SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[Sabre]

0 - Turn 55 (1800bc)

Trade Iron Working to Asoka for Priesthood
Switch production to Axeman
MM marble to clams - reasoning: this finishes axe same turn Lit comes in while growing food so that we have more hammer turns on the GL
Furs at 44%

1 - Turn 56 (1760bc)

Washington will not give Mono for Priest and Sailing
Move worker to E GLForest via furs, save game with NY in view - no culture buildings visible

ibt - Isabella demands Iron Working - I give it (gain +3 in standing)

2 - Turn 57 (1720bc)

Learn Literature - begin Code of Laws (Drama is 13t fyi)
Good new everyone! Hinduism spreads to Beijing - I decline on converting
Axeman finishes - begin Great Library

ibt - Elizabeth offers Monotheism for Literature - I decline the offer. Maybe in a handful of turns when we'd built up a good headstart on GL I'd consider trading Lit, but now feels too soon and Mono is a tech we can get soon anyway.

3 - Turn 58 (1680bc)

Bad news everyone! Nottingham was built on the tundra next to our crabs and clams.
India has Incense available! Trade deer for incense
MM for growth in 2 turns

4 - Turn 59 (1640bc)

GS Merit Ptah is born - build Academy
MM scientists

ibt - Isabella demands Alphabet - I give it

5 - Turn 60 (1600bc)

Grow to pop 5
MM - marble, stone, deer, sheep and plains hill forest
+0 food, Great Library built in 7 turns
reached 46% culture on both furs and silver

ibt - Isabella dema... err, completes the Parthenon

6 - Turn 61 (1560bc)

47% culture on silver - that gained fast!
Gold has become available from Rome, but he only needs marble/bronze. With incense and an available temple I'm not sure how much we need another happy point right now anyway.
Asoka makes Math available, but won't accept Alphabet
Fred and HC now have Math but won't trade yet
Washington has Monarchy but won't trade

7 - Turn 62 (1520bc)

47% culture on furs, 48% on silver - both should be ours soon
Trade Alphabet, Priesthood to Huayna Capac for Mathematics
Nice way to end my turnset

The good - Great Library will be finished in a few turns
We have a religion
We have incense
Our culture push on the furs and silver is going well
We have an academy
We have Mathematics
Our relations with the other civs is now all +'s, up to a whopping +7 to Isabella thanks to:

The bad - Gave into demands of Iron Working and Alphabet from Isabella
Nottingham is stealing our clams and crabs and possibly our fish

The ugly - hopefully nothing
I wasn't sure on the Alphabet demand, but my biggest fear right now is a war dec and getting high standings with an ornery character like Izzy gives us a little breathing room with her.

The game log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1800 BC to 1520 BC:

Turn 55, 1800 BC: Logging Game to File: sgotm.txt
Turn 55, 1800 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered Literature!
Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 56, 1760 BC: Hinduism has spread in Beijing.

Turn 58, 1680 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in Beijing!

Turn 59, 1640 BC: Beijing has grown to size 5

Turn 60, 1600 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in a far away land!
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Alexander adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Nabu-rimanni has been born in a far away land!
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Isabella has completed The Parthenon!

Turn 61, 1560 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Asoka, Kublai Khan
Turn 61, 1560 BC: Kublai Khan adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 62, 1520 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Elizabeth, Huayna Capac
Turn 62, 1520 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

The autolog:

Spoiler :

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 55/460 (1800 BC) [07-May-2008 18:42:37]
Tech learned: Priesthood
Beijing begins: Axeman (1 turns)

Turn 56/460 (1760 BC) [07-May-2008 19:07:51]
Tech learned: Literature
Beijing finishes: Axeman
Hinduism has spread: Beijing

Turn 57/460 (1720 BC) [07-May-2008 19:23:06]
Research begun: Code of Laws (15 Turns)
Beijing begins: The Great Library (50 turns)

Turn 58/460 (1680 BC) [07-May-2008 19:38:21]
Merit Ptah (Great Scientist) born in Beijing

Turn 59/460 (1640 BC) [07-May-2008 20:10:15]
Beijing finishes: Academy
Beijing grows: 5
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Washington(America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Washington(America), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 60/460 (1600 BC) [07-May-2008 20:15:00]
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Washington(America), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 61/460 (1560 BC) [07-May-2008 20:24:14]
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 62/460 (1520 BC) [07-May-2008 20:35:07]
Tech learned: Mathematics

 

[culdeus]

There's a lot to digest here, but it looks pretty good. I guess giving in to izzy 2x was ok. We can go to size 6 now? Yes?

random thoughts:

We should be able to put that tundra city in revolt at some point I'd think.

