the next 10 hours, so please have at it. I won't play until tomorrow night unless a strong consensus develops and y'all would rather have me run it tonight.
This is meant to be a starting point for our discussions. I'll be away for the next 10 hours, so please have at it. I won't play until tomorrow night unless a strong consensus develops and y'all would rather have me run it tonight.
- Turns to Play: finish 79, play 80-87, stop before ending t87.
- Research Path: finish Civil Service, begin Paper
- Build Order: Lighthouse, National Epic (or Monastery? -NE now will avoid marble/stone trade problems later w/ Oxford.)
- City Priority = Growth (work 2xCrabs, G/R Cottage, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble; @8 work P/R Cottage too.)
- Worker: finish cottage (in 4t), road it (2t), move to grass/forest 1SW of Beijing & pre-chop for 1turn (on way to Iron).
- Technology Trading:
- Worst Enemies? -- no one has any yet. Even HC & Alex are still only "annoyed" with each other.
- get Monarchy first (for CoL & lower -- Do NOT trade Civil Service)
- then Currency (using Monarchy, CoL, & lower)
- hold off on Calendar & Monotheism, for more willingness to get traded Drama later?
- technology gifts? -- None this turnset.
- Resource Trading:
- in 1 turn, switch marble for stone with JC/gold (for National Epic)
- (doing NE now will avoid potential problems switching to stone later for Oxford)
- sheep to Washington can be canceled in 8 turns -- Leave it alone for now.
- do not trade crab -- use it as demand bait, hopefully for George.
- do not cancel any happy trades (incense/gold after Monarchy) until necessary (relations boost).
- Political Demands:
- DO NOT give in to any demand for Civil Service.
- do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change)
- give in to all other demands (for resources or techs).
culdeus has a good point about worst enemy. It can be -4 fast, so avoid those two.
Worker: NO road on cottage (pointless). Forget Iron too. Believe it or not, we will have paper and Edu in about 20-25 turns. So in 25 turns we want to be able to have forests ready to fall. We spend 4 turns on the current cottage. Then move to a grass/forest and put 6 turns into a cottage (Don't finish it!), repeat that 2 more times. We should have Edu. and start the University before the 3rd cottage finishes/chops. Then move and finish the other 2. That plan will change as we get closer to Edu, but it shows the general direction we should go. If we can get to Edu in ~20 turns, then we only have time for 2 more cottages instead of 3...but that makes me happy to have Edu early. So, to sum up, with the growth coming soon, we should get on those cottages.
We cannot allow the Nat Epic to finish before we pop the next Scientist. So doing it after the LH has to be watched carefully. Might be best to just build 1 monastery first or we may need to run a scientist for a turn or two to get the GP--but why run scientists before the NatEpic? No gambling! An artist now would kill us on Edu.
Don't forget to revolt immediately to Bureau/HR. If HR is not available, we still have to switch to Bureau on the first turn available. Never say yes to the advisor and switch civics from that popup window. Always do it manually on the F3 screen, but I'm sure you all know that.
Worker: NO road on cottage (pointless). Forget Iron too. Believe it or not, we will have paper and Edu in about 20-25 turns. So in 25 turns we want to be able to have forests ready to fall. We spend 4 turns on the current cottage. Then move to a grass/forest and put 6 turns into a cottage (Don't finish it!), repeat that 2 more times. We should have Edu. and start the University before the 3rd cottage finishes/chops. Then move and finish the other 2. That plan will change as we get closer to Edu, but it shows the general direction we should go. If we can get to Edu in ~20 turns, then we only have time for 2 more cottages instead of 3...but that makes me happy to have Edu early. So, to sum up, with the growth coming soon, we should get on those cottages.
We cannot allow the Nat Epic to finish before we pop the next Scientist. So doing it after the LH has to be watched carefully. Might be best to just build 1 monastery first or we may need to run a scientist for a turn or two to get the GP--but why run scientists before the NatEpic? No gambling! An artist now would kill us on Edu.
Don't forget to revolt immediately to Bureau/HR. If HR is not available, we still have to switch to Bureau on the first turn available. Never say yes to the advisor and switch civics from that popup window. Always do it manually on the F3 screen, but I'm sure you all know that.
culdeus
Emperor
why?
It's just a good habit to always say no to the advisor. Two problems can happen if you say yes. 1) You'll only get 1 civic change. There's no way to get both bureau/hr. 2) even if you think you're only going to change 1 civic, you still have the current turn to try and trade for Monarchy. Then revolt manually.
culdeus
Emperor
well that's nearly as bad as what I thought it might be.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Agreed about the F3 screen, it's what i usually do.
No, i wasn't jokin' about Drama.
Since (honest) i did not opened the save, your post seems a bit desperate about the chance to trade for Monarchy before CS is in.
