SGOTM 07 - Smurkz

[GeneralEuropean]

I done a few practice games and Catherine asked for open boarded 2 turns before I discovered writing and subsequently declared war.

I think it may depend on which leader is our neighbour. ???

Also I have a slightly different 1st 40 turns proposel

Can't do the fancy speadsheet like you sir so here is in its crude form
(spolier for neatness)



Turn 0 - warrior SW, build Beijing --- Worker (research fishing in 6)

Turn 1-5 Warrior scouts, meets Catherine and Louis

Turn 6 fishing researched, switch production to Work boat at 5 hammer, done in 6
(research masonary in 10)

Turn 8 buddism founded.

Turn 12 Work boat built and sent to crab 2N back to worker with fur for the 1 commerce

Turn 13 Work boat working the crabs, MM to crabs 3 coins!!! worker still in 5.

Turn 15 Masonary finished, research the Wheel in 7 Warrior cannot scout anymore fortify in Beijing.

Turn 16 Hinduism HBFIADL

Turn 18 Worker finished moved to Stone, (5 hammers overflow!!! plus 4 food growing in 6 turns) another work boat in 13.

Turn 19 Worker building Quarry (6turns)

Turn 22 Wheel discover - hunting in 4

Turn 24 Beijing grows, Quarry built. MM so crabs and Quarry are being worked, (auto is for the fur!!!)
This means the 2nd Work boat is now finished in 2, same as Hunting

Turn 25 Worker roads the Stone.

Turn 26 Work boat finished, goes to Crab2
Walls in 4

Turn 27 Judaism HBFIADL
2nd work boat working the Crabs, MM so both crabs are working, Growth in 3 walls in 9

Turn 28 Worker start quarrying Marble.

Turn 30 Beijing grows to 3, crab crab and stone being worked, Walls in 2 growth in 6

Turn 32 Pottery in on to Writing.
Walls done switch to Pyramids, overflow bouns,

Turn 33 Switch to Scout in 3, base prod 7, maxium overflow to pyramids.
(could use marble to bring in Writing from 8 to 7 turns??????)
Beijing grows in 3

Turn 36 Worker has roaded the marble onto the fur (with hunting happiness cap has been reached)
Overflow to pyramid = base production = 42
Pyramid in 16
Beijing grows in 14

Turn 40 - writing in on to Alphabet in 20
Pyramid in 12 growth in 10


What do you guys think?
Everytime I have played I got the Pyramids first, unless I was beaten By Catherine, as previously mentioned, so another warrior could be built instead of the scout, but after this period I usually like getting the scout out and discovering all the other civs, before I get to Alphabet for maximum trading.

p.s I live in Japan, so could someone tell me where I am on the roster and what time zone we will work by?

G.

cant use the spolier thing ????

 

[ChrisShaffer]

p.s I live in Japan, so could someone tell me where I am on the roster and what time zone we will work by?

The roster has not been set yet. Time zone is irrelevant. Here is the schedule:

Player A posts a strategy plan.
-- all players have 48 hours to respond to the plan

Player A plays 20 turns
-- uploads save
-- posts detailed summary on message board

Player B has 24 hours to post a "got it" message
-- must download the file and open it before posting

Within 48 hours from Player A upload, player B posts strategy plan
-- all players have 48 hours to respond to the plan

Player B plays 15 turns
-- uploads save
-- posts detailed summary on message board

Player C has 24 hours to post a "got it" message
-- must download the file and open it before posting

Within 48 hours from Player B upload, player C posts strategy plan
-- all players have 48 hours to respond to the plan

Player C plays 10 turns
-- uploads save
-- posts detailed summary on message board

etc. etc. etc.

Normally, early in the game we play 20 turns per set. Later we play 15 turns per set if peace and 10 turns per set if war. Since this is a deity OCC diplomacy/PA game, we might want to play 10 turns per set throughout.

 

[Niklas]

Normally, early in the game we play 20 turns per set. Later we play 15 turns per set if peace and 10 turns per set if war. Since this is a deity OCC diplomacy/PA game, we might want to play 10 turns per set throughout.

I like this suggestion. This is going to be a really tight game, but each turnset will likely go fairly fast. I'd like to see stops often, so max 10 turns regardless of where we are in the game. If anyone disagrees then speak up, otherwise it's decided.

Tentative roster based on sign-in order as usual:

• Niklas
• Renata
• unkle
• Methos
• ChrisShaffer
• zyxy
• GeneralEuropean

I'll try to make a suggestion for a spreadsheet later tonight. I think GE has a good idea though, to get the first WB out before the worker, and skip the rather useless irrigation of the plains. I'm less sure about the scout though. And I'm still hesitating regarding the Pyramids. I'd like to see some more discussion on the wonders issue!