Graph gazing we weren't the last ones to get a religion. Perhaps this is modified by difficulty?

I think we are extremely lucky with the feelings the AI has to us. And having Izzy at +7 is sweet. That's definitely a girl you don't want to get crossways with.

 

[Sweetacshon]

The bad - Gave into demands of Iron Working and Alphabet from Isabella
Nottingham is stealing our clams and crabs and possibly our fish

Yep, neither of these is that bad. I'm confident we will crush Nottingham culturally, and those techs are a fair price for +7, as we have some room to maneuvre with one of the crazies.

Excellent turns, but you only played 7 - are you playing more?

 

[greatbeyond]

Demands like those Isabella made will probably become more common. In my mind if they have a tech we want, it is better to trade it before they demand it and get something besides just the + relations.

As for Nottingham, I 'm not too worried as our culture will hopefully cause it to flip to us very soon. Luckily we have a two other good sources of food. The commerce will be missed.

 

[MacBalt]

Great turnset Sabre! Well Played -- I agree with all the decisions you made. Giving in to Isabella was smart IMHO, & I wouldn't worry about Nottingham. I think we'll overwhelm it with our snappy Chinese culture before we need the extra health. Funny that no one has demanded the crabs yet.

Move worker to E GLForest via furs, save game with NY in view - no culture buildings visible

Good new everyone! Hinduism spreads to Beijing - I decline on converting.

Finally. Good decision too.

ibt - Elizabeth offers Monotheism for Literature - I decline the offer. Maybe in a handful of turns when we'd built up a good headstart on GL I'd consider trading Lit, but now feels too soon and Mono is a tech we can get soon anyway.

I like this decision too.

India has Incense available! Trade deer for incense

Ok! Now our population can grow and we should be smoothly on our way to the next plateau. Next stop Civil Service, then 1st to Liberalism. In the meantime, I'd like to get as much of our continent explored as possible (without risking too much by OB with the wrong AI). I'd like to get another test game ready to go so I can get some experience with the next stages of the game and try some possible strategies. My experience on this level will be back to about zero once we pass Liberalism.

I think we are extremely lucky with the feelings the AI has to us. And having Izzy at +7 is sweet. That's definitely a girl you don't want to get crossways with.

Let's see if we can get her crossways with someone else instead. I haven't checked yet -- are she and Alex still disagreeing about the nature of life & love in the ancient world?

those techs are a fair price for +7, as we have some room to maneuvre with one of the crazies.

Agree completely. I wonder if we can get Izzy to do anything delightfully stupid while we are still at +7 with her?

 

[greatbeyond]

Switching from the Pigs to the Clams lets us still get the GL in 5 Turns but cuts the time for COL from 11T to 9T.

 

[MacBalt]

Just checked the save. I think I see a Library in New York. Don't know when it appeared, but it will mean New York's borders are probably going to pop sooner rather than later. Even if we get the furs back before they pop, we won't keep them long. We'll get the silver first (and hopefully keep it ). Anyway, it won't really matter. I think we'll have Monarchy before our lack of fur can inhibit our growth again.

Nottingham, on the other hand, could be more of a problem than I thought. It is far enough away that overwhelming it with culture is going to take a while. We'll probably lose access to the iron for some few turns too. The good news is I think we'll probably be able to hold onto the fish. And maybe it won't be so bad... Doesn't look like there is much production value in that icy little outpost.

Hey, does anybody have any smart ideas about who the French and Russian AIs on the other continent(s) might be?

Is it going to be:

1. Catherine and Louis XIV?
2. Catherine and Napoleon?
3. Peter and Louis XIV?
4. Peter and Napoleon?

Is it worth a vote, or does someone think they know how the mysterious mind of Gyathaar works when it comes to creating masterpieces like this?

