SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Alright!
Another target scored!
One dozen posts about crabs, and we was already at size 5... bah.
The Spear is the started warrior, let's build it, it can be useful.
Then an archer, and some buildings. To you the priorities, this is just a list:
Temple
Granary - Lighthouse
Monastery.

With silver we can grow to size 6 and with a temple to size 7, so i suppose the temple is #1, #2 G/LH, #3 Monast. for research.

Trades:
So, Asoka has Currency.
Why not try to trade for it?

 

[dutchfire]

I think the monastry isn't really that useful, only +3 science right now, though the culture is nice.

The temple is great, and should be first if we start reaching our happy cap.
The granary beats the lighthouse in my opinion.

 

[MacBalt]

Whoops, we are at size 6 already, and looking to grow to size seven in five turns or as soon as possible. I think we ought to prioritize the temple -- even over military for a while longer.

I doubt very much anyone is going to attack. Washington is at +0, but he has no metals and I don't think he is likely to DOW in any event. Alex is only at +1 with us and he IS unpredictable, but Alex is at -3 with both HC and Izzy. No one else seems anywhere close to a DOW anytime soon.

If we are really worried about Washington, then why not give him a tech? Maybe Priesthood would be better than Meditation, because we should probably avoid giving him anything that might lead to more culture in New York over the next few turns. With any luck at all he'll just demand our crabs and give us and extra +1 or +2 for giving him tribute.

EDIT: Cross-posted with dutchfire

 

[BLubmuz]

Both PH (temple) and Medi (monastery) give him the chance to build some culture. I we wanna gift him, better PH, i suppose.
The monastery gives a +10% to the base commerce, added to the beakers from specialists. And 2 culture.
We should have 8 commerce from capital + 9 from crabs*2 + marble + 2 from the trade route = 19 + 6b from specialists (why not 9, is there room for another scientists?) = 25
So it gives +2.5 (rounded at 3?) beakers alone.
But Academy + Library + monastery = +85% and 25*.85= 21, when 25*.75=18.75 (dunno if the round is to 19 or to 18).
I guess we MUST grow that cottage.
When we finish to road the resources, we need more cottages.

 

[culdeus]

I'm back, who is next?

 

[MacBalt]

Good question. This is the last roster I could find. Looks like Merum, but you were about to grab it before dutchfire returned, so can't really say for sure. Guess we'll have to wait for the captain's word?

A roster, even if i updated the first page:
dutchfire - UP
Merum - on deck
culdeus - to close the 1st round
Balthalion - to begin the 2nd
greatbeyond
WastinTime
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz
Sabre - resting

EDIT: Oops -- just found this again too. The TS targets are still pretty clear. Maybe you could just grab it, culdeus? or Merum? Bah -- probably too late now.

Culdeus said he can't play 'til Sunday evening (almost Monday morning for us), so since your TS targets are clear, go ahead he can wait for some discussion after your TS, then play.

 

[BLubmuz]

No problem who's next between M and C.
But i'd like to better draw a plan, so perhaps some row by WT and some discussion before next TS are better.

My opinion is that, yes the 1 hammer invested on the Spear can be wasted, but i'd like to have more than a warrior (almost nothing) and an axe (vulnerable to chariots) to protect us.

I know that the structures are necessary, but what we do with a temple if we're attacked?

 

[dutchfire]

an axe (vulnerable to chariots)

We're playing Vanilla!

I think happiness is our mean concern now, as more happiness means more citizens means more production & science.

 

[dutchfire]

About happiness:
The fur should be ours in the next couple of turns, if the trend continues.
We can trade our marble for Julius' gold, I think we should do this, as we won't be building the National Epic during the next couple of turns, and we can use the happiness.
This means +2 , so I think we should build a granary first, and then a lighthouse.


Should we start gifting small techs to backwards civs like Tokugawa?

 

[culdeus]

At the moment:

Researching : Civil Service (18)
Working on : Spearman (??)

Recent attitude changes

Fred to Cautious from Pleased
Liz to Cautious from Pleased
KK to Pleased from Cautious

Goals Next 10:

-Grow to 7? by roading sheep and trading it for a if possible. Continue shopping crab.
-Scout Alex w/ Warrior
-Start cottage (where?)
-Build Archer then Temple or Temple then Archer?

Should be a pretty ZZZZZZ type of turnset.

We are in good shape vs. the rest of the teams except in regards to culture. Not getting an early religion spread to us hurt. So it goes.

 

[MacBalt]

The fur should be ours in the next couple of turns, if the trend continues.
We can trade our marble for Julius' gold, I think we should do this, as we won't be building the National Epic during the next couple of turns, and we can use the happiness.
This means +2 , so I think we should build a granary first, and then a lighthouse.

The fur will take longer if New York's border pops to three before we get it back. Even if we get it back before the pop, we're likely to lose it again for a few turns until just after our own borders pop again on or about turn 82.
I love your idea about trading the marble. Brilliant! We can always switch it after ten turns if necessary. In that case a granary should definitely come next, though I'm not so sure about what to build after that: lighthouse, temple, or military?

Goals Next 10:

-Grow to 7? by roading sheep and trading it for a if possible. Continue shopping crab.
-Scout Alex w/ Warrior
-Start cottage (where?)
-Build Archer then Temple or Temple then Archer?.