One thing is sure to me: we'll *never* revolt to HR if not for free.
We can wait 1 turn to revolt to Bureau, maybe 2, but they are lost turns if we cannot obtain it in trade.
If we do, better 2 turns without the +50% that 1 more turn of anarchy.
@Balthalion
First of all i think your recruitment was a very good move, and i hope you will stay with us for the next 100 SGs.
Your plan seems good to me, just:
Road the forests before pre-cottage them, so we don't loose worker turns (or better we loose 2 turns/road, but after that the road is built).
Never told you? i'm a road spammer.
The NE should NOT be completed before the GS pops, but not too soon, to avoid excessive pollution on next one (WT, please correct me if i'm wrong on this point).
I made an effort and opened the save
:
- The GS is due in 11 tuns, so no need to hurry. We must consider 1 more turn for the anarchy.
- Both LH and monastery can be built in 4 turns, the temple in 5.
- the NE in 11
- There's a nice bunch of AIs willing to trade currency
- Fred with the monopoly on MC
- and Wash + Asoka with Monarchy
- Calendar is known by 6 AIs out of the 10 we know, all willing to trade
- Mono? useless, only to boost relations (we can trade an older tech for it and gain "trades fair etc.")
So, we're waiting to trade currency 'cause we're afraid to not obtain Monarchy?
Oh well, keep monitored the trades, but i'm afraid our techs can be discovered or to be researched by a good number of AIs.
We lost the monopoly on CoL, Lizzy has it.
BTW, have you noticed that our Fin/Phi Lizzy has 2 whales and 3 seafoods in London's BFC?
Some AIs don't even have Poly or PH, but they are really backwards.
Anyway, Fred will recover after Calendar, with 3 Dyes.
I'va tried to open some trade and for the "red" techs they say only "we don't want... yet"
KK gives Currency+30g for Alpha+CoL
HC currency+80g for Lit+CoL
Better KK, i guess.
we can perhaps trade Lit for Mono and some money?
If we wait to trade currency to have Mon first, do both trades in the very same turn.
No, i wasn't jokin' about Drama.
Since (honest) i did not opened the save, your post seems a bit desperate about the chance to trade for Monarchy before CS is in.
One thing is sure to me: we'll *never* revolt to HR if not for free.
We can wait 1 turn to revolt to Bureau, maybe 2, but they are lost turns if we cannot obtain it in trade.
If we do, better 2 turns without the +50% that 1 more turn of anarchy.
@Balthalion
First of all i think your recruitment was a very good move, and i hope you will stay with us for the next 100 SGs.
Your plan seems good to me, just:
Road the forests before pre-cottage them, so we don't loose worker turns (or better we loose 2 turns/road, but after that the road is built).
Never told you? i'm a road spammer.
The NE should NOT be completed before the GS pops, but not too soon, to avoid excessive pollution on next one (WT, please correct me if i'm wrong on this point).
I made an effort and opened the save
:- The GS is due in 11 tuns, so no need to hurry. We must consider 1 more turn for the anarchy.
- Both LH and monastery can be built in 4 turns, the temple in 5.
- the NE in 11
- There's a nice bunch of AIs willing to trade currency
- Fred with the monopoly on MC
- and Wash + Asoka with Monarchy
- Calendar is known by 6 AIs out of the 10 we know, all willing to trade
- Mono? useless, only to boost relations (we can trade an older tech for it and gain "trades fair etc.")
So, we're waiting to trade currency 'cause we're afraid to not obtain Monarchy?
Oh well, keep monitored the trades, but i'm afraid our techs can be discovered or to be researched by a good number of AIs.
We lost the monopoly on CoL, Lizzy has it.
BTW, have you noticed that our Fin/Phi Lizzy has 2 whales and 3 seafoods in London's BFC?
Some AIs don't even have Poly or PH, but they are really backwards.
Anyway, Fred will recover after Calendar, with 3 Dyes.
I'va tried to open some trade and for the "red" techs they say only "we don't want... yet"
KK gives Currency+30g for Alpha+CoL
HC currency+80g for Lit+CoL
Better KK, i guess.
we can perhaps trade Lit for Mono and some money?
If we wait to trade currency to have Mon first, do both trades in the very same turn.
NE is 6 turns (when we get our marble back) not 11.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
All Righty then... Thanks for the great feedback WastinTime & everyone. We'll get there sooner or later. (I appreciate the kind words too, BLubmuz, but don't worry, you guys can't scare me away that easily! )
How 'bout this then...
*DRAFT #2* Goals for the Next Turnset:
I won't play until tomorrow night. Keep the comments and guidance coming please!
One last note: the only disagreement I could detect in the last few posts (and not already noted above) had to do with road spamming. After considering it more carefully, I think WT is right about us having higher priorities than putting a road on the plains/river cottage, and the forest tile 1SW of Beijing is already roaded, so I'll just dodge the rest of the controversy and leave it up to the next player to sort out.
