See this is one of those theories that is most likely a myth. I always outright refuse trades.
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
See this is one of those theories that is most likely a myth. I always outright refuse trades.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Here is a test game generated from a new map that I've modified to resemble SG07. I didn't even try to make an exact copy of every tile we know, but I have done my best to get at least the basics correct. Hopefully it will be useful (or at least fun). Please let me know if anyone finds errors that should be corrected.
- The starting location is the same (both FC and several tiles distance from that).
- All eight known AIs are included in roughly the same locations as in SG07, though their starting tiles (FC) are not the same as in our game. (Be warned that similarity decreases as distance from our city site increases though.)
- All goody huts have been removed (unless I missed something).
- Two additional civs were added to our continent to make a total of 10.
Additional Spoiler Information:
Spoiler :
EDIT: Ugh. I don't know what happened, but I guess I didn't create it in the HOF mod format, so no HOF screens. Apologies. Will try for better later if I can find time this weekend.
EDIT 2: I removed the attachment because there is a better (HOF enabled) test game below (see Post #333).
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
So you're saying that your experience never faced a scenario like this? well, anyway it's surely better than mine.
This end? if you're meaning the game, in 3 months from the start, or tomorrow if Washington sends 3 archers in next TS.
In any case i hope you enjoyed this experience, and that maybe you and the other "newbies" of the team will stay with us for next SG, too.
BTW Sweeta, are you lost again in some desert with your kangaroo?
Wow, 3 months. I thought "Game of the Month" meant 1 month. I was worried we were playing too slowly. I guess not.
This scenario is actually illegal for HOF, so when we get a 1400 AD space race win, we can't post it
I only remember one time playing all 18 civs back when the HOF was in beta.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Yes, it's correct, but for the solo games (the GotM forum is linked on the top and end of the page, if you like to take a look).
For obvious reasons, they give more time for a SG.
Sabre
Cheftain
The "GOTM" part of SGOTM is only there because it is a succession game based on the game of the month concept - a competition using a common map. The time frame is loosely based on how fast teams are finishing (or was back when I was playing SGOTM for CIVIII). So discuss away! I'm thoroughly enjoying the thread and learning great stuff. 
I was working on a mod for a while and compiled a few CvGameCoreDLL's along with some Python and XML work. I don't want to take the mystery out of the game and pick apart the AI code too much. I think I enjoy it more playing on my theories. Is there something specific you'd like to know about the AI?
EDIT: The code you're probably interested in is C++, not Python.
EDIT: The code you're probably interested in is C++, not Python.
I took a quick look around and I found something interesting. I only spent a minute looking at the surrounding code, so I could be off, but here's the meaning I get from it:
They only consider whether their defensive Power is less than our Power if they are less than Pleased with us. Once Pleased they ignore Power. This would make sense. In my games I try to keep everyone Pleased. That is impossible with 17 opponents, but it works for normal games.
They only consider whether their defensive Power is less than our Power if they are less than Pleased with us. Once Pleased they ignore Power. This would make sense. In my games I try to keep everyone Pleased. That is impossible with 17 opponents, but it works for normal games.
Code:
switch (AI_getAttitude(kTriggeredData.m_eOtherPlayer))
{
case ATTITUDE_FURIOUS:
case ATTITUDE_ANNOYED:
case ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS:
if (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getDefensivePower() < GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(kTriggeredData.m_eOtherPlayer).getTeam()).getPower(true))
{
return -MAX_INT + 1;
}
break;
case ATTITUDE_PLEASED:
case ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY:
return -MAX_INT + 1;
break;
}
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
So... we better get some power going, stat.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Okay, this one is HOF mod ready and it seems to replicate the current SGOTM better too. Washington even settled New York in the same location when I gave it a quick run-through.
All the other warnings I gave before still apply: This is a test game generated from a new map that I've modified to resemble SG07. I didn't even try to make an exact copy of every tile we know, but I have done my best to get at least the basics correct. Hopefully it will be useful (or at least fun). Please let me know if anyone finds errors that should be corrected.
Additional Spoiler Information:
EDIT #1: Version "v03" is attached (May 3, 2008)
EDIT #2: Version "v04" fixes the ice to NE of start (May 3, 2008)
.
All the other warnings I gave before still apply: This is a test game generated from a new map that I've modified to resemble SG07. I didn't even try to make an exact copy of every tile we know, but I have done my best to get at least the basics correct. Hopefully it will be useful (or at least fun). Please let me know if anyone finds errors that should be corrected.
- The starting location is the same (both FC and several tiles distance from that).
- All eight known AIs are included in roughly the same locations as in SG07, though their starting tiles (FC) are not the same as in our game. (Be warned that similarity decreases as distance from our city site increases.)
- All goody huts have been removed (unless I missed something).
- Two additional civs were added to our continent to make a total of 10.
Additional Spoiler Information:
Spoiler :
EDIT #1: Version "v03" is attached (May 3, 2008)
EDIT #2: Version "v04" fixes the ice to NE of start (May 3, 2008)
.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Really sorry for going AWOL 
A bunch of old friends came to town for a birthday, I got quite drunk and am still struggling with a hangover. 