If we can trade our marble for Julius' gold, then the worker should stay to put a road on the stone before moving. Then (IMHO) he can road the grassland 1SW of Beijing on the way to roading the sheep.

The cottage should probably go on the grassland-forest 1SW of Beijing, but we might also consider putting it on the river-plains 1N of Beijing to get the two extra commerce right out of the box. Any thoughts?

If we trade the marble to get the +1 happy, then IMHO a granary should be prioritized over the temple and archer for our next build.

 

[dutchfire]

I'd rather hook up our iron & sheep first, for trading purposes, than making another cottage.

We can always switch it after ten turns if necessary

If we road up the stone, there's a good chance we'll be able to get gold for stone or marble depending on our needs at that time. Imagine we want to build the National Epic, we cancel the marble deal, and use stone for 10 turns. If we want the Hanging Gardens, we can trade marble for gold during that period, so we have stone ourselves.


I think the granary will be more useful food-wise than the lighthouse. What do you all think? I'd put it Granary - Lighthouse - Military - Temple (if needed)

 

[culdeus]

I think we are too late to do hanging gardens. AI average build times are within 25-30 turns of now.

 

[BLubmuz]

No bonus attack for chariots vs. axes in Vanilla?
I probably played 1 game in Vanilla in the last year or more.

Anyway, i'm concerned of our military weakness: 1 more unit can help my nerves.
HG: we can probably build them in no time, but i guess the aqueduct will ask a lot of turns.
Surely if we decide to try, our next builds must be:
spear or archer
aqueduct
HG

if we don't i guess
spear or archer
temple
granary and lighthouse
monastery

Not sure about marble, we need it for NE and we can't be sure JC is interested in something else if we cancel the deal.

Tech trades:
Asoka has currency: is he in monopoly?
Perhaps we can trade Lit + CoL to HC for calendar and Lit to Asoka for money?

 

[dutchfire]

No bonus attack for chariots vs. axes in Vanilla?

No, that came in Warlords IIRC

Asoka doesn't want to trade Currency yet.

I think marble for gold is a great deal

 

[MacBalt]

spear or archer
temple
granary and lighthouse
monastery

Not sure about marble, we need it for NE and we can't be sure JC is interested in something else if we cancel the deal.

We won't need the gold forever -- just until we can revolt to Hereditary Rule. After that it won't be too long before we're back to talking about Drama and the Globe Theater.

IMHO growth and the happy cap are our primary concerns right now. Gold from JC will get us up to size 7 and by size 8 the fur tile should be ours again, so no need for the temple -- at least not right now. By then I think we'll be ready for HR, so maybe we'll never need the temple. Better to skip it if we can, then.

I think the granary ought to be our next build -- especially if we are willing to gift Priesthood to Washington to keep him happy. We are going to need to start growing fast very soon. Perhaps after the granary it will be time for more military. I might still prefer the lighthouse, but I don't see a lighthouse as nearly as important as the granary.

 

[BLubmuz]

Balth, your arguments seem good.
OK for granary then LH for buildings, but first i'd like to have one more unit.
And a spear is good as an archer, if not better, and i wish to prioritize this, to keep my nerves safe.
In Civ 3 there used to be the "farmers gambit": i think we're close to this strategy, too close for a crowded Deity scenario like this.
Yes, after CS we can go for Drama if anyone can offer it in trade.
Then, with our Bureacratic capital a theater and the Globe should come in no time.

 

[WastinTime]

I like the sound of military unit first, then granary. Let's not even talk about the lighthouse yet, it's just 2 food. I think we'll always find something better to build. This is our last chance to consider the Hanging G. We'd want to forget the granary and go for it now (after 1 military.) It normally never crosses my mind to get HG, but we have stone and the AI is a bit crippled with the lack of space.

Everyone already mentioned the other stuff I thought of as I caught up on my reading. Trade stone or marble for gold. I thought I mentioned earlier we should do that as soon as the GLib finishes.

Try to get currency.

We don't need calendar. Don't start passing around CoL and Lit yet. We should wait until currency and monarchy are also available before pimping our new tech.

 

[Sabre]

The problem with military is that, at the numbers the other civs can throw at us, one more defender would only delay our destruction. We would need to build up to our unit budget to even just survive a war dec. Does anyone know if the AI considers the magnitude of the power level difference or is it just a greater than, less than equation?

Not saying we shouldn't build a unit next (soothing BLubmuz' nerves is worth it ) as 1-2 more will be cheap happiness once we switch to HR, just that avoiding a war dec is a much bigger priority than trying to survive one. On that note, I also support giving away a cheap tech if we can to keep relations up.

The Hanging Gardens is very tempting. How painful would delaying the granary @15 turns be should an attempt fail?

My priority list of builds would be granary/1-2 military/monastery/temple/work boat for exploration

The temple is looking at this point to only be worth the culture (which is worthy.) Soon the happiness will come more readily from military/theatre/Globe. If we can't use trades/furs to keep happiness ahead of growth than the temple moves ahead of the monastery.

 

[WastinTime]

We'll want an Aqueduct soon anyway. The HG is probably only going to cost us 8 turns.

I think we can fend off an attack if we have just a couple more units. Even just that 1 unit can help. Sometimes the attack is only 1 or 2 units.