SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

-Build monument if <2 turns else temple after GL
-Accept all demands save religion swaps
...
-Worker moves? Road spam?

Most of the plan looks good to me, but I'd hate to lose the hammers we've already got invested in a barracks. Just not sure an obelisk is worth it -- our culture is going to overpower New York anyway. An obelisk might make it happen half a turn earlier, but I doubt it is worth the delay it would cause on getting other important stuff built. Also, we probably don't want to accept any civics demands either (or any demand that would cause us to go into anarchy right now). On the worker question, I might suggest some pre-chopping in addition to the roads -- the grassland forest SW of Beijing would be a good pre-chop target, I think. I believe I already voted to go back to working the crabs, but will say it again just to be sure.

EDIT: You also might want to consider gifting Washington a low-level tech. I really don't think he is likely to attack, but better relations can't hurt and I haven't looked but I'm sure there is some tech he needs that we could give him without too much pain. It might get him in a better mood to trade his Monarchy with us later too.

 

[WastinTime]

Ooo, I missed one thing. Absolutely do not bulid a monument. Even if it's just 1 turn, that'd be because we have a nice overflow from the Glib, don't waste that on a monument! Do a Granary! Temple! Barracks! or Spear. Anything else.

 

[dutchfire]

Strangely today, when he's UP, Dutchfire disappeared.
So, to take some advantage from our time zones, if anyone likes to grab the save we can swap him.
The targets and the way to arrive to them are clear, no need to repeat (i hope).

I'm strongly to LB Philo, and usually i avoid to trade it 'cause it's a prerequisite to Lib, or i trade after i'm *sure* to win the race.
Of course i don't trade paper, nor Edu until few turns to it.
Even on Deity a GS can LB Philo, but only an half of Edu: much will depend on the total science the empire produces (and we're running OCC), from the map size (maybe some advantage here) and from the level.

I'm sorry, I had my last schoolday yesterday, which traditionally has a lot of activities and partying. I hadn't expected that it would take my entire thursday to prepare for it, and my entire friday to enjoy it.

(now I'm going to read the rest of the posts made in my absence.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK Dutch, don't worry.
If you can play before tomorrow go ahead, grab the save and do it!

Culdeus said he can't play 'til Sunday evening (almost Monday morning for us), so since your TS targets are clear, go ahead he can wait for some discussion after your TS, then play.

Remember, 7 full turns, no more (and no less, if not for strange events).

 

[dutchfire]

Okay, I've got it.

By the way, it seems Huayna Capac has Literature, so I'm inclined to keep working the plains hill forest for a little longer, I wouldn't want to miss the Great Library on one turn.
Work the crabs instead of the plains hills

-Finish GL working max hammers (TBD, working crabs proposed and looking at thread seems to have majority of comments so far)
-Attempt to gather more by way of resource trade each turn
-Continue CS beeline after GL working max commerce
-Use overflow from GL to start and then finish Barracks
-Accept all demands save religion swaps and swaps that might cause anarchy
-Monitor AI relations with Washington and us closely
-Worker moves? road to iron
-scout moves?

 

[Merum]

For sure move from the forest to the crabs. It shaves turns off the research, and only makes the Glib take 1 turn more.

 

[WastinTime]

Okay, I've got it.

By the way, it seems Huayna Capac has Literature, so I'm inclined to keep working the plains hill forest for a little longer, I wouldn't want to miss the Great Library on one turn.

Say what? Capac does not have Lit. If it doesn't show that he wants Lit on the trade screen, that means we probably just traded him Alphabet. Yes, the last TS report shows that is true. You can also see that Lit. is listed in the techs that "can research".

 

[BLubmuz]

I know a Temple is important, but barracks too.
Since we risk to lost the invested hammers on it, better re-start barracks after GL, then in case suspend for a temple.

 

[MacBalt]

-Worker moves? road to iron
-scout moves?

If the worker gets bored and we don't want to pre-chop the grass forests, then another option might be to begin quarrying (& road-ing) the stone.

Scouting Elizabeth's territory -- and her borders with Alex -- would be nice and it would also keep the warrior close by for when we get Monarchy.