GE, to use spoilers you say [spoiler]Spoilered text goes here[/spoiler] to get the following

Spoiler :

Spoilered text goes here

 

[Renata]

We don't have an extremely high-food site (at least not without sacrificing our terrific production), but we do have enough food to run a couple of specialists whenever we don't need things built super-fast. If you figure we'll get the Great Library as well, and will settle a couple of early GPs, we're looking at Representation giving us 12-18 extra beakers per turn (before multipliers) for most of the game.

Compare that to building the Great Lighthouse instead. The Lighthouse will give us two extra trade routes. As soon as we hit Monarchy or Drama and get our population up, those routes should be worth 7 or 8 base commerce each. However, those extra routes won't last forever, whereas the Representation beakers will just keep increasing with every additional settled/free GP. (I can't remember which tech obsoletes the GL, but I'm assuming it's one we need -- anyone?) In addition, we can build the Pyramids earlier (don't need sailing).*

I'm not 100% sure all my assumptions are correct in the above; does anyone have anything to add?

As for the length of turnsets, 10 is fine by me. If we're really going for diplo, I'd honestly be just as happy if every player would stop for discussion before making any diplomatic decisions that aren't completely obvious, even if it means halting the game with the diplo screen open and Genghis on there politely demanding our only monopoly tech.

[* Though do we want sailing prior to alphabet for the ability to build a lighthouse and boost our growth? Excess population isn't an issue for long -- as soon as we have bronze-working, we can break out the whip.]

 

[Renata]

Ok, I read some of Wastin Time's stuff, and one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that he handpicks his opponents, aiming for a game that's a love-fest, with no wars and everyone pleased with everyone else. In such an environment, it's relatively easy to avoid negative modifiers: no trading with worst enemies, no impossible demands to cease trading (few demands, period), no requests to join wars and the inevitable negative modifiers that come from that. He just stays friendly with everyone.

We're not going to have that luxury. Every backstabbing, warmongering nasty out there is going to be in the field with us. So our efforts at diplomacy are going to be much more difficult than what Wastin Time does.

I've played a few diplomatic victories myself (granted, at low levels; I'm no expert), and I actually really like it as a victory condition, but I do consider it a hard one if backdoor domination is deliberately avoided. I find that it's usually useless to try to befriend the warmongers. They demand too much; by the endgame, it's usually impossible to still be friendly with more than maybe one or two of them. In addition, staying friendly with even a couple of them usually costs even more; namely, the votes of numerous peace-loving civs who wind up hating the warmongers. So for those reasons, when I play for a "peaceful" diplomatic victory, I usually befriend most of the "nice" civs any way I can, and ignore the rest.

But, that does lead to a lot of attacks by the nasty civs. (Hence the quotes around "peaceful".) So I usually keep a large army, and usually regret it when I don't. As an OCC, I'm not sure how we avoid getting trampled, though surely the crowded conditions can only help us in that respect (by keeping all of the civs small for a long time).

 

[Niklas]

Good points all Renata.

I'm of course not saying Diplo will be easy, but I don't think it will be significantly easier to go for any of the PA-dependent routes. I suggest we go for a fast SciMeth, that's where the roads towards Mass Media or Communism deviate. (Though maybe we would need an early MilTrad, for DPs first, before the AIs would consider PA?)

The Great Lighthouse is obsoleted by The Corporation, which technically we don't need on our way to UN. So the benefit of that would be similar to the benefit of Pyramids. And it's significantly cheaper to build, though we don't get the benefit of stone, so in practice it would be (200/1.5) = 134 hammers against (450/2.5) = 180 for Pyramids. The Pyramids/Representation gives us the extra benefit of +3 too...

I'm doing my spreadsheet now. Two quick questions though, how many happy people can we support without the furs on this level, and how much free health do we have?

 

[Renata]

I think four happy, since it's our capital. Health should be large with all those forests. If all the forests were chopped, it would fall to four, I think, assuming netted seafood.

 

[Niklas]

Thanks for that info.

Here's my first attempt at a starting spreadsheet:

Spoiler :

And with that I need to go to bed. Please comment.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Spreadsheet looks good to me.

I note that it's entirely possible one or more of the AI will have alphabet before we do, so technology trading might be possible between turns 40 and 50.

Also, are we depending on one warrior + walls for defence while we build the Pyramids and library?

I wouldn't put it past the mapmaker to have an industrial civilization with stone in the enemy camp. What is our backup plan if Pyramids are BIAFAL?

 

[unkle]

Good discussions !

