Kodii
Ka ICE
The plan sounds good, I don't think you missed anything.
SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Foreshadowing: ahahahahahahahaha oh crap.
Right, I begin by installing the HOF mod, setting autosaves to 1 and loading vanilla civ for the first time in donkeys years. Baba yetu is so awesome - that should blatantly have been used again for the expansions. I miss it.
IHT (3760 BC): Change production to work boat, select hunting as our next tech. I decide to take a wander to the north west with our warrior.
T2 (3680 BC): Buddhism is FIDL. We are blocked off to the north-east by hills. We have 2 choke points to defend, a plains forest and the silver hill.
T5 (3560 BC): I saw this coming last turn, but there's nothing we can do: New York is founded. In the most provocative place possible. Gee I don't know, first he leads a revolt against his glorious king, then he goes and founds a city on our doorstep.
We are now size 2, I check the forums and work a grass forest.
T6 (3520 BC): We finish hunting, begin learning to make bows and arrows. Oh no you di-int ...
Hinduism founded ... In FREAKING NEW YORK!
What are the bloody chances?
T7 (3440 BC): George Washington converts to Hinduism. WB -> Barracks. Our fishing boat heads out into the water.
T8 (2440 BC): It's all the same, so I net the furthest away crabs. Hey - if we get refrigeration before we build the next work boat then we save a turn! We now work the crabs and the deer.
T12 (3280 BC): Archery in. The world as we know it:
And our city, whose name I don't get.
Right, I begin by installing the HOF mod, setting autosaves to 1 and loading vanilla civ for the first time in donkeys years. Baba yetu is so awesome - that should blatantly have been used again for the expansions. I miss it.
IHT (3760 BC): Change production to work boat, select hunting as our next tech. I decide to take a wander to the north west with our warrior.
T2 (3680 BC): Buddhism is FIDL. We are blocked off to the north-east by hills. We have 2 choke points to defend, a plains forest and the silver hill.
T5 (3560 BC): I saw this coming last turn, but there's nothing we can do: New York is founded. In the most provocative place possible. Gee I don't know, first he leads a revolt against his glorious king, then he goes and founds a city on our doorstep.
We are now size 2, I check the forums and work a grass forest.
T6 (3520 BC): We finish hunting, begin learning to make bows and arrows. Oh no you di-int ...
Hinduism founded ... In FREAKING NEW YORK!
What are the bloody chances?
T7 (3440 BC): George Washington converts to Hinduism. WB -> Barracks. Our fishing boat heads out into the water.
T8 (2440 BC): It's all the same, so I net the furthest away crabs. Hey - if we get refrigeration before we build the next work boat then we save a turn! We now work the crabs and the deer.
T12 (3280 BC): Archery in. The world as we know it:
And our city, whose name I don't get.
Oh crap. That's like.. the suckiest happenings eva. I'm already getting visions of "the Razing of New York". Let's hope that this not some quirk of RNG for those stupid . .. .. .. .ing white men to invade our neighbourhood, but that the others get the same treatment.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Well, considering the early game RNG can be very similar.... I sincerely hope we aren't the only ones in this ridiculous situation. 
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Fur? What fur?
Compromise
Emperor
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Those accursed hindu americans are stealing our fine pelts!
Seriously though, I think we all need to just sit back for a moment and grumble at sooooo for not following the turnset orders which clearly did not specify allowing the founding of a religion in such a nearby city.
At least this should add some flavor to our game.... I'm curious to see if our autoraze of New York engenders discontent amoung the faithful. At least we're unlikely to face many non-American forces pre-Writing.
Edit: I did some websearching to understand the name of our city. I think I'd really better read that book.
Seriously though, I think we all need to just sit back for a moment and grumble at sooooo for not following the turnset orders which clearly did not specify allowing the founding of a religion in such a nearby city.
At least this should add some flavor to our game.... I'm curious to see if our autoraze of New York engenders discontent amoung the faithful. At least we're unlikely to face many non-American forces pre-Writing.
Edit: I did some websearching to understand the name of our city. I think I'd really better read that book.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
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That sucks the big one: I can see us losing our marble(s) before GLib comes up 
And a FIN civ with a potential shrine of a potentially dominant religion
A quick check of LeaderheadInfo reveals GW only gets -2 'close borders', so that could have been worse.
I've got it for tomorrow. I'd plan to get BW for the power boost, and hope that there's copper on that plains river tile...
And a FIN civ with a potential shrine of a potentially dominant religion A quick check of LeaderheadInfo reveals GW only gets -2 'close borders', so that could have been worse.
I've got it for tomorrow. I'd plan to get BW for the power boost, and hope that there's copper on that plains river tile...
Jabah
Emperor
I think we should first estimate when/if we will lose the marble. (don't forget we where planning to build a library soon - library+palace good hold the 1st ring). NY there means we really need culture, and GLib seems to be the most likely with our start. I would not change our plan to much (except the growth to size5) or at least discuss that a lot.
I am not sure playing tomoroow is the wisest decision (except if we discuss lots today and manage to agree on a action plan).
It could be not quite easy, but it is possible to modify one of our test game to reflect this situation for testing ?
