SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Melior Traiano]

Well, does Toku want Mysticism or not? Only Melior Traiano knows.

Are there any new ideas? Let's decide what to do.

I am sure if we were to just hand Mysticism to Toku, he would gladly accept it.

We can safely agree to the following:

Trade no more tech this turn (fingers crossed with Yamp assurances).

Maximize production to finish library in three turns, effectively stopping population growth.

Set research to Math.

Hit end of turn and come back with a new save next turn, to see what our new options are?

btw, I will be out for the next 10 hrs or so.

I'm voting for this plan.

I concur. Any objections or other ideas?

 

[marconos]

I'm okay with it.

 

[Morganknight]

Wow. I was expecting a lot more to have happened by now.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Thought I'd post this before calling it a night. Set research to Math, MM city to build Library in 3, end turn.

Next turn, updated tech trade screen:

All options are on the table, as a certain world leader would say.

I checked possible trades.

Asoka will trade any of the following combos for Alphabet:

1. Math
2. IW + Archery (won't trade IW + any other tech)
3. Archery + two out of three of: Poly, Med, Sailing

Washington will trade any of the following for Alphabet:

1. Math
2. IW only
3. Archery + two out of three of: Poly, Med, Sailing

The Toku free Mysticism gambit isn't worth much because he's so backward.

Given the options, I vote for Archery, Poly, Sailing from Asoka & Math from Washington (try to pick up a +1 with unfavorable trade).

Edit: Turns out Beijing is built on top of Copper, so we don't need Archery for units. Not sure WFYABTA is a concern in the decision to trade for Archery or not.

 

[Morganknight]

Excellent. Your suggested trades look spot on. I would still go ahead and give Myst to Toku. Getting better relations with him in exchange for this tech that everyone else has doesn't seem to have any drawbacks...

Keep the worker moving south to see if we can discover anyone else, using the roads...(possibly before trading to see if we discover anyone first...)

Switch research to literature. Once the library is finished, hire the science specialists and run hardcore science until we find lit. Build a couple of axemen in the meantine for defense?

Another option would be to build an aqueduct and try to steal the HG, but that is highly unlikely. I imagine the AI would finish it before we even finished the aqueduct. The overflow cash from a failed build could help us upgrade our warrior to an axeman, however...

Another idea:

How about trading Alphabet to Washington this turn for Meditation, Polytheism and Archery and (seeing if our luck holds) try to trade for Monotheism + whatever from Asoka on the following turn? If we could do that, we would be able to switch to Representation, Slavery and Organized Religion all at the same time...just as our library was finished...

Do you foresee anyone else giving Asoka Alphabet before we do? I don't...

We go ahead and spend another turn researching math (potentially but not necessarily increasing our research time for Lit by another turn - not sure of the math)...maybe we could get both it and Mono from Asoka?

 

[Ankka]

We go ahead and spend another turn researching math (potentially but not necessarily increasing our research time for Lit by another turn - not sure of the math)...maybe we could get both it and Mono from Asoka?

I doubt that would happen, the AI thinks mono is very important, math too, even if we have researched it for 2 turns.

I would do the trades melior suggests.

 

[Yamps]

All right, things looking better.

Some initial ideas:

Our next target is Liz, not having Math yet. We also want to open Priesthood for COL. Regarding IW, I believe there will be more civs knowing it. Btw, I've just opened up an old test game, at this point I have 8 civs to trade with, Alpha monopoly and Library in 1.

Anyway, here is what I think:

1) Get Math first. This is a big stone, prices get up, maybe they wont trade it after we make other trades. Alpha to Washington. He only offers IW for Alpha, it looks Asoka values Alpha more.

2) After some consideration, I say: Poly, Meditation and Archery from Asoka. Meditation has greater trade value than Sailing because Liz doesn't have Meditation. This way we will have Math and Meditation on Liz for the next turn.

Some other thoughts and questions:

Mysticism giving. Maybe Toku discovers IW soon so we will trade later on. There is one consideration: worst enemies. They don't like Toku much. Although, this is a broken concept, IMO. You can trade with civ A while civ B likes it and later get penalties because B starts hating A. On the other hand, I've traded with civs at war and didn't get penalties!

Organised religion: Mono would be nice, but remember that we still don't have the *cough* right religion. That would be Buddhism in our situation.