I will definitely play later today when my head clears, and I've had a chance to read through the last 2 pages. Many apologies.
A bunch of old friends came to town for a birthday, I got quite drunk and am still struggling with a hangover. I will definitely play later today when my head clears, and I've had a chance to read through the last 2 pages. Many apologies.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Alright, now I think we ARE making too much of this power thing. I just played the testgame posted above and followed the "one warrior garrison" strategy until after the Great Library. I kept borders closed with Alex and Izzy, but OB with everyone else and deliberately tried to provoke everyone but George (including HC and Fred). In fact, I refused every demand from everyone but Mansa and George. There were NO DOWs all the way through to LIBERALISM. I played sloppy and still made it there first. Honestly, we are SO going to KICK this game's A**! 
Washington isn't going to DOW. He scared me right before I got to Alphabet by building a stack of about four swordsmen, two axemen, and a bunch of archers in New York, but he NEVER DOWed -- despite my one pitiful little warrior being there in plain view. If he didn't DOW then, I don't know what it would take to get him to do it -- the pansy. The "power differential" was about the same as it would have been if I were take on Michael Jordan in a game of one-on-one hoops. 
I still think Khan would have ripped me apart in a heartbeat, but... the moral of the story: George isn't Khan. HC isn't Khan. And I don't know about Alex or Izzy, but whether it was the closed borders or not they stayed in their kennels too.
----------------------
One more thought: Generating all those WorldBuilder maps to try to get the goofy thing to work right (with no hiccups or "palantirs" and such) taught me something else -- most of the continents created with these conditions are far longer North to South than they are wide from East to West. I doubt very much that Mansa is hiding to the East (it just doesn't look like there would be enough room), but I suspect more strongly than ever that we are going to find at least one and maybe two more civs somewhere to the Southwest. Let's hope that is where Mansa is hiding!
Washington isn't going to DOW. He scared me right before I got to Alphabet by building a stack of about four swordsmen, two axemen, and a bunch of archers in New York, but he NEVER DOWed -- despite my one pitiful little warrior being there in plain view. If he didn't DOW then, I don't know what it would take to get him to do it -- the pansy.
The "power differential" was about the same as it would have been if I were take on Michael Jordan in a game of one-on-one hoops. I still think Khan would have ripped me apart in a heartbeat, but... the moral of the story: George isn't Khan. HC isn't Khan. And I don't know about Alex or Izzy, but whether it was the closed borders or not they stayed in their kennels too.
----------------------
One more thought: Generating all those WorldBuilder maps to try to get the goofy thing to work right (with no hiccups or "palantirs" and such) taught me something else -- most of the continents created with these conditions are far longer North to South than they are wide from East to West. I doubt very much that Mansa is hiding to the East (it just doesn't look like there would be enough room), but I suspect more strongly than ever that we are going to find at least one and maybe two more civs somewhere to the Southwest. Let's hope that is where Mansa is hiding!
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Doh! Crowed too soon! 
This time I got a DOW out of Alex about two turns before getting Literature. 
I was still trying to provoke everyone by refusing all demands, but this time I was playing more carefully (in other ways) and was further ahead in tech. I wonder if having a greater tech lead could more easily provoke a DOW?
Anyway, I think I'll try a game now where I split the difference -- I'll still run closed borders with only Alex, Izzy, & Monty, but also give in to whatever they demand too. Washington is still being Mr. Nice Guy.
This time I got a DOW out of Alex about two turns before getting Literature. I was still trying to provoke everyone by refusing all demands, but this time I was playing more carefully (in other ways) and was further ahead in tech. I wonder if having a greater tech lead could more easily provoke a DOW?Anyway, I think I'll try a game now where I split the difference -- I'll still run closed borders with only Alex, Izzy, & Monty, but also give in to whatever they demand too. Washington is still being Mr. Nice Guy.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
What fun! First to Liberalism -- by 25 BC don'tchaknow -- and me & my buddy Mansa are way ahead on Tech! 
(I think I'm beginning to see why WT wants to find him so badly! ) I have to admit, I did get one DOW though. It came from Izzy about two turns before Liberalism and she attacked me with... wait for it... her "stack of doom" consisting of one axeman and three archers! My Maceman, 2 LBs, and spearman managed to hold the city just fine. She did manage to make a mess of the place with a follow-up attack (frik'n chariots -- ... chariots! ), but... whatever. She paid for it when the time came to sue for peace. I think I refused some tech demand she came whining to me about earlier that I probably could have given in on, but... I just don't like her preachy, grander-than-thou attitude, ya know. 
Anyway, as culdeus said before, it's time to rock and roll! Washington is a sissy, and if we're reasonably measured about how we treat political demands from the other AIs we're going to be fine... Better than fine -- We're going to rule. Let's get this juggernaut out of drydock and go kick some AI ass.