Jabah
PS - looking at the team's culture graph, 1 team manage to build a wonder around T40 (for 8cpt), so Oracle or Pyramids likely which is rather a good news for our GLib .
I am not sure playing tomoroow is the wisest decision (except if we discuss lots today and manage to agree on a action plan).
It could be not quite easy, but it is possible to modify one of our test game to reflect this situation for testing ?
Jabah
PS - looking at the team's culture graph, 1 team manage to build a wonder around T40 (for 8cpt), so Oracle or Pyramids likely which is rather a good news for our GLib .
Jabah
Emperor
Another bonus of still going for Alphabet asap (on top of library for culture).
We then will be able to trade for BronzeW, IronW and AnimalH, faster than researching them all. So if there is something valuable in this 'empty tile' we have a higher chance of know it whatever it is.
Jabah
PS -and if the SGOTM has be nice enough, the metal we have is Iron (which is much more needed for OCC than Bronze)
We then will be able to trade for BronzeW, IronW and AnimalH, faster than researching them all. So if there is something valuable in this 'empty tile' we have a higher chance of know it whatever it is.
Jabah
PS -and if the SGOTM has be nice enough, the metal we have is Iron (which is much more needed for OCC than Bronze)
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
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I don't see why we would need to delay much. Going to Alpha is still the plan, and I'll be completing the barracks and training archers. What we need to decide for my set is tech as I'll end it on learning one of the two:
1. BW
2. Wheel-Pottery
The former is less risky for a DoW, but the latter will get us to Alpha more rapidly. On reflection, I'm coming down on the side of option 2: without the furs to pillage we only have the deer to improve, and food isn't a problem, so a DoW against us if we have three archers won't be so painful.
1. BW
2. Wheel-Pottery
The former is less risky for a DoW, but the latter will get us to Alpha more rapidly. On reflection, I'm coming down on the side of option 2: without the furs to pillage we only have the deer to improve, and food isn't a problem, so a DoW against us if we have three archers won't be so painful.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
We need to start the run to writing for the library (+3 culture) so that we can start the cultural war.
Swiss Pauli
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We're doomed on culture war: GW will build culture buildings faster than we can (incl. Library), so we need to be prepared for him to steal most of our eastern BFC 
Cathy settled upsides me on one of the test games, and, whilst this was a 'fair' fight, I eventually lost the marble (even with GLib). With a Holy City, GW has brought a gun to a swordfight!
Cathy settled upsides me on one of the test games, and, whilst this was a 'fair' fight, I eventually lost the marble (even with GLib). With a Holy City, GW has brought a gun to a swordfight!
Jabah
Emperor
In one of my old test , I had Isa settling a 2x holy city (including her state religion) in a similair place and she didn't manage to steal my 1st ring.
If we lose the marble after GLib, I guess it is a minor problem.
Back to the BW 'side-step'.
I would not do it right now anyway, as even if we have copper, we need archers first then a worker, so we would not be able to improve the copper immediately. And at size 4, archers are taking 2.5t to build so we should be able to live without whipping for the moment. (we could always re-evaluate the situation after writing).
What is extemly important to follow is :
1. When/If Washington has access to a metal (or horse)
2. What is defending NY
2. If the religion spreads to anyone. (is adopted)
We could (should?) have to try to raze NY at some point, and need to be able to guess the consequence of a war (diplo + units needed). And of course be semi-ready if someone declare on Washington.
Jabah
PS(edited) : from the SShots, it seems that Elisabeth and Asoka will also have border tension with Washington (their 2nd cities, being 4 tiles away from Washington city), so we could have some help there.
If we lose the marble after GLib, I guess it is a minor problem.
Back to the BW 'side-step'.
I would not do it right now anyway, as even if we have copper, we need archers first then a worker, so we would not be able to improve the copper immediately. And at size 4, archers are taking 2.5t to build so we should be able to live without whipping for the moment. (we could always re-evaluate the situation after writing).
What is extemly important to follow is :
1. When/If Washington has access to a metal (or horse)
2. What is defending NY
2. If the religion spreads to anyone. (is adopted)
We could (should?) have to try to raze NY at some point, and need to be able to guess the consequence of a war (diplo + units needed). And of course be semi-ready if someone declare on Washington.
Jabah
PS(edited) : from the SShots, it seems that Elisabeth and Asoka will also have border tension with Washington (their 2nd cities, being 4 tiles away from Washington city), so we could have some help there.
Jabah
Emperor
interesting point :
if we look at the 'team's power graph'
Going archery fast (worth 8pt) was not popular.
(but some 'slow' teams have started with either 2 wariors or hunting)
More 'interesting'.
If we follow our 4 archers (with research as planned), we will have 29pts of power on T34 (including pop4, barracks, 4archers, wheel). We will be the 'strongest' (of the team) by a huge margin.
Now on some of my test I was "planned to be declare (wheooh)" with 1 archer less (27pt power) on T35. Look at how many teams are under 27pt after T36 ... If we are in one of this configuration, some teams are really inviting the deity AIs to give them a visit
JB
if we look at the 'team's power graph'
Going archery fast (worth 8pt) was not popular.
