SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[culdeus]

Is anyone else wanting an axe after the spear? So far just one is for it. The rest seems to be clear. I think I know how to do the road on the sheep "trick"

If nobody else speaks up it will be granary after spear. I'm in Dallas so play perhaps 9pm CST.

 

[greatbeyond]

Sorry to be the spoilsport but declaring War is a sure path to disaster, unless it is a fake war with a Civ on another continent that can't get to us yet, or a dogpile situation. Has anyone played a test game and actually won or so immensely improved a win date to make it worth the risk? I thought I was going to be able to do it, but only got a short term improvement and then bad relations and more wars to the point that death was inevitable. Washington was seen to have anywheres from 6 to 10 Archers. How many Swordsmen do you think it will take to capture New York, much less Washington? Figure out the time required to build the mine on Iron and then add the time to build at least a Doz Swords. At least what, 50 turns. That is production that will not get us closer to either a Space win or Culture. Capturing/Razing NY hurts Washington, but doesn't really help us other than making the furs uncontested. Even that may not hold true if someone immediately settles that spot. I believe it is better to have more weak neighbors than a few strong ones.

I am not against building some defensive units. I am not so sure just 3 or 4 are worth it. If Washington attacks with a stack of 8 Archers, we need Archers for defense, not Spearmen. Spearmen are good for defense against Horse Archers and Chariots. Does anyone remember if any of the AIs on our continent have Horses. In all my test they were very scarce. Axe men are also useful against Melee units. My preference for building defensive units is Archers and Axes.

Anyone have access to the save right now? How many turns for the HG. If we want to do it, now is the time. Losing out on a Wonder doesn't hurt as much that you didn't get the Wonder, but that you have lost all that production. Money was virtually never an issue in any of my tests so getting a Wonder build "cashed out" isn't a great help unless we can buy city improvements.

Space vs Culture - I think either one is possible, but contrary to what was said earlier, I believe Culture is a lot quicker. We get our culture up as fast as possible then crank out GA and gift them to our PA partner. For Culture my vote would probably be Asoka as they are already the biggest CIV and seem to favor Culture. If someone knows a better "Culture Civ" we should consider it. For a Space win we want the most industrious partner combined with someone who is already in a good position. Any suggestions?

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm afraid GB points about war are not easily confutable.
Well, that spear can be good if some mounted unit is throw in the stack, and since we invested something on it, let's complete it.
I'm for spear, archer, then granary.
I guess it's enough to complete this TS, we can discuss after it what to do.
I said granary since no one seem in favour of a shot to HG.

 

[WastinTime]

Originally, I thought we would need to have a bigger PA partner, so war was the only way to get them some more space. Now I no longer believe that. I just completed a space win on our infamous test map. Launched 1755AD. First apollo popped out in 1520AD. I had the top 4 AI lined up with defensive pacts. I chose the one (Liz) that seemed to build the fastest. She only had 2 cities. I helped her by building 3 parts--the two copper ones and the engine. Asoka and Washington also got a PA together but had no chance to keep up.

Culture takes much longer for the AI to get on it. I don't think it would happen before 1850 AD. I think Space is not just the best option, it will be so much fun! (Culture is frustating/boring) We actually get to contribute to building parts (I never do that.) I was doing 200 hammers/turn and that was without changing any improvements (like making a windmill a mine.) We research faster than the AI (around 700 beakers/turn). Liz was actually dragging me down a bit!

I agree with GB that we should get some defensive units and forget the swords.

 

[culdeus]

Took a look around and snapped some shots of some things. When CS is in Monarchy and Drama should take 3 turns each.

The Aqueduct and HG would take 8 turns a piece.

Any addl. comments? My estimate is 1 in 3 chance we'd land the HG in 21 turns there'd have to be some whipping which sort of defeats the whole purpose of building it in the first place

ETA One option would be to MM growth after getting Julies Gold such that the granary comes in one turn before the city pop. Of course our captain might revolt at that point delaying military units even further.

 

[greatbeyond]

If it is only going to take 8 turns to complete the HG, I would do that first (almost forgot that we have to build an Aqueduct first). I would chop the Aqueduct to get it as quickly as possible. Getting the HG has a two-fold effect. We gain health and 1 Pop and we deny that benefit to any AI. Because the HG grants a +1pop, you could whip a little and not really lose out, but in my experience, with such quick build times it is not economical to whip, usually being 2 pop per turn reduction.

If we are going for a Space win we need to build every building that contributes to science and adopt the appropriate civics and have a large pop to be able to run several scientists. This means food is just as important as Gold to sustain a large pop. We need to figure out the order of builds. Building the Globe relieves us from ever building anything to get happy citizens and we won't need any happy resources (we could trade/give them away for better relations). Health will be our biggest concern, so (if not building the HG) Granary (promotes faster growth and Health) probably comes before an Aqueduct (health only). The HG, Aqueduct, and Granary will give us at least +4 (check my figures. What other ways can we boost our health?

