culdeus
Emperor
I've never seen a game where the fur got captured by America. When they do settle NYNY I'll test it just to be sure. This should not be a worry for us unless I'm totally missing something.
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
greatbeyond
King
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I think we need to analyze what the benefits are to different worker tasks and prioritize them:
Fur gives us 1 happy, but we won't need that for quite a while.
Mining the Stone gives us 5H
Quarrying the Stone gives 5H
Mining the Marble gives 5H1G
Quarrying the Marble gives 4H2G
Building a Deer Camp gives 4F2H +1 health
Pasturizing the Sheep gives 5F1H +1 health
Crabs gives 4F2G + 1 health
Fur gives us 1F1H4G + 1 health
Based on this:
Deer would be the priority if we want to emphasize production
Crabs would be the priority for research
Either way we go, these should be the first two. The benefit to Deer First is to construct any subsequent units faster, in this case the WB.
This should get us to Pop 3 and close to Pop 4, and if we do not want to adopt a religion (see below) we should then move to the Fur (if it has not been swallowed up by NY) and build a Camp. We will not need to work it right away, we just want the Happiness and we won't get the benefit of Fur until we connect via road. After we reach Size 5 (w/o religion), we can work this tile to help avoid growth.
At this time if we don't have Masonry, we could Mine the Stone as we don't need its enhanced production from a Quarry yet.
After we get Masonry, then Building a Quarry on the Marble becomes a priority. Road the Marble to get its benefits.
Quarry Stone
Pasturize Pigs
Summary:
Tiles to work:
Pop 1 - Crabs - improved
Pop 2 - Crabs and Crabs (until Deer are "camped")
Pop 3 - Crabs, Deer, Crabs
Pop 4 - Crabs, Deer, Crabs, Stone
Pop 5 - Crabs, Crabs, Deer, Stone, Fur (if we have religion, Marble if we don't)
Pop 6 - Crabs, Crabs, Deer, Stone, Marble, Fur
Tiles to improve:
Deer
Mine Stone
Fur
Quarry Marble
Build roads
Quarry Stone
Pigs
Mine PH
We will always have something for the Worker to do
Fur gives us 1 happy, but we won't need that for quite a while.
Mining the Stone gives us 5H
Quarrying the Stone gives 5H
Mining the Marble gives 5H1G
Quarrying the Marble gives 4H2G
Building a Deer Camp gives 4F2H +1 health
Pasturizing the Sheep gives 5F1H +1 health
Crabs gives 4F2G + 1 health
Fur gives us 1F1H4G + 1 health
Based on this:
Deer would be the priority if we want to emphasize production
Crabs would be the priority for research
Either way we go, these should be the first two. The benefit to Deer First is to construct any subsequent units faster, in this case the WB.
This should get us to Pop 3 and close to Pop 4, and if we do not want to adopt a religion (see below) we should then move to the Fur (if it has not been swallowed up by NY) and build a Camp. We will not need to work it right away, we just want the Happiness and we won't get the benefit of Fur until we connect via road. After we reach Size 5 (w/o religion), we can work this tile to help avoid growth.
At this time if we don't have Masonry, we could Mine the Stone as we don't need its enhanced production from a Quarry yet.
After we get Masonry, then Building a Quarry on the Marble becomes a priority. Road the Marble to get its benefits.
Quarry Stone
Pasturize Pigs
Summary:
Tiles to work:
Pop 1 - Crabs - improved
Pop 2 - Crabs and Crabs (until Deer are "camped")
Pop 3 - Crabs, Deer, Crabs
Pop 4 - Crabs, Deer, Crabs, Stone
Pop 5 - Crabs, Crabs, Deer, Stone, Fur (if we have religion, Marble if we don't)
Pop 6 - Crabs, Crabs, Deer, Stone, Marble, Fur
Tiles to improve:
Deer
Mine Stone
Fur
Quarry Marble
Build roads
Quarry Stone
Pigs
Mine PH
We will always have something for the Worker to do
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
Religion - as usual there are lots of strong feelings about this. My initial thoughts on this are that if all of our immediate neighbors have the same religion, it would be a benefit to us to have it. This also depends on what other religions are on our continent if any. Remember, we can always convert back to NSR if our neighbors change religions. The only reason for it (in the early game) is the happiness, allowing us 1 more Pop, and the huge Rep bonus.