Revolting, GL and other considerations:

We are maximizing research after we get Poly and rushing for the GL. We need to watch if Liz has Literature. Do we need those +6 beakers from REP when we finish Library or not? I hope we wont need it. Do we need slavery or are we waiting for COL?

Balbes suggested hiring two scientists right away and keeping them till a GP is born for a GS. I agree with that, this seems best.

He also suggested a popping trick for the GL. It wont work with the library though, because we need that now. What other building? Lighthouse is 60, Library 90, I'm not sure how good this would be. We don't have Sailing yet, but Sailing is a common tech for the AI's, we can get it when we meet more civs.

We could also chop some wood with mathematical precision.

Drama or COL?

I would like to go for Drama ASAP to increase happy cap. Would that put Liberalism race to risk? We should test this.

Last, but not least:

It's my birthday today! I'll be out of town soon and won't be online for the next ~24h. Have fun and don't get killed.

 

[Balbes]

Not sure WFYABTA is a concern in the decision to trade for Archery or not.

If WFYABTA is not a concern now, it will quickly become so with the pace of tech trading on a crowded Deity map. I would avoid anything that is not absolutely required.

I would like to go for Drama ASAP to increase happy cap. Would that put Liberalism race to risk? We should test this.

More testing is always a good idea. However, by this point in the game it is getting hard to recreate the situation in worldbuilder, and you mostly have to rely on your actual experience. I am going to go ahead and say that researching Drama will not lose us Liberalism.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Excellent. Your suggested trades look spot on. I would still go ahead and give Myst to Toku. Getting better relations with him in exchange for this tech that everyone else has doesn't seem to have any drawbacks...

There's one other detail. Toku is Washington's worst enemy. I don't think we should piss Washington off by giving Toku a freebie tech.

Keep the worker moving south to see if we can discover anyone else, using the roads...(possibly before trading to see if we discover anyone first...)

No pre-chopping for GL?

Switch research to literature. Once the library is finished, hire the science specialists and run hardcore science until we find lit. Build a couple of axemen in the meantine for defense?

Another option would be to build an aqueduct and try to steal the HG, but that is highly unlikely. I imagine the AI would finish it before we even finished the aqueduct. The overflow cash from a failed build could help us upgrade our warrior to an axeman, however...

Neither Asoka nor Washington is unwilling to trade Math because they're building HG, so it doesn't look like they're going for the wonder, as yet. Of course, we have only made contact with 1/3 of the AIs out there, so chances are there's an Industrious civ out there being industrious on this project already. We can also build Research now if we want to completely max science.

Another idea:

How about trading Alphabet to Washington this turn for Meditation, Polytheism and Archery and (seeing if our luck holds) try to trade for Monotheism + whatever from Asoka on the following turn? If we could do that, we would be able to switch to Representation, Slavery and Organized Religion all at the same time...just as our library was finished...

I think we can get a 2 for 1 civic switch for 1 turn of anarchy, but am pretty sure a 3 civic switch will mean 2 turns of anarchy.

Do you foresee anyone else giving Asoka Alphabet before we do? I don't...

We go ahead and spend another turn researching math (potentially but not necessarily increasing our research time for Lit by another turn - not sure of the math)...maybe we could get both it and Mono from Asoka?

I dunno, potentially giving the AIs another turn headstart in the GL race makes me nervous.

All right, things looking better.
1) Get Math first. This is a big stone, prices get up, maybe they wont trade it after we make other trades. Alpha to Washington. He only offers IW for Alpha, it looks Asoka values Alpha more.

2) After some consideration, I say: Poly, Meditation and Archery from Asoka. Meditation has greater trade value than Sailing because Liz doesn't have Meditation. This way we will have Math and Meditation on Liz for the next turn.

This is an interesting thought. We should be able to get IW from Liz. The potential downside to this trade is if she chops for GL, the chops become more effective.

Mysticism giving. Maybe Toku discovers IW soon so we will trade later on. There is one consideration: worst enemies. They don't like Toku much. Although, this is a broken concept, IMO. You can trade with civ A while civ B likes it and later get penalties because B starts hating A. On the other hand, I've traded with civs at war and didn't get penalties!