)How 'bout this then...
*DRAFT #2* Goals for the Next Turnset:
I won't play until tomorrow night. Keep the comments and guidance coming please!
- Turns to Play: finish 79, play 80-87, stop before ending t87.
- Research Path: finish Civil Service, begin Paper
- Don't forget to revolt to Bureaucracy after getting CS, but hopefully together with Hereditary Rule as under #8 below.
- Build Order: Lighthouse (4t), Monastery (4t), (then set to National Epic).
- City Priority = Growth (work 2xCrabs, g/r Cottage, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble; @8 work p/r Cottage too.)
- Worker: finish cottage (in 4t), move to grass/forest 1SW of Beijing & pre-cottage until 1turn from completion.
- Technology Trading:
- Worst Enemies? -- no one has any yet. Even HC & Alex are still only "annoyed" with each other -- but avoid trades with either one if possible because it wont be long until
. - get Monarchy first (for CoL & lower -- Do NOT trade Civil Service)
- then Currency (using Monarchy, CoL, & lower)
- hold off on Calendar & Monotheism, for more willingness to get traded Drama later.
- What about Feudalism? Not possible yet, but how important do we rank this if it becomes possible to trade for it?
- technology gifts? -- None this turnset.
- Worst Enemies? -- no one has any yet. Even HC & Alex are still only "annoyed" with each other -- but avoid trades with either one if possible because it wont be long until
- Resource Trading:
- in about 6 turns (before NE), switch marble for stone with JC/gold (doing NE early will avoid potential problems switching to stone later for Oxford)
- sheep to Washington can be canceled in 8 turns -- Leave it alone for now.
- do not trade crab -- use it as demand bait, hopefully for George.
- do not cancel any happy trades (incense/gold after Monarchy) until necessary (relations boost).
- Civics Changes:
- Revolt to Bureaucracy on the turn we get Civil Service, but not before checking on possible Monarchy trades that turn. (Or maybe wait 1-2 turns if HR not ready yet? Advice?)
- If we can get Monarchy in time, then revolt to Bureaucracy & Hereditary Rule on the same turn to avoid any additional anarchy delay
- If Monarchy comes later, then revolt to Hereditary Rule later anyway once it becomes possible to do so.
- Political Demands:
- DO NOT give in to any demand for Civil Service.
- do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change)
- give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
- do not join any wars.
- do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Asoka or Liz??? Any advice from the team here?)
One last note: the only disagreement I could detect in the last few posts (and not already noted above) had to do with road spamming. After considering it more carefully, I think WT is right about us having higher priorities than putting a road on the plains/river cottage, and the forest tile 1SW of Beijing is already roaded, so I'll just dodge the rest of the controversy and leave it up to the next player to sort out.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Nottingham is going to be interesting to watch over the next few turns. It doesn't look like Liz has built any culture producing buildings there yet, and our borders are going to expand over the Nottingham city tile in just two more turns.
If I am reading that culture article correctly, then both the city and the surrounding 8 tiles should only have an English "plot culture" value of 1 right now. We'll be getting +19 each turn after our border expansion, so that should get us the clams (and the fish) immediately and our culture balance should be at something like 19 to 1 (in the clam tile), or 95% Chinese even just after that first turn.
Even better, the city itself should be in the same situation, so in 3 or 4 turns we might be at 99% Chinese culture in the city itself. If I'm reading this correctly, then that should mean that a revolt will be likely in the city very soon. Better yet, even if Liz builds an obelisk (or gets religion) in Nottingham and gets a border expansion after ten turns, by that time we'll have a monastery and be producing +21 culture in the tile, which should keep us equal with Nottingham's culture production even after it gets its first border pop (or at worst, we'll be at a -1 cpt deficit if Liz gets both an obelisk and religion in Nottingham). Even at a -1 cpt differential, we should have enough of a lead to see that Nottingham revolts itself into rubble rather quickly.
On the other hand, is it just my false impression or do English cities really take longer to flip than cities from other civs? I remember waiting on English cities to flip even after they've been completely surrounded by my cultural control for many turns in several other games I've played. That doesn't seem to happen as much with other civs. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I just confused?
If I am reading that culture article correctly, then both the city and the surrounding 8 tiles should only have an English "plot culture" value of 1 right now. We'll be getting +19 each turn after our border expansion, so that should get us the clams (and the fish) immediately and our culture balance should be at something like 19 to 1 (in the clam tile), or 95% Chinese even just after that first turn.