 

[greatbeyond]

Say what? Capac does not have Lit. If it doesn't show that he wants Lit on the trade screen, that means we probably just traded him Alphabet. Yes, the last TS report shows that is true. You can also see that Lit. is listed in the techs that "can research".

Example : GOTM 29 - I was ahead in trades, sped ahead to get Music and the Free Artist. No one else was listed as having Lit the turn before. I finished researching Music and got ... no Free Artist. None of the other Civs showed as having Music. Responses to my post for info , didn't reveal any certain answers other than the possibility that if it is a Civs special tech, it won't show up. I don't know whether this explanation is accurate or if it was some bug in the system. I was advised to check the Log which showed no one else discovered Music before me.

I also reiterate it isn't worth the risk of losing the GL for an improvement of only 1 turn on COL

 

[Merum]

Hc doesn't have literature, it's listed as a "Can research" for him. Moving to the crabs shaves two turns off CoL, and only adds 1 turn to the GLib. It's a no-brainer, imo.

 

[BLubmuz]

Wait a moment:
we can know for sure that no one of the *known* AIs has literature *now*.
But the Unknown? they are 7, and both French are Industrious.
Is it possible that the AIs on our continent researched something different from Alpha knowing that we and some other already have it (?).
But surely on the other continent(s?) someone else will go for it, to enable trades, and then this Civ can go for Lit.
Do you think we can beat a Deity AI (0.6) with a capital at size 7-8 and maybe marble hooked with our poor size 4 (maybe 5, but only now) single city?
No, if we can save 1 turn, let's do it, we can recover by working some sea tile later, or the cottage.
Just be sure to well MM the city, to obtain the max production possible with the max science possible, but privilege the production.
Merum, 2 turns later on CoL do not necessarily meant 2 turns later on CS.
Can you bet your jewels (the ones between your legs) we can have GL for sure?

 

[MacBalt]

Can you bet your jewels (the ones between your legs) we can have GL for sure?

Ha! No, I wouldn't bet those, but I don't have to put them on the table. (Or is this game played for higher stakes than I thought? ) This still a very good bet. We should take it.

Okay, maybe we can't know for a certainty that no one has Lit on the other continent, but I doubt very much that any civ over there has been facilitating research by trading stuff around as much as we have been doing on this continent. This is the kind of gamble we need to take if we want any chance at a laurel. Heck, this is a pretty safe gamble -- if we can't accept the risk on this one then where will we be when we really need to make some tough choices?

My vote stays with working the crab, but I'll go along with whatever the team decides.

 

[Merum]

Can you bet your jewels (the ones between your legs) we can have GL for sure?

No, but I'm willing to bet Sweetacshon's if you give me odds.

 

[Sweetacshon]

No, but I'm willing to bet Sweetacshon's if you give me odds.

I'm sure I've got those ownership documents around here somewhere!!

I'm not sure about the GL/CoL priority, and could go either way. We can only judge on where the AI are on this continent, which is not very close to the GL, and what we've seen in the tests, which for mine, iirc, I never failed to build the GL. So I suppose I am leaning toward more science, but this isn't a massive issue for me.

 

[BLubmuz]

Not great gamblers, here .
May i know when Beijing will grow to size 5, and how many turns we need for the GLib at max hammers at size 5?
Surely we must reach size 5 ASAP.
Now that i'm better thinking about it, at size 5 we don't have the "crabs problem": we can work both crabs, the 2 rocks and a forest-PH and continue to grow.
If i'm wrong, we can work always 2crabs+2rocks and alternatively sheep/FPH or cottage/FPH.
Better road/quarry the stone, soon or late we must do it, better now.