We will need to examine this in more detail when the time comes.
We will need to examine this in more detail when the time comes.
Fur is 5, marble 3, etc. You forgot Financial trait. Sheep gets 1 too.
Not sure why you'd think we wouldn't work the Fur tile. That is the #1 tile, especially since we have a ton of food. I imagine that we will work that tile the entire game, more than any other tile except the crabs. The fur has the same 2 hammers as the deer, but it has the awesome 5 commerce, deer has the useless food (useless this early when we're capped by happiness.)
You also said we won't need the happy from Fur for "quite a while". Huh? We need it ASAP. Maybe not for the next turnset, but with all our food we need it. (Keeps us from considering a religion ;-) Health not useful this early.
We don't want the anarchy loss for religion or NSR switch. But the real problem is that once you've been "selected" as the war target (because of heathen religion). It doesn't matter if you switch to their religion. The attack plan against you is underway. They will still declare war when they're ready.
Tiles, in order:
Crabs, Crabs, Fur, Marble, stone
If we want to grow, then Deer instead of stone.
Don't forget to make a cottage on the river (before we'd mine the PH)
I rambled on a few subjects there. Just wanted to plant the seeds of thought. We'll discuss more when the time comes.
Not sure why you'd think we wouldn't work the Fur tile. That is the #1 tile, especially since we have a ton of food. I imagine that we will work that tile the entire game, more than any other tile except the crabs. The fur has the same 2 hammers as the deer, but it has the awesome 5 commerce, deer has the useless food (useless this early when we're capped by happiness.)
You also said we won't need the happy from Fur for "quite a while". Huh? We need it ASAP. Maybe not for the next turnset, but with all our food we need it. (Keeps us from considering a religion ;-) Health not useful this early.
We don't want the anarchy loss for religion or NSR switch. But the real problem is that once you've been "selected" as the war target (because of heathen religion). It doesn't matter if you switch to their religion. The attack plan against you is underway. They will still declare war when they're ready.
Tiles, in order:
Crabs, Crabs, Fur, Marble, stone
If we want to grow, then Deer instead of stone.
Don't forget to make a cottage on the river (before we'd mine the PH)
I rambled on a few subjects there. Just wanted to plant the seeds of thought. We'll discuss more when the time comes.
Since you're next up greatbeyond, please confirm that you're not doing your first plan (the Sheep) or your 2nd plan (the Deer). Does the team agree on Fur?
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I agree that the fur is the most important tile and that we'll use it more often than the others, but in my test game I used the deer tile first to get from pop 2 to pop 3 (and to finish the second Work Boat) between turns 24 and 28. Don't know if that was the optimal choice or not. (My notes from the test game are here.) With that (possible) exception, I agree with WastinTime.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
me, for sure.
We need OB with Wash to get the trade route commerce and to get connected to other civs for resource trades (not to mention the +relations for OB if we hope to keep him from attacking.)
greatbeyond
King
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- 989
You were right WT, I forgot about adding in the commerce bonus for the Financial trait. I think my point was missed about Fur. It will be worked eventually but not in the first X # of turns. Until we reach our happy cap, we need food as the first priority then hammers or Gold. Hammers are more important when we are building things, Gold is more important when we are researching and don't have any buildings/units that have to be built.
We have to be flexible and manage the tiles worked to best achieve our goals. The Fur only has 1F & 2H, I realize it has 5G and could speed up research over Deer, However, I think, I'll have to do some tests to check, that the benefit of getting faster growth (4F vs 1F) is more than worth the slight loss of research from the gold that the Fur gives. This will probably hold true for us for only a few turns.
This is my other point about Fur, there is a good chance that before our culture expands to autoraze NY, they will temporarily get the Fur, I don't want to improve it and give it to them ready to use. Let them improve it for us. I suppose we could test the this by running several test games to see how the expansion works out. If the Fur will stay ours then it moves up it's importance.
IIRC we don't get the happy bonus from Fur until we research The Wheel and connect it with a road. If we don't research it ourselves but try to get in trade after getting Alpha, the soonest we can use Fur is Turn 46 ( by Balthalion's calculations) That is 31 turns of Worker actions we need to work out. Deer do not need a road to get the increased food, nor do mines need a road to get the benefit of their hammers. We should have it all ready to go when we get The Wheel.