On organisation of the team, having short turnsets (10 turns with stops) is fine for me, we want everybody to play.

I am worried on the 1 warrior only, knowing that we will not get better defense before trading for archery. I am not really convinced by scout given the size of the map.

Getting Mids/GL (let's assume we can) should allow us to not be completely overteched, and have "some" way to beeline towards MM. But with the mids, you want to settle your GP rather than lightbulb them. So we are going to beeline "by hand". Which is not so good since lightbulbing allow you to trade and backfill (my understanding of high difficulty levels). Do we have an issue here ?

In all case, opening on worker, settling in place and researching fishing/masonery seems our best options at the very beginning. But it looks like the other aspects of the spreadsheet requires us to have a clearer picture of our path.

Last question walls are sped up stone, so don't we want to get as much overflow as we can ? Would it be better to wait for BW/chops ? I am not very good at predicting overflow, but at least that could be an option to get the mids earlier (switching to walls AFTER the BW trade).

 

[ChrisShaffer]

By the way, with continents we may need optics and ocean-going boats to contact the other continent. How soon should that be a priority?

One reason for earlier walls is the power rating - they count like units when the AI considers attacking us.

 

[Niklas]

We seem to be agreed regarding the early turns. I will pick up the game tomorrow morning and play the first session. That could be anything from 1 turn (our warrior discovers eldorado when moving SW(?)) to 12 (first WB) if everything seems straightforward.

Regarding wonders, the more I think about it the more convinced I am that Pyramids are indeed the most valuable to get. I'm not certain my spreadsheet is the right way to go past the initial turns though, with Pyramids it might be beneficial to grow a bit more? But we can see that in a while. But I think we should decide right away to go for Pyramids and GLib. I definitely don't see any better alternative. Together they will allow us to produce both a huge load of beakers, as well as a steady stream of GS. I don't think we really need to bulb so much, our pace should allow us to settle them and still not fall behind (and actually gain from it in the longer run).

Re Walls, like Chris says the point is to get our power rating up a bit. Walls give the equivalent of 2000 soldiers, or the same as an Archer. We start with Mining (2k) and a warrior (1k), we get boosts for The Wheel (4k, turn 22), Hunting (2k, 32) and Walls (2k, 32) as well as 1k per 2 pop. So on turn 36 (pop 4) we should be up to 13000 soldiers. Not a massive number, but it won't mark us as sitting ducks either. Once we get Alphabet (4k) and can trade for BW (8k) and Archery (6k) things will look a lot brighter.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I concur.

I think we should settle every great person possible. We might save a Great Engineer for a quick wonder, but that's about it. The key to winning OCC is having a high population - and the only way to get a high population is to settle the GPs.

I wish we could figure a way to get Great Prophets, as those are my favorite GP to settle in the city.

I agree that Pyramids and Great Library are the best of the early wonders for us.

 

[GeneralEuropean]

OK well I played another practice game followed the exact steps on the lastest spread sheet and Catherine declared war again, (I had 13000 soliders in demographics)

Dont know what the difference is between my game and yours, but if this happens to us in the real game well be F**ked

Thoughts please.

p.s I couldnt load the save game on this thread, some kind of error, anyone else experience this?

 

[Niklas]

If she does, we'll be smoked.

This is just to report that I have downloaded and successfully opened the save, so this is a formal Got It. I'll start playing in an hour.

GE, do you have the correct version of the HOF mod installed, and the new dll from BTS 3.13?

 

[unkle]

I love to settle Prophets usually, but in OCC you don't need the gold that much. Settling GS should be better anyway for us.

 

[Niklas]

4000 BC (0):
Warrior moves SW and finds Deer and Cow, certainly nothing to move for. Settle in place, and discover our immedate surroundings:

Spoiler :

Rather than play on I decide to stop here for now, to reassess our plan. The Deer in particular may speed some things in the plan up - and might make Hunting an earlier priority.

For those who are interested, here's a shot of our current military status:



I guess not much can be found out from that that we didn't already know - we're facing everyone, and we're way behind!

I'll continue play later tonight. I'll see what I can do about a revised spreadsheet before that.

 

[Renata]

Ooh, I like the extra food. It means more specialists, which means Pyramids gets even tastier.

More later.

 

[Niklas]

New suggestion:

Spoiler :

Note that I've had to deliberately delay growth early on since we cannot sustain pop 5 until the furs are roaded (or we get Pyramids/Repr).

 

[ChrisShaffer]

How, exactly, do you hope to trade for Animal Husbandry before we have Alphabet? Would we have anything worthwhile to trade to an AI that had already researched Alphabet by this point?

I like the new plan up to that point - go for it.