EDIT: Hey Sabre, did you get a count on the military units in New York when the worker passed by? Did he have any axes and/or swords, or does Washington really lack metals?

 

[WastinTime]

Very well played. I always seem to have some (constructive) criticism, but not this time. Great work on the axeman and MM in general.

Don't forget the forest -- that's being cottaged, right? (we can allow it to be chopped cus we have math--Nice work again Sabre!). That means GL earlier. Then it's time for some growth. Like greatbeyond mentioned, we need to try to spend as much time as possible on the crabs...and on that new cottage. Marble is still a good tile because of the commerce, but prolly drop the stone after GLIB.

 

[BLubmuz]

Seems a good and lucky TS, Sabre.
Pity that city on ice, but i think that with religion+library+academy+GLib and a temple soon it will flip.
I suppose that when you wrote "i decline to convert" you meant that you decided to do nothing (well done) not that someone asked you to convert.

Let's hear WT for this: do we convert if asked, or else?

I agree with all your decisions, especially for Literature: a Deity AI can build anything in no time.

What about to build a monument if it doesn't cost much?
It's culture never obsolete.
Next build will be barracks, unless you'll find the monument a good idea.

 

[Sweetacshon]

EDIT: Hey Sabre, did you get a count on the military units in New York when the worker passed by? Did he have any axes and/or swords, or does Washington really lack metals?

Move worker to E GLForest via furs, save game with NY in view - no culture buildings visible

Does this mean you got a screenshot??(I'm determined not to open civ 'til after my exam ) Well, if you uploaded, I guess your turns are over Who's up, boss? The direction seems pretty straight forward, with trades, diplo, or DoWs a possibility of throwing us a curve ball.

 

[Sabre]

Yep, neither of these is that bad. I'm confident we will crush Nottingham culturally, and those techs are a fair price for +7, as we have some room to maneuvre with one of the crazies.

Excellent turns, but you only played 7 - are you playing more?

I had to head to work and I didn't want to rush anything (I'm a very slow player in SGOTM's) so I figured that was a good place to stop. I could play some more tomorrow (later today for non-night shifters), but I'm ok with what I've played if dutchfire would like to take over.

Culdeus - We can grow to 6 once we build a temple or get one of our lux's back

Balthalion - Alex hates everyone (except us) and everyone hates Alex. HC and Izzy are both -4 towards Alex.

New York at 1760bc with military garrison shown - 7 archers with 6 archers around the city, no metal troops to be seen:



New York at 1520bc - and yeah that does look like a library there



WastinTime - yeah that forest is being cottaged and should be finished next turn I believe. I think that will take 2 turns off the Great Library.

BLubmuz - I just chose not to convert at the religion announcement screen - no demands were made. As for what we do if we are asked to convert, I'd lean towards declining. It's a relations hit to one civ, but converting would be relations hits to multiple nations unless we converted back in 10 turns and that would waste 2 turns on anarchy.

I don't think we get Monuments in Vanilla Civ. Obelisks are obsoleted by Calendar. I would say either a temple or finishing the barracks would be a good next build.

 

[BLubmuz]

Sabre, 7 turns are fine with our new rule, perhaps one more, but not a great deal, i think.

Sweeta, if you missed it:
our TSs, starting from Sabre are: IT + 7 played
this way we can discuss any event without bother to save and inform the team, the actual play time is very short and we can be more focused on the game (7*9=63 turns, on normal 2 ages, if we go for 10*9 we lost anything).

I think we must scout Wash land.

Religion: i let WT decide, but if an AI ask to convert it's a big boost with all the Hindu AI, not only with the asking one. Of course we go down with the buddist ones.
If the demand comes *when* we're researching Liberalism, we can surely refuse, but if it comes in few turns...

Monument, obelisk... well whatever they are, my question is still there: if we want to culture-bomb that english town every weapon is good. And don't forget America (George W).

It comes in mind only now, but GLib before 1000 BC is a great date.