Like I said, I will try to run a few different scenarios to find the optimum path for worker actions. If someone else can do the same we can compare results. I know you can over analyze things but in the early game it is essential to make the best actions as even small mistakes compound over time.
It is a good point about OB with Washington as if we don't OB with him we don't get the trade routes.
Question to answer I guess; How does extra Gold from Fur ( working Crabs x2 & Fur) compare to (Crabs x2 & deer) faster growth from improving Deer first.
I don't remember advocating Sheep before Deer. I will work late, running tests to see what looks best and check comments in ~ 4 - 6 hours. Unless of course the majority wants to just stop talking and continue playing. I believe in Democracy and if the majority wants a different path from what I think then, majority rules. I have been known to be wrong.
We have to be flexible and manage the tiles worked to best achieve our goals. The Fur only has 1F & 2H, I realize it has 5G and could speed up research over Deer, However, I think, I'll have to do some tests to check, that the benefit of getting faster growth (4F vs 1F) is more than worth the slight loss of research from the gold that the Fur gives. This will probably hold true for us for only a few turns.
This is my other point about Fur, there is a good chance that before our culture expands to autoraze NY, they will temporarily get the Fur, I don't want to improve it and give it to them ready to use. Let them improve it for us. I suppose we could test the this by running several test games to see how the expansion works out. If the Fur will stay ours then it moves up it's importance.
IIRC we don't get the happy bonus from Fur until we research The Wheel and connect it with a road. If we don't research it ourselves but try to get in trade after getting Alpha, the soonest we can use Fur is Turn 46 ( by Balthalion's calculations) That is 31 turns of Worker actions we need to work out. Deer do not need a road to get the increased food, nor do mines need a road to get the benefit of their hammers. We should have it all ready to go when we get The Wheel.
Like I said, I will try to run a few different scenarios to find the optimum path for worker actions. If someone else can do the same we can compare results. I know you can over analyze things but in the early game it is essential to make the best actions as even small mistakes compound over time.
It is a good point about OB with Washington as if we don't OB with him we don't get the trade routes.
Question to answer I guess; How does extra Gold from Fur ( working Crabs x2 & Fur) compare to (Crabs x2 & deer) faster growth from improving Deer first.
I don't remember advocating Sheep before Deer. I will work late, running tests to see what looks best and check comments in ~ 4 - 6 hours. Unless of course the majority wants to just stop talking and continue playing. I believe in Democracy and if the majority wants a different path from what I think then, majority rules. I have been known to be wrong.
We're stuck at size 4 for the first 50 turns, so the way I approach this food/gold option is to prioritize gold, but make sure I'm at size 4 when the library finishes. This allows me to have 2 scientists immediately. So food only takes priority if needed to reach 4 in time. IIRC the test game didn't have a food problem.
Technically, our warrior should go and explore the snow to the west to reveal the water tile. Having that open coastline is good for trade routes. It's not a big deal because our border pop will handle it, but it's good practice to look for things like this.
(p.s. There's that sheep plan.)
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I agree that too much testing is almost always better than not enough testing. I'm sorry I can't help with this because I'll be away from home until Wednesday. Dare I suggest that an over-detailed game plan (like the one from the first turnset) might be a good idea to reconsider too?
(
)Okay, but wasn't it not opening borders that saved us from getting attacked by aggressive leaders like Khan in the test game? I'll take your word for it that Washington will behave differently (and it makes sense to me that he would behave differently), but wow how crazy is that -- when to avoid getting DOWed by one AI you need to close borders and to avoid being DOWed by another AI you need to open borders? This is making me dizzy...
I get it. That is what I didn't do in the test games I played. I figured (like greatbeyond) that it would always be better to grow as fast as possible first. I wish I could get home and re-do the test by dropping the deer and using the fur from about turn 24 on. Hey culdeus, you did a great job with that "Plan A" test. Any chance you could run a comparison for us (or at least, for me)? I wonder if changing to the fur could improve our alphabet date too?