It also depends on how even the trades are. If you make a lopsided trade with AI A, who is AI B's worst enemy, that's a big negative hit with B, but if the trade is even, there might not be a hit with B at all. As mentioned, Toku is Washington's worst enemy, so I vote to nix the free Mysticism to Toku.

Organised religion: Mono would be nice, but remember that we still don't have the *cough* right religion. That would be Buddhism in our situation.

This combined with the extra turn of anarchy, I don't think hoping to pick up OR would be a good move, even if we pull it off.

Revolting, GL and other considerations:

We are maximizing research after we get Poly and rushing for the GL. We need to watch if Liz has Literature. Do we need those +6 beakers from REP when we finish Library or not? I hope we wont need it. Do we need slavery or are we waiting for COL?

Will the +6 bpt make up for the postponed turn of research by the time we finish researching Lit? And do we want to attempt some whip overflow trick to give the GL build a boost? I'd have to look at the save again & do some calculations, but intuition says yes to both questions.

Drama or COL?

I would like to go for Drama ASAP to increase happy cap. Would that put Liberalism race to risk? We should test this.

Drama also opens up Philosophy for bulbing IIRC, in case we don't trade for Med.

Last, but not least:

It's my birthday today! I'll be out of town soon and won't be online for the next ~24h. Have fun and don't get killed.

If WFYABTA is not a concern now, it will quickly become so with the pace of tech trading on a crowded Deity map. I would avoid anything that is not absolutely required.

Then perhaps we should drop Archery from trades, as we can build Axes & Spears.

More testing is always a good idea. However, by this point in the game it is getting hard to recreate the situation in worldbuilder, and you mostly have to rely on your actual experience. I am going to go ahead and say that researching Drama will not lose us Liberalism.

The increased pop cap from Drama should help offset at least some of the initial investment into teching Drama in the first place.

 

[Yamps]

WFYBTA

This is a tricky question. From my experience:

I was cautious with trading in most games. Some WFYBTA occurred after 10 trades in 2 different games with 2 civs.
But there are many civs on the continent with different trading limits, someone has always been there for the trade. I've traded ~25 techs in one game I finished playing. (My first deity win ).

Acid on the other hand reported trading for everything! He didn't trade much later on, being most advanced.

Well, time for some

 

[Yamps]

OK, I haven't missed much.

What is our plan? I'll recapitulate what we have discussed so far the way I see it:

1) Toku is Washington's worst enemy and giving Mysticism to him doesn't look that good. Toku also doesn't have anything to trade.

2) WFYBTA - we are somewhat concerned about this. Skipping archery seems logical, with copper underneath our city.

3) Math from Washington, Polytheism and Meditation from Asoka. Meditation has greater trading value than Sailing, and we will have Meditation and Math on Liz. It is an open question will we actually trade with Liz.

4) Exploration questions.

We haven't met any new civs, continuing worker exploring seems logical. On the other hand, we will probably make some chops so we don't want him to go too far.

5) Revolting and popping tricks.

This looks like a good idea, some calculations would be helpful. Sailing will be needed for the lighthouse and getting Sailing won't be a problem if we meet somebody new.

6) Drama after Literature for the happy cap. Drama makes Philosophy cheaper and we will have larger population.


What do you think?


I suggest we make a time schedule for discussion, pregame plans, decisions and execution to keep things moving.

 

[marconos]

What the heck is WFYBTA?

 

[vra379971]

1) Toku is Washington's worst enemy and giving Mysticism to him doesn't look that good. Toku also doesn't have anything to trade.

Agreed. Toku's unpopularity will help us deflect attention.

2) WFYBTA - we are somewhat concerned about this. Skipping archery seems logical, with copper underneath our city.

Agreed again. I should also note that this makes Metal Casting a teach we may want, both for Forges and for the wonder which we can get, and it would be another good boost for tech.

3) Math from Washington, Polytheism and Meditation from Asoka. Meditation has greater trading value than Sailing, and we will have Meditation and Math on Liz. It is an open question will we actually trade with Liz.

Sounds agreeable.

4) Exploration questions.

We haven't met any new civs, continuing worker exploring seems logical. On the other hand, we will probably make some chops so we don't want him to go too far.

Question. Do we need to? We've basically traded our way to parity, and if we want the HG which we could possibly get we'll need him to chop a forest. With it's benefits its worth one forest. Return him and get a scout out. Anyway, they will likely be coming to us soon anyway.