 

[dutchfire]

I'm going to start playing now

size 5, working crabs, deer, sheep, stone, marble
TGL (6) growth (8)

 

[dutchfire]

inherited turn: change citizens
IBT: Washington wants us to convert to hinduism, decline
turn 64: chop completes
IBT: Plato born in Delhi, Aristotle in a far away land
turn 65: worker to stone, 6 archers in NY, 4 outside of it, marble to crabs, growth in 3, TGL in 2
turn 66: Ptolemy born in a far away land, they keep popping them scientists! Quarry stone, 5 archers in Washington, 1 outside
turn 67: TGL built in Beijing, silver flips to us, start barracks, stone to cottage, Math for Meditation with Kublai Khan, crabs to marble, growth in 1
68: Alex wants open borders, decline, working crabs, crabs, stone, marble, sheep, cottage
69: Christianity founded in a distant land!
IBT: Asoka offers Monotheism + 10 gold for Literature, decline, Huayna offers open borders, decline
70: Code of Laws discovered
71: Finished barracks, autostart spearman (3) (1 hammer hasn't been rotten yet), Quarry finishes


----
Trades for Calendar:
Huayna: Lit + CoL
Asoka: Lit + CoL, we get 90 gold
Frederick: "We can't do that"

Civil Service (17)
Growth (5)
Spearman (3)

Can build: granary, temple, lighthouse, monastry (only +3 :beakers, National Epic

turn - silver - fur
64: 51 - 53
65: 50 - 52
66: 50 - 52
67: 50! - 52
68: 52 - 51
69: 54 - 51
70: 55 - 50
71: 50 - 57

 

[dutchfire]

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1520 BC to 1200 BC:

Turn 62, 1520 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 62, 1520 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 63, 1480 BC: Plato has been born in Delhi!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Aristotle has been born in a far away land!

Turn 64, 1440 BC: Ptolemy has been born in a far away land!

Turn 65, 1400 BC: SGOTM07 has completed The Great Library!
Turn 65, 1400 BC: You have constructed The Great Library in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 66, 1360 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 67, 1320 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: Your land area: 21 (3.79%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 69, 1240 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Asoka adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 69, 1240 BC: Your land area: 21 (3.79%) is close to the Domination Limit: 282 (51.00%).

Turn 70, 1200 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Frederick, Asoka, Huayna Capac

Spoiler :

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 63/460 (1520 BC) [11-May-2008 19:18:32]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 64/460 (1480 BC) [11-May-2008 19:24:38]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 65/460 (1440 BC) [11-May-2008 19:29:38]

IBT:

Turn 66/460 (1400 BC) [11-May-2008 19:33:24]
Beijing finishes: The Great Library

IBT:
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 67/460 (1360 BC) [11-May-2008 19:36:26]
Tech learned: Meditation
Beijing grows: 6

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 68/460 (1320 BC) [11-May-2008 19:43:11]

IBT:
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 69/460 (1280 BC) [11-May-2008 19:46:11]
Tech learned: Code of Laws

IBT:
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 70/460 (1240 BC) [11-May-2008 19:48:31]
Research begun: Civil Service (19 Turns)
Beijing finishes: Barracks

IBT:
Attitude Change: Frederick(Germany) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Elizabeth(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 71/460 (1200 BC) [11-May-2008 19:51:46]

For logs

 

[MacBalt]

Just checked the save. Great work dutchfire! Looks like we've got things rolling now.

By the way, thanks for recording the plot culture % information. Glad to see the silver flip. The fur still looks good too, but I see an obelisk in New York now. I'm glad his borders haven't popped to a 3-tile radius yet, but I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen very soon. Our next border pop will be in about 11 turns. That should get us our fur back for good within a few turns of the pop. Overwhelming New York completely is going to take longer than I'd hoped, but it will happen eventually. The numbers should start going our way after our next border pop.

One thing I noticed we all missed (except I think WT mentioned it some time ago), we probably should have made roading the sheep a higher priority, as we probably could have traded the sheep to Julius for his gold. No one seems to want our crabs. I still can't believe no one has demanded them in tribute yet. I thought we might try switching Asoka from deer to our second crab so we could send the deer to Julius, but Asoka doesn't seem to want our crab? He must have a crab hidden under the fog on his northern coast maybe?

Anyway, it looks like we'll need another happy in order to grow to size 6 in five turns. I think that is just enough time to road the sheep [EDIT: nope, 6 turns with movement], but maybe we ought to prioritize a temple (builds in 6 on current tiles) before the granary just in case Julius loses his gold again or gives it to someone else. I don't mind losing the one hammer we've got in the spearman.

Good job scouting too. Maybe we could swing him down right next to Alex since we still still have a good number of turns before CS & our next civics switch?