We should also clarify our research path. This is an area I'm weak in, not knowing all the tricks of prerequisites. I didn't know that researching Hunting trims research on writing ( that was what it did wasn't it?) There is also the GS tech preferences. I believe we had a post near the beginning of our discussion with a link to the article on this.

 

[MacBalt]

Hokey Smokes Bullwinkle! A lot can happen in just a few hours! Did we just go from HG to Culture Win to Space Race with military to Space Race with only defensive military and then back to (maybe) HG again??? I'm getting dizzy!

Okay, for whatever it's worth, here is my two cents:

• I agree that Space Race with a PA is our best victory target.
• I'm afraid we are already too late for HG, but I want to test it. Saw that Bismark built it in our earliest test game on turn 77 (ouch). If we want it, I think we need to go there now -- no military until after. If we don't want it, then I don't think we're really missing that much. I'd skip it unless further testing shows it coming later than turn 90 or so for the AIs.
• My preferred build order is spear, then granary, then archer (if no HG).
• Trade Marble for JC's Gold ASAP.
• Gift Washington PH to keep him happy.
• Road the stone, then iron, then sheep (if no HG, else pre-chop 2 tiles after roading stone).
• Scout Alex's borders. I still don't have a good read on his cities or even if he has any metals. Can't figure why he hasn't attacked someone yet unless he doesn't have metals.

On other things:

I think Washington is too close and too weak to be a possible PA partner. Right now I'd think Asoka would be best and Liz would be my second choice. WastinTime has more experience and if he prefers Liz then that is fine with me.

What I would like to see is someone like Alex (or possibly Izzy) attack Washington and take his capital city (we'll get NY later with culture). Then we pile on with the Hindu AI in a good rumble (preferably vs. Alex all by himself as opposed to a Buddhist coalition of AI). That would open up more space for us, Asoka, & Liz without getting us any big negatives but earning us some big positives with Asoka & Liz. With any luck we could be the ones to re-take Washington and reduce it to rubble and make whoever takes the territory start over culturally.

 

[WastinTime]

What other ways can we boost our health?

Harbor = +3 health
Genetics = +3 health
grocer
supermarket

I agree with your post. I'll hold off discussion of the details until it becomes more relevant. Focusing on the next turnset, I'll go Aqu/HG if that's the consensus.

EDIT: Crosspost:

WastinTime has more experience and if he prefers Liz then that is fine with me.

Actually Asoka is a favorite of mine for space partner. Liz just happened to build apollo faster that test game. I have to admit, she seemed to focus on building parts better than I expected. Maybe she is a better target. It will depend on a lot of things. That decision is a long way off.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Harbor = +3 health
Genetics = +3 health
grocer
supermarket

I agree with your post. I'll hold off discussion of the details until it becomes more relevant. Focusing on the next turnset, I'll go Aqu/HG if that's the consensus.

It certainly isn't from me. After what my tests yielded, I think we are too late. And just think that the forests we want to chop for the HG to get +1 are worth +1 anyway! I vote for axe (can't even remember seeing horses), then granary (we've got food and soon happies out the wazoo)

Actually Asoka is a favorite of mine for space partner. Liz just happened to build apollo faster that test game. I have to admit, she seemed to focus on building parts better than I expected. Maybe she is a better target. It will depend on a lot of things. That decision is a long way off.

I agree, it is too early. We just need a pool of potentials at the top of our diplo list, and we'll choose the best one later. Asoka and Liz atm, and we'll see what happens on the other continent. I had good luck in the tests with expanding my PAs lands with later wars, and I think that's how we should war if at all.

Culture or space? I always tried space, and never usually go for culture wins anyway, but it's the same process of having a pool of potentials and choosing the best PA at the right time. I'll probably play a test or 2 going for culture wins.

 

[MacBalt]

After what my tests yielded, I think we are too late. And just think that the forests we want to chop for the HG to get +1 are worth +1 anyway!

Agreed here. HG isn't worth the diversion, & I also think we are already too late. Axe or spear doesn't really matter to me, but either way a granary should follow.

I agree with GB that we should get some defensive units and forget the swords.

If we don't need swords, then it makes more sense to road to the sheep before going for the iron. At 19 culture per turn I'd say we'll probably keep the iron from falling into Liz's control any time soon, if ever.

 

[Sabre]

I also vote for Space Race and would like to see a few more archers/axemen for defense. I think WastinTime makes a good point in that soon we will be focusing on building theater, Globe, University and Oxford. If we don't build up our defense now, it will be very tempting to keep putting it off till after all those builds. The Hanging Gardens would be nice, but I think some defense is more important.