(I think I'm beginning to see why WT wants to find him so badly! ) I have to admit, I did get one DOW though. It came from Izzy about two turns before Liberalism and she attacked me with... wait for it... her "stack of doom" consisting of one axeman and three archers! My Maceman, 2 LBs, and spearman managed to hold the city just fine. She did manage to make a mess of the place with a follow-up attack (frik'n chariots -- ... chariots! ), but... whatever. She paid for it when the time came to sue for peace. I think I refused some tech demand she came whining to me about earlier that I probably could have given in on, but... I just don't like her preachy, grander-than-thou attitude, ya know. Anyway, as culdeus said before, it's time to rock and roll! Washington is a sissy, and if we're reasonably measured about how we treat political demands from the other AIs we're going to be fine... Better than fine -- We're going to rule. Let's get this juggernaut out of drydock and go kick some AI ass.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Trade time here
Well, we planned it out, so you should all know how it went. Alpha is in, the library is complete, and the scientists are working away. The worker pastured the sheep and is yet to move this turn (in case we decide to get masonry this turn). The exploring warrior found Kublai Kahn and Julius Caesar.
We have OBs with JC, and have found Rome. OB was closed with HC a couple of turns ago, but remain open with Fred, as the warrior was moving thru. Alex turned Jewish, which means there is another civ up near him, probably to the west. Hopefully Lizzy won't convert, but we'll see.
Science is set to 0% on Drama, and the city will grow next turn, so must be MMd so that doesn't happen. Really, though, we are most interested in trades. We will get a little mileage out of writing. I asked each civ without writing what they'd pay:
Fred - wheel
KK - myst and wheel
Alex - myst and wheel
HC - myst
Izzy - myst and wheel
Wash - myst and wheel
On top of that, Izzy is willing to trade masonry!! That sounds dangerous. We can also pick up archery, but noone is willing to part with BW, as expected.
Spoiler log :
Spoiler info :
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Sweetly done, Mr. Sweetaschon! Asoka's even got math already. I bet someone else has IW too. This game is going faster than the test game -- should have put in more financial resources. Still, this might make the trading easier. First a couple turns passing writing around and then go right to alphabet.
We Need Mysticism in order to start researching Poly ourselves. After that, just thinking out loud, I'd also prioritize Archery, The Wheel, and Mansory -- but not necessarily in that order. Archery would be nice to get our power graph up. Either The Wheel or Masory is needed to keep our worker from becoming lazy. I'll be interested to hear what WT has to say about this round. Only six of ten still need writing. Well, that's not too bad, I suppose!
No Mansa.
Did anyone make any political demands yet?
We Need Mysticism in order to start researching Poly ourselves. After that, just thinking out loud, I'd also prioritize Archery, The Wheel, and Mansory -- but not necessarily in that order. Archery would be nice to get our power graph up. Either The Wheel or Masory is needed to keep our worker from becoming lazy. I'll be interested to hear what WT has to say about this round. Only six of ten still need writing. Well, that's not too bad, I suppose!
No Mansa.
Did anyone make any political demands yet?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
OK, a well released plan!
so first round of trades:
wri for Myst+Wheel to KK (i prefer) or Wash
wri for masonry to Izzy
wri for archery to HC or KK
second round
wri + masonry for BW to Alex
hopefully Poly will come in trade, i don't think asoka still has the monopoly.
don't forget pottery,
in the third round (if all goes well) we can be able to see if anyone has IW and perhaps trade for it
same for priest: if we can obtain it do we try a shot to the Oracle? or it pollutes our GSs?
I'll keep research to 0 for the first turn, then i'll go 100% on drama?
I got the save (not open yet), i'll play tonight if i have time and there's enough comments to this one, or tomorrow night.
I'll play 'til turn 55-56, and from now on (since i've not seen complaints) this will be the rule:
inherited turn + 7 complete turns + an half of the eighth one
Of course Alex can self-discover masonry when we'll be ready to trade, and in that case we need to trade alpha for BW (horrible) suggestions? But i hope he lacks copper and that he's researching IW.
Or wait another turn hoping to get another tech he lacks.
Oh well, you know i usually am a good trader (remember? i'm Venetian - circa)
so first round of trades:
wri for Myst+Wheel to KK (i prefer) or Wash
wri for masonry to Izzy
wri for archery to HC or KK
second round
wri + masonry for BW to Alex
hopefully Poly will come in trade, i don't think asoka still has the monopoly.
don't forget pottery,
in the third round (if all goes well) we can be able to see if anyone has IW and perhaps trade for it
same for priest: if we can obtain it do we try a shot to the Oracle? or it pollutes our GSs?
I'll keep research to 0 for the first turn, then i'll go 100% on drama?
I got the save (not open yet), i'll play tonight if i have time and there's enough comments to this one, or tomorrow night.
I'll play 'til turn 55-56, and from now on (since i've not seen complaints) this will be the rule:
inherited turn + 7 complete turns + an half of the eighth one
Of course Alex can self-discover masonry when we'll be ready to trade, and in that case we need to trade alpha for BW (horrible) suggestions? But i hope he lacks copper and that he's researching IW.
Or wait another turn hoping to get another tech he lacks.
Oh well, you know i usually am a good trader (remember? i'm Venetian - circa)
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