@ dutchfire: Thanks for posting the information about culture mechanics. I'm still having trouble trying to figure out the equation that makes it all work on the fur tile, but maybe I'll try to tackle that full article tonight since I don't have access to the game. Anyway, thanks for posting the information. I REALLY hope WastinTime is right about keeping control of the tile though. (He's usually right though... so I'm not too worried!
)greatbeyond
King
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- 989
Sometimes the brain forgets what the mouth has said
I'm hoping that my fingers had a mind of their own and weren't being controlled by the brain.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I tried to do a quick calculation of the "plot culture" for our fur tile and the results are disappointing. I probably screwed up the calculation somehow, but now I really think we ought to test this before sending the worker to the fur. Check out the following tabs to see what I'm talking about.
Calculating "Plot Culture" According to the "Culture Mechanics" Article:
My Calculations for the Fur Tile:
Calculating "Plot Culture" According to the "Culture Mechanics" Article:
Spoiler :
My Calculations for the Fur Tile:
Spoiler :
. The Deity discount for AI production is cost x 0.60, so 30 x 0.6 = 18
A. Washington probably doesn't even have Mysticism.
B. Even if he does, he won't build a monument.
C. The only way I would even worry about this is if he founds a religion there.
D. If he does take Fur from us, it's not the end of the world. He won't destroy the improvement, the boost from that tile won't be enough to affect his game much.
This culture study is very interesting, so don't let me stop you, but let's not panic.
B. Even if he does, he won't build a monument.
C. The only way I would even worry about this is if he founds a religion there.
D. If he does take Fur from us, it's not the end of the world. He won't destroy the improvement, the boost from that tile won't be enough to affect his game much.
This culture study is very interesting, so don't let me stop you, but let's not panic.
Agree on working the fur.
Looks like the fur will be a heavy cultural fight, the cows will be lost, and the silver will be ours for the early game.
edit: Wait, that city south of us is Washington I suppose, so if the Americans decide to go wonderhappy, we might lose the silver and cows too.
Looks like the fur will be a heavy cultural fight, the cows will be lost, and the silver will be ours for the early game.
edit: Wait, that city south of us is Washington I suppose, so if the Americans decide to go wonderhappy, we might lose the silver and cows too.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
First of all, Wash didn't start with Myst, and often he does not research it as a priority.
He usualy goes for worker and military techs in the beginning.
We can never know, but i'll be surprised if he put an obelisk there before turn 40, if ever he decide to build it.
For the cows and silver things are different, since we'll have 2 capital fighting, but Washington is helped by NY.
This is why i'm not concerned for furs.
Sure like hell, if we have copper, and he don't we'll build a nice stack of axes and resolve the problem once and for all.
Let's hope no early religion spreads to America, so we do not have too much negative modifiers in our relations.
And don't ask me if i'm in favour of a war with Wash when this will be possible, i already voted.
He usualy goes for worker and military techs in the beginning.
We can never know, but i'll be surprised if he put an obelisk there before turn 40, if ever he decide to build it.
For the cows and silver things are different, since we'll have 2 capital fighting, but Washington is helped by NY.
This is why i'm not concerned for furs.
Sure like hell, if we have copper, and he don't we'll build a nice stack of axes and resolve the problem once and for all.
Let's hope no early religion spreads to America, so we do not have too much negative modifiers in our relations.
And don't ask me if i'm in favour of a war with Wash when this will be possible, i already voted.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Okay, fair enough. This is why experience counts for so much more than being able to read an article!
It will be interesting to watch for when/if Washington does build an obelisk just to be able to count the turns and see if the model is correct. If he delays until about turn 26 or later, then according to the calculations given in the article and in my previous post we may not ever lose the fur. I would wonder about whether the AI was really that stupid, but honestly, with five mountains, two ice, four tundra and 5 enemy tiles in New York's FC it really was a tremendously stupid place to put a city in the first place.
So, is this the preferred order for improving tiles now:
1. Fur
2. Marble
3. Stone
4. Sheep
5. Deer (or reposition to road the fur, if close to alphabet)
When you say stone, you mean mine it, right? We'll probably mine the stone before marble. A stone quarry isn't really needed until Oxford. The marble quarry however, gives us the precious (commerce).
culdeus
Emperor
And just to be clear only the fur needs a road ASAP.
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