 

[BLubmuz]

Quick decisions are not our strongest point, but better so.
So, if HG delays too much our insurance (military units) let's forget it if this is the general consensus.
I've seen no horses, but elephants around, and construction it's not so faraway. Thus a spear is far better than an archer, but no problem: if we renounce to HG our build queue should be:
- spear
- archer
- granary
- lighthouse
- National Epic: the more we wait the less GPs we can squeeze.

with the LH we can put a scientist at work without loosing any growth compared to now.

I already exposed my consensus on a SR with PA, and i find Lizzy better than Asoka in the long term: her traits are great in any situation, asoka's only with a good number of cities. But it's soon now.

EDIT: And we should NOT forget the +7 we got with Izzy. I know she's usually a pain in the ass, but it happened my best friend was Monty or GK in some games.

@WT
- harbor +3, but if we own the 3 different seafoods, and that english city is a serious threat to this
- grocer gives nothing if you lack sugar, wine, spices or banana
- supermarket same, we got only sheeps, so it can be a +1
- also granary is useless by this point of view, it's useful only to accelerate growth, we lack any cereal.
the only help is the aqueduct (+2 with nothing) and of course genetics and our forests.

GS techs:
now is Philo.
After CS it's Philo, then paper-Edu, then the Astro path, until you have GP where it goes for Chem.
Paper is a waste (it cost less than a half of Edu)
Philo is strategical on the Lib race, and if it's already discovered the AI usually builds an Academy instead of bulbing it.
If we manage to pop 2 more GS, the first one will go to Philo, and the 2nd to half of Edu.

 

[dutchfire]

Victory Condition: Space Race
Hanging Gardens : No
Builds: spear - archer - granary - lighthouse

I didn't know that researching Hunting trims research on writing

Hunting trims research on animal husbandry, a prereq of writing.


I also think we shouldn't declare war on a deity AI

 

[culdeus]

So with this military buildup the tech build order looks to be

Finish CS
Monarchy
revolt
Drama

Looks like the spear-archer-granary is decided what comes after perhaps we'll wait and see. There will be another pause. I'll knock this out quick tonight at home asap.

Also given the plan The worker will just road the tile it's on and the two to it's left. No need for iron at this time and would waste worker turns. I'd like to see it go to the plain for a cottage afterwards.

 

[dutchfire]

Monarchy

Hmm? Wouldn't Paper be better, hoping to trade for Monarchy?

 

[BLubmuz]

Hmm? Wouldn't Paper be better, hoping to trade for Monarchy?

Monarchy will come in trade.
If we take a detour from paper/Edu, it will be on Drama.
But we can wait until Culdeus posts his report to discuss this in deep.

 

[culdeus]

Hmm? Wouldn't Paper be better, hoping to trade for Monarchy?

That would take an addl. 3 turns over self-research and we'll be out of in that timeframe.

Drama alone was never able to get me monarchy in tests and it's power as this great tech trade gambit never really paid off. Paper might as it's just enough beakers to con the AI into giving other techs up.

In any situation this is probably two Turnsets away talk and things could change.

 

[WastinTime]

We will get monarchy for CoL. This will be before CS, so we can share anarchy. I expect we'll go:

CS
revolt 1
paper
edu

I think you will find that the +6 to +8 happy (or more) we get after the revolt is enough to steer us clear of drama.

Builds: We should make sure the granary is done before 17 turns (cs). I'm sure it will. I suppose LH is better than Aqu. We may have to work those coast tiles after our explosive growth and before our cottages are ready.

GS: Philo is not a large enough tech, beakers are wasted bulbing that. I'm strongly against bulbing any tech except Education. In this case, the early beakers give us and early oxford and really pay off. Of course, very late in the game we can bulb. And as for 2 GS in Edu, we have almost no chance of getting 2 GS in time. Even if we stopped working the stone/marble now and ran scientists, I don't think it will come in time. At our current rate, we'll get 1 in 20 turns (during the paper research.) That's our Edu bomb. Don't forget, you get more beakers if your city is bigger (1500-1600+ IIRC) Philo is only 1100+ BTW.

 

[BLubmuz]

WT, you're right about Philo.
It's a waste in terms of beakers.
But its strategical importance on the way to Lib is great.
But there is no need on further discussion on these, since a GS will bulb Paper/Edu before Philo after CS, and philo only after those, IIRC.

Our GP rate is the reason why i proposed NE after the LH.

 

[dutchfire]

Builds: We should make sure the granary is done before 17 turns (cs). I'm sure it will. I suppose LH is better than Aqu. We may have to work those coast tiles after our explosive growth and before our cottages are ready.

LH > aquaduct for sure, a lighthouse gives +2 whenever we're working both crabs, aquaduct only when we're unhealthy. I think we'll be working the crabs more often than we'll be unhealthy.

Our GP rate is the reason why i proposed NE after the LH.

Great Artist pollution