SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

I am used to my file, so I will keep playing with it a bit, but yours has some extra interesting things.
[on mine, on T(n) you select the tile you will be working and you have the added value on T(n+1)]

On the attached new version (which take into account our new situation), I have tried several version up to T30-T31
- test1 : 2WB fast
- test2 (&3): 1WB fast
- test4 : worker first
- ruff_str : 0WB (ie ruff last idea)

All with barracks and then archers (up to 3)

The best seems to be 1WB only (even with 2 carbs netted, I was using both only a few turns), with the strategy, max food to S2, max prod to WB, max food to S4 then max prod.
With that we have
- WB done T13 (crab T14)
- barrackT23
- archers T27, T29 (T32)

Then I thing WB2 and worker OR worker only first? (depending on lots of things)

In all these tests, I stop growth at size4, but of course if we manage to trade crab for happy, we need to improve

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

It all depends on who our neighbours are ...

• nutcase: Japan, Monty, Boudica -(like), etc - then I think we need to go the STR route outlined on the bottom of the previous page (Barracks, archers and hunting, archery)
• If they are nice (Gandhi, Peter, Liz, Washington, Bismark, etc), then we can afford to go medium strength (fishing, hunting, archery with WB builds thrown in
• If they are non-existent (ie we are along), then tech is king and it is Fishing (WB x 2), writing

Given the above, I think that our 'don't know who is near us' position should be to start teching down the hunting, archery route and swap to fishing (after we finish hunting) if we have no or nice neighbours. This will slow down our WB but the testing that we have run so far show that not working the netted crabs early isn't slowing us down.

As such: Can we get feedback on me playing a few turns while teching hunting (6 turns) and doing some more exploring? This should close off some of the above options.

PS: Are Barbs on or off on this game?

 

[Jabah]

Of course if we are just next to Toku, Alex and Monte, I might change my mind.

But the difference is huge between our version, to gain only 9t on the first archer (T18 instead of T27 and also at that time I have a production of 10hpt so I can build 2 more in 5t), you are still at size2 T30, while I am at size4.

Did anyone was declare before T30 ? (don't know the connection between turn and time, since I am at work).

I would prefer going for fishing first until we realise we have all the nasty AIs around AND with close border risks.

Jabah

PS : even if barbs are on (don't know), they should have no room to be

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Regular barbs on.

No, let's not play the real game right now. We've been throwing around a lot of info and should take time to absorb it, analyse it, and check each other's conclusions.

@Ruff: I think the analysis of the situation is probably wrong: the most dangerous scenario would be for us to be alone as barbs are always at war and, on deity, even at regular abundance, they'll cross culture very early Such a set-up would be quite unlikely, as I'm sure an isolated start on Deity would be fatal for our tech rate.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Compromise's contrived war was launched on turn 32, Ruff's 1 warrior war came on T44, so I still favour the progressive fishing first approach.

 

[Compromise]

I hope I find time late tonight to generate another test save, but the last couple days have been insane for me.

From what I've read, especially about the unit/tech contributions to the power rating (thank you Jabah!), I favor the grass forest while starting a barracks, then max hammers for a WB, then max food until size 2, then crab+maxhammertile till barracks finish. Tech toward archery after fishing.

I just think the warrior is something we'll end up deleting eventually, and that the barracks and quick archers will be sufficient to avoid super-early DoW.

And I guess I see the end of this first turnset as being the discovery of Fishing anyway. By then--even though it's pretty short--we should know some of our neighbors....

 

[Kodii]

Even though warriors are worth half an archer, they are still "expendable" and I would still vote for Barracks first, because they will provide a solid power boost which will last until the endgame. Considering we have time before the AI attacks, and by the time we are ready to produce Archers, we'll have a total soldier count of:

1000 (2/3 Pop) + 2000 (Hunting) + 2000 (Mining) + 6000 (Archery) + 4000 (Barracks) + 1000 (Starting Warrior) = 16000

The barracks alone will provide us with four warriors worth, which I think is generous enough to convince us that its the best path to go.

Still unwavering, I vote for:

Fishing -> Hunting -> Archery
Barracks (until Fishing) -> WB -> Barracks (complete)
Grassland Forest (until Fishing) -> 3H Hill (until WB) -> Grassland Forest (until size 2) -> Crab + 3H Hill

Is there anything else we should test before moving on?

 

[ruff_hi]

Fishing -> Hunting -> Archery
Barracks (until Fishing) -> WB -> Barracks (complete)
Grassland Forest (until Fishing) -> 3H Hill (until WB) -> Grassland Forest (until size 2) -> Crab + 3H Hill

I agree with build and tech order. My suggested tiles would be:

2F1H until border pop
2F2H until fishing is complete
3H until WB is complete
2F2H until crabs are netted
4F3C until size 2
4F3C + 3H from there

 

[Kodii]

2F1H until border pop
2F2H until fishing is complete
3H until WB is complete
2F2H until crabs are netted
4F3C until size 2
4F3C + 3H from there

Agreed. I had forgotten about the deer.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Here's a save updated to include most of the features we can see from our actual start.