(but some 'slow' teams have started with either 2 wariors or hunting)
More 'interesting'.
If we follow our 4 archers (with research as planned), we will have 29pts of power on T34 (including pop4, barracks, 4archers, wheel). We will be the 'strongest' (of the team) by a huge margin.
Now on some of my test I was "planned to be declare (wheooh)" with 1 archer less (27pt power) on T35. Look at how many teams are under 27pt after T36 ... If we are in one of this configuration, some teams are really inviting the deity AIs to give them a visit
JB
Personally I'm in favour of the next player playing some turns heading towards alphabet (wheel, pottery, writing) and building archers until writing comes in. Trying to mm to get the fourth or fifth archer completed on the turn writing comes in to start the library.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Agreed.
And the Gypsy Kings are imitating us! Except that they decided that two warriors > barracks. It'll be interesting how that turns out in comparison to our start.
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I'm sorry to hear the team got stuck with such a RnG smack down.
I've never had to deal with this one before, so I can't offer any advice. How soon, if ever, on deity would you be strong enough to raze this city? OCC is tough enough, but you can't afford to loss any territory.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
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The autolog sums up the action:
Turn 19, 3240 BC: Tokugawa adopts Slavery!
Turn 23, 3080 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Slavery!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: Elizabeth adopts Slavery!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Washington adopts Slavery!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Asoka adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Asoka converts to Judaism!
Turn 29, 2840 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
Turn 30, 2800 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Our power zoomed up after barracks completed (as anticipated). Archers barely cause a ripple now that the AIs are learning BW and beefing up military.
Sent our warrior off to check to the west and there's fish and clams in our fourth ring (if an AI doesn't slap down a city on the ice). He's heading back, but I think we should delete him once the third archer is complete, and replace him with a Scout, who can map out the AI lands at double speed.
The religious split between Asoka and GW is not good: I'd expect GW to be able to roll over the Indian if it comes to a fight.
We're losing control of the marble at 2% per turn, so it looks unlikely we'll be able to keep control of it for GLib building No AIs have writing, but they will do soon enough and GW's production bonuses mean he'll soon be able to counter any extra culture we bring to bear on the marble. Given this, we should stop after Alpha to review whether a try for GLib is worthwhile: a Taoism grab might be more appealing (Myst-Medi-Priest-CoL).
I'm proposing to work the 1-1-1 as it gets the archer in 4 and shaves a turn off Writing. I think we should grow to an unhappy size five as we can afford it food-wise.
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC2760_01.Civ4SavedGame
Turn 19, 3240 BC: Tokugawa adopts Slavery!
Turn 23, 3080 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Slavery!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 25, 3000 BC: Elizabeth adopts Slavery!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Washington adopts Slavery!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Asoka adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 26, 2960 BC: Asoka converts to Judaism!
Turn 29, 2840 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
Turn 30, 2800 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Our power zoomed up after barracks completed (as anticipated). Archers barely cause a ripple now that the AIs are learning BW and beefing up military.
Sent our warrior off to check to the west and there's fish and clams in our fourth ring (if an AI doesn't slap down a city on the ice). He's heading back, but I think we should delete him once the third archer is complete, and replace him with a Scout, who can map out the AI lands at double speed.
The religious split between Asoka and GW is not good: I'd expect GW to be able to roll over the Indian if it comes to a fight.
We're losing control of the marble at 2% per turn, so it looks unlikely we'll be able to keep control of it for GLib building
No AIs have writing, but they will do soon enough and GW's production bonuses mean he'll soon be able to counter any extra culture we bring to bear on the marble. Given this, we should stop after Alpha to review whether a try for GLib is worthwhile: a Taoism grab might be more appealing (Myst-Medi-Priest-CoL).
I'm proposing to work the 1-1-1 as it gets the archer in 4 and shaves a turn off Writing. I think we should grow to an unhappy size five as we can afford it food-wise.
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG007_BC2760_01.Civ4SavedGame
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
not sure about growing - there is nothing that we can do with this extra person. We only need 8 food at present so we can move the 1f1h1c tile to 1f0h3c and the 2f2h0c tile to 0f3h0c. This will result in -2 food (9 in total), +0 hammers and +2 commerce - effectively swapping food for commerce.
Can we open WB and swap the stone and marble?
Can we open WB and swap the stone and marble?
Spoiler :
Jabah
Emperor
I would not grow, (either by MM or selecting no growth option). We want to have enough food for 2 scientists after library and also have enough in the 'bar' to build library at food deficit (like crab-deer -2x hills or even deer-3xhill soemtimes).
But we DO want the 4th archer before (or better at the same time) as writing, which means a bit more production.
Before Alpha (in fact straight after wrting), i would research Mysticism to avoid trading for too many 'cheap' techs (and also build a monument since we will need all the culture we are at it).
Ps : SP why do you think GW will eat Asoka easily ?
But we DO want the 4th archer before (or better at the same time) as writing, which means a bit more production.
Before Alpha (in fact straight after wrting), i would research Mysticism to avoid trading for too many 'cheap' techs (and also build a monument since we will need all the culture we are at it).
Ps : SP why do you think GW will eat Asoka easily ?
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