5) Revolting and popping tricks.

This looks like a good idea, some calculations would be helpful. Sailing will be needed for the lighthouse and getting Sailing won't be a problem if we meet somebody new.

Eh, not a priority a lighthouse is. We can wait to send a Scout.

6) Drama after Literature for the happy cap. Drama makes Philosophy cheaper and we will have larger population.

Sure.

And a question...what do you all think about chasing music for the free GP, which would be worth 3 gold and 3 beakers to us...?

What do you think?

I suggest we make a time schedule for discussion, pregame plans, decisions and execution to keep things moving.

I'm having to deal with an emergency out of town until Wednesday and have asked Yamps to look over the ship if that's agreeable to all of you. Lets try to work forward here to wrap up this Turnset and set course for the Libiary.

Don't forget to HIRE SCIENTISTS!

Cheers!

 

[shikhee]

If we could do that, we would be able to switch to Representation, Slavery and Organized Religion all at the same time...

A Revolt for all 3 options takes 2 turns, revolt for 2 of those 3 options is 1 turn - I think 2 turns is too expensive so the question becomes what is more useful Slavery or OR ? (I'd vote OR if we had a religion...)

 

[Morganknight]

What the heck is WFYBTA?

I had to look this up too. Evidently, its an acronym for "We fear you are becoming too advanced." - the message you sometimes get when one or more of the AIs stops wanting to trade techs with you for no apparent reason. Apparently, this function is largely determined by how many techs you have traded for from others.

Perhaps Balbes or another of our team could elaborate for us both.

 

[shikhee]

I'm still struggling with the diplomacy a bit (too many potential threads to keep track of) so I have nothing to add here.

Happy Birthday Yamps! Mine was on the 2nd and I've been away a few days!

 

[shikhee]

What the heck is WFYBTA?

haha - I was stumped on this abbreviation for a while too... I can't remember the actual acronym but its when another civ will stop trading techs with you because they fear you are becoming too advanced (and have too many techs). Their comment in red is the full WFYBTA.

I think.

 

[Yamps]

I'm having to deal with an emergency out of town until Wednesday and have asked Yamps to look over the ship if that's agreeable to all of you. Lets try to work forward here to wrap up this Turnset and set course for the Libiary.

Don't forget to HIRE SCIENTISTS!

Cheers!

Reporting in as an acting captain.

Ok, first things first.

Roster reminder:

Melior Traiano
Morganknight
Shikhee

We have to add Ankka to the roster and we have skipped Marconos, but we can attend to that when Vra returns.

Melior has played a few turns and posted the save. Melior, you are still an active player. Please post your exact plan suggestion. I encourage all players to look at the save.

One question: we have researched math for 2 turns. Why? They didn't want to trade?

We have made some discussions for the next few turns, we should be ready for execution soon.

Remaining questions:

Worker exploration
I suggest at least one more turn to see what's the situation with Monotheism, Priesthood and Sailing. We could also build an Axeman and sent the warrior out.

Hanging gardens
Seems like a good idea. Although we have to accept that there is a big chance we won't make it. We also have to remember what are our priorities: Literacy, GL and good trading.

Just had an idea! We don't need a lighthouse for popping tricks. We can use an aqueduct. We should do some calculations and good timing is needed.


P.S.

Happy Birthday Yamps! Mine was on the 2nd and I've been away a few days!

Happy birthday to you too!

 

[Yamps]

@WFYBTA

"We fear you are becoming too advanced."

The problem with this concept is its name. This should be called:

"We fear you are trading too much"

AFAIK, this works like this:

Every civ that has contact with us counts how many trades we make with all civs. When we reach a limit, we get WFYBTA. Every civ has its own limit, but they count all trades, not just trades we make with them.

Note that we could use our lack of exploration as an advantage, because the civs that don't know us yet haven't started counting.

Also, if we have a low score ranking (50% of civs ahead of us) and the civ we want to trade with is also below 50%, that civ will trade with us.

Balbes, please correct me if I missed something.

 

[Yamps]

*deleted*

(same post as above)

I'm having some trouble since the forum update. Everything is slower and forum forgets I'm logged in.
Hope this will sort out soon.