A roster, even if i updated the first page:
dutchfire - UP
Merum - on deck
culdeus - to close the 1st round
Balthalion - to begin the 2nd
greatbeyond
WastinTime
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz
Sabre - resting

Graph gazing:
i think that U.S., Trash, Choko, X team, Smurkz, and Mistfits went for an early wonder (pyramids, SH?)
I think they're paying this choice in delay of trades, our power grew thanks to trades, their lines do not show a great trading, or they are delayed (U.S.)
It seems also that some team went for an early military tech (Realms)
Pity for Pyramids, we could have built, but i think our strategy will pay in the long term.
We also seem the only team started with a worker build.
CRC is behind in terms os play, let's watch them.
Not clear why the graph of some team shows "3" until turn 20

 

[Sweetacshon]

our TSs, starting from Sabre are: IT + 7 played

Ah ha. So I did, and therein lies the confusion.

The culture buildings are surely necessary, but let's not forget that most basic of infrastructure, the granary. We're going to need it now that s are coming in, but certainly before the GT. As for NY, it also looks a bit like a temple is there, but without loading the save, I'm not sure.

Converting sounds OK to me if someone asks. There is enough hatred around to do this imo, especially with Izzy's attitude

 

[culdeus]

New York at 1760bc with military garrison shown - 7 archers with 6 archers around the city, no metal troops to be seen:

 

[culdeus]

Someone is going to have to explain to me what the "power" means on the civfanatics graph then. I'm confused.

What's the next three techs and the next three builds as planned?

Finish COL
CS (aided by GL)
Drama

Build GL
Temple
Obelisk
Theater
Globe

 

[MacBalt]

I think we'll be able to trade for Drama. Let's go right to paper - education - liberalism. We'll need to hire some scientists again soon to bulb philosophy (and then maybe part of education too -- is that right WT?)

On the build order: I agree with Sweetaschon that a granary ought to be prioritized soon. With some luck we'll be able to get monarchy for COL. Maybe after the temple? Also, we should be able to build a monastery soon too. The extra 10% science (& +2 culture) will be worth having before too long. Calendar is coming up so fast I think we might have to consider skipping the obelisk.

For all you ever wanted to know about the power graph, see this article.

 

[BLubmuz]

My idea of obelisk was right after the GLib, or never: we can't exitate to grab calendar ASAP.
To be clear: if an obelisk cost 2 turns, go ahead and build it. If it costs more forget it.
But you're right, a monastery not only boosts our research, but also our culture.
Not sure if it's worth burn a GS on Philo, unless we can found Tao.
At Deity we need 2 GS for Edu.
Anyway WT knows better this mechanics.

Culdeus, the power graph is complicated: it not only counts the units, but also the buildings and the military techs (in an extended concept).
When i addressed Merum to the link Balth provides above, he thought i was jocking.
To make it simple: you can lack actual power (units) but have a good power stat. Sometime even viceversa, if you have a good number of axes but you don't know IW, sailing or other "military" techs.
Not talking about the GNP one, only in BtS they adjusted it to show something decent to compare.

No one talked about this: i suppose we do NOT revolt to slavery, do we adopt CS? and when?

 

[MacBalt]

No one talked about this: i suppose we do NOT revolt to slavery, do we adopt CS? and when?

This is a question we'll have to put to WastinTime.

In my test games, I waited until Civil Service and then revolted to Bureaucracy, Hereditary Rule, Caste System and Pacifism all at once (for 2 turns of anarchy). That path seemed good to me, but I bet WastinTime has a better one. What did you do at this point in your test games Sweetaschon?

On the build order: just to be clear, whatever we decide should come next I think we should finish the barracks first so we don't lose the hammers we've already got invested in it.

 

[culdeus]

Ok, then I'd say the most odd graph to date is real ms. It's just impossible to tell what they are up to.

I think someone made the point before, but eventually we have to think about getting archery for our UU. NYNY is going to ruin our mid and late game if we can't take care of it. Chos are very underrated. I like loading them up with lots of first strike upgrades. A stack of chos and swords and NYNY should fall and can just play defense/pillage DC.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Hold on, CS - do you mean Caste system, or CS as in civil service - bureaucracy? OK - I think you mean the civic CS at CoL. I think we have too much to build to be hiring a heap of specialists, although as pop increases, it gets more enticing. I assumed we'd wait until the GT or thereabouts, but, really, I'm going to stop talking until I get to check the save.