Even better, the city itself should be in the same situation, so in 3 or 4 turns we might be at 99% Chinese culture in the city itself. If I'm reading this correctly, then that should mean that a revolt will be likely in the city very soon. Better yet, even if Liz builds an obelisk (or gets religion) in Nottingham and gets a border expansion after ten turns, by that time we'll have a monastery and be producing +21 culture in the tile, which should keep us equal with Nottingham's culture production even after it gets its first border pop (or at worst, we'll be at a -1 cpt deficit if Liz gets both an obelisk and religion in Nottingham). Even at a -1 cpt differential, we should have enough of a lead to see that Nottingham revolts itself into rubble rather quickly.
On the other hand, is it just my false impression or do English cities really take longer to flip than cities from other civs? I remember waiting on English cities to flip even after they've been completely surrounded by my cultural control for many turns in several other games I've played. That doesn't seem to happen as much with other civs. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I just confused?
Attachments
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Build queue:
LH - Monastery
NE if you manage to switch from marble to stone with JC.
This way the NE should complete a bit too soon, perhaps a temple before? comments?
I'm in favor to trade ASAP for currency with KK, so we can "put on sale" some older techs with the most backwards civs. Is it too gambling on the side to obtain Monarchy soon?
Remember that trade a tech for a cheap price is better than gave it (or am i wrong?).
LH - Monastery
NE if you manage to switch from marble to stone with JC.
This way the NE should complete a bit too soon, perhaps a temple before? comments?
I'm in favor to trade ASAP for currency with KK, so we can "put on sale" some older techs with the most backwards civs. Is it too gambling on the side to obtain Monarchy soon?
Remember that trade a tech for a cheap price is better than gave it (or am i wrong?).
"We fear you are becoming to advanced" counts the number of techs you've traded for only, see the strategy article I posted earlier. It also only works for civs that are at the top of the scoreboard, backwards civs should keep trading with us.
I agree about not wasting our worker turns on roads.
I think we should first get Monarchy before trying to obtain Currency. Currency will give us +1
/turn, and a market for +1 
, monarchy will give us +4 immediately.
I agree about not wasting our worker turns on roads.
I think we should first get Monarchy before trying to obtain Currency. Currency will give us +1
/turn, and a market for +1 , monarchy will give us +4 immediately.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Everything seems to have been covered. 
Just 2 things:
1. Are we going to put in some naval defence for our seafood?
2. Settling the GS is 1
and 6
*(1.85) =~11/t with library, academy, and monastery. After uni and oxford it's *(2.6) =~15.6 which will break even in 76 turns against a 1200 bulb.
Currently, we get 31, after bureau (+50%) 46 +6 = 52 * 1.85 = 96/turn
With settling: 858+2574 = 3432 @96 ~36 turns for paper and edu
Bulbing about 1200 of edu: 3432-1200 = 2232 @85 ~ 27 turns for paper and edu
Get the uni/oxford 9 turns earlier = 15.6*9 =~140
So we effectively gain 9 turns on the buildings totaling around 140, weighed against the super-scientist paying a base 6 with between a 1.85 and 3.1 multiplier (~11 to 18/t) for the rest of the game. Disregarding my loose rounding, can someone explain to me why bulbing is the best option here?
Just 2 things:
1. Are we going to put in some naval defence for our seafood?
2. Settling the GS is 1
and 6*(1.85) =~11/t with library, academy, and monastery. After uni and oxford it's *(2.6) =~15.6 which will break even in 76 turns against a 1200 bulb.Currently, we get 31
, after bureau (+50%) 46 +6 = 52 * 1.85 = 96/turnWith settling: 858+2574 = 3432 @96 ~36 turns for paper and edu
Bulbing about 1200 of edu: 3432-1200 = 2232 @85 ~ 27 turns for paper and edu
Get the uni/oxford 9 turns earlier = 15.6*9 =~140
So we effectively gain 9 turns on the buildings totaling around 140
, weighed against the super-scientist paying a base 6 with between a 1.85 and 3.1 multiplier (~11 to 18/t) for the rest of the game. Disregarding my loose rounding, can someone explain to me why bulbing is the best option here?
culdeus
Emperor
1. No. I never once had a barb invasion at BC or early AD times of the crab. I had the AI do an end around on me several times but that was with a DoW. I don't see this as a major concern. The fog is almost certainly lifted over all of the coast now. There's no way to be 100% certain, but it's a good enough gamble. With the LH even if they pillage it it's still 3F3C right? Not worth diverting hammers at the moment IMO.
2. Good points, and running your math out liberalism only shows up perhaps 6 turns earlier. Maybe 5 depending on how the growth of the cottages and other factors work.
This is a normal game and bulbing in a "in it for the long haul" VC isn't usually my favorite thing.
2. Good points, and running your math out liberalism only shows up perhaps 6 turns earlier. Maybe 5 depending on how the growth of the cottages and other factors work.
This is a normal game and bulbing in a "in it for the long haul" VC isn't usually my favorite thing.
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