 

[chmoosi]

Originally Posted by Kodii View Post
Fishing -> Hunting -> Archery
Barracks (until Fishing) -> WB -> Barracks (complete)
Grassland Forest (until Fishing) -> 3H Hill (until WB) -> Grassland Forest (until size 2) -> Crab + 3H Hill
I agree with build and tech order. My suggested tiles would be:

2F1H until border pop
2F2H until fishing is complete
3H until WB is complete
2F2H until crabs are netted
4F3C until size 2
4F3C + 3H from there
>
>

This gets my vote too

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I agree with build and tech order. My suggested tiles would be:

2F1H until border pop
2F2H until fishing is complete
3H until WB is complete
2F2H until crabs are netted
4F3C until size 2
4F3C + 3H from there

(my bold)

This is wrong: with a 2-2-0 we should grow to size 2 (then decide whether to work the 1-2-1 or a 2-1-0) to complete the WB. Max growth delays the WB by just one turn, whereas max hammers leaves us still at size 1 on the same turn that max growth has us working the crabs and deer. Which is a longwinded way of saying that trading two food for one hammer sucks

 

[Compromise]

Swiss' argument has convinced me. I think we want to play with the does until we get crabs. mischief

I apologize for not getting another testgame up, but RL is severely intruding on my civ time. At this point, I suspect we know enough to run at least a few more turns so we can see who the neighbors are.

Does anyone object to Ruff running a few more turns tomorrow?

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Swiss' argument has convinced me. I think we want to play with the does until we get crabs. mischief

I apologize for not getting another testgame up, but RL is severely intruding on my civ time. At this point, I suspect we know enough to run at least a few more turns so we can see who the neighbors are.

I've added another test game post in my post of 0741 this morning, so anyone who has time can run some games today.

Let's decide later today whether Ruff should play on a bit tomorrow.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Here's some stuff on this subject. One point to remember is that the limit applies to our team, not just us:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578&page=4

What it means for us is that - if want to get +ve modifiers - we should make imbalanced trades (getting in cheap techs) to the 'tech hoarders' asthey go into WYFABTA rapidly anyway, and the more even deals with the tech whores as we'll be able to trade tech to them longer, thus giving more chance for +ve relations.

 

[Jabah]

(my bold)

This is wrong: with a 2-2-0 we should grow to size 2 (then decide whether to work the 1-2-1 or a 2-1-0) to complete the WB. Max growth delays the WB by just one turn, whereas max hammers leaves us still at size 1 on the same turn that max growth has us working the crabs and deer. Which is a longwinded way of saying that trading two food for one hammer sucks

Completely agree with SP. deer is our best tile by far so it should always be worked.
Also, we should note that once we reach size2, the WB will be completed in 2t EVEN with working basic forrests instead of hill, so we should just do that:
size 2, until crab netted (only 3t), we should work 2f2h+2f1h, then until size 3, we should work crab+deer.
(Also I still pretend it is better to grow quickly to size4, not stop at size3, and at size 4, we could work deer, crabs and 2 hills for a total of +0f/+10h)

Detail of my suggested opening

Jabah

 

[Compromise]

Jabah, I like the layout of that Excel file. Looking at your screenshot...Couldn't you work the furs on T11 and complete the workboat (45H) one turn earlier? You'd trade a food for a hammer and a coin and get the crabs in play a turn earlier.

That's probably enough micro...time for Ruff to make more moves and meet the neighbors!

 

[ruff_hi]

playing to the end of fishing tech, working deer after border pop.

 

[ruff_hi]

I've played 6 turns thru to Fishing. Here is the save ...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC3760_01.Civ4SavedGame

And the log of the session from the upload ...

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Malabar Front has been founded.
Turn 4, 3840 BC: The borders of Malabar Front have expanded!
Turn 5, 3800 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

And my report in words ...
Turn 2, 3920 - we meet Washington
Turn 3, 3880 - we meet Asoka
Turn 3, 3880 - we meet Tokugawa
Turn 4, 3840 - we meet Huayna Capac
Turn 5, 3800 - we meet Elizabeth

... and pictures ...

the track our warrior took (pink path, yellow is a bounce from border pop, green is following the bounce.

scoreboard

high level culture - I think it is Lizzie off to the West

our city

 

[Kodii]

Nice to see that we kinda have a shield from the likes of Toku (by Asoka, Wash, Liz).

At the same time, with HC and Asoka, and any other religious AIs on our continent, I think we're going to have some religious problems. That may be nice, as they can fight each other and leave us in the corner to grow.

Someone will probably settle the plains 1E of the cattle (as someone predicted before), so lets hope that they don't wage a tough cultural battle.

Seems like our plan will continue the way we started it:

At growth, work the deer AND FURS? until the workboat finishes and switch to deer + grassland forest for 1T (or not?) and then work crabs + 3H hill.

Hunting -> Archery

WB -> Barracks -> Archers (x2 or x3?)

EDIT: According to the score graph, I would harbour a guess that all the AIs we've met have founded their second city except HC