SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[classical_hero]

I think it is best not to put the save in between the official turn since it shows the other teams what we are doing. You can clearly see that we have been trading right after I had my turn. So that any saves that we are just discussing things for trade, you should just attach the save to your post in this thread, so it does not give away too much info about how we are playing. That is just a thought.

 

[Morganknight]

One question: we have researched math for 2 turns. Why? They didn't want to trade?

We have actually only researched Math for one turn. Unless Melior has posted a new save.

We are getting ready to trade for it this turn. The discussion has been how and what to trade for.

I agree with the most recent proposal. I have a few comments however:

On the archery question: Archery is a prerequisite to build the Chukonu(sp?) our national unit, which would appear to be a pretty good defender. Have we given any thought as to whether we want to build any of these? Maybe other units will be better for us? If we do want to use these units, then perhaps an archery trade wouldn't hurt too much...

Even if we do have the "wrong" religion, which will be more useful to us in the long run, Slavery or Organized Religion. I honestly am not sure, but if the answer is Org Religion, then we should trade Washington for Polytheism this turn and Asoka for Monotheism on the next turn. If the answer is Slavery, then we continue with the plan as posted.

So to recap, this turn:

1)Trade Washington Alpha for Math.

2)Trade Asoka Alpha for Poly and Med (and possibly Archery.)

3)Set research to Literature.

4)Send worker south a little more. (or pull it back and start prechopping some forests...)

5)End turn.

 

[Ankka]

On the archery question: Archery is a prerequisite to build the Chukonu(sp?) our national unit, which would appear to be a pretty good defender. Have we given any thought as to whether we want to build any of these? Maybe other units will be better for us? If we do want to use these units, then perhaps an archery trade wouldn't hurt too much...

They're better on the offensive, they inflict collateral damage but it doesn't work on defence. They're really good at capturing cities, though.

 

[Yamps]

One question: we have researched math for 2 turns. Why? They didn't want to trade?

We have actually only researched Math for one turn. Unless Melior has posted a new save.

Sorry, my mistake. I've only looked at math beakers and I was surprised with math 48/357. We only had +23 at the previous turn by my count so the rest is overflow I guess.

@Organized Religion

I don't think we will use this anytime soon! Caste system and Pacifism should be our next civic changes, IMO. As many GPP as possible will bring us prosperity Besides, Slavery looks good for popping aqueduct with overflow to GL.

Archery

Archery is a cheap tech that we can easily research. We could also easily pick that up if we really want to anytime. Besides, we need iron for CN, if we are going to use them at all. Maybe there is no iron in BFC.

@save posting

I agree, it's a good idea to post some saves here, when we are not changing players.

Waiting for Melior I've send him a PM to post his final plans. We will need a save or a screenshot on the next turn to discuss further trading.

 

[Balbes]

I do not agree with some of the ideas raised for the next turnset, but I'm waiting for somebody else to challenge them first

 

[Melior Traiano]

I do not agree with some of the ideas raised for the next turnset, but I'm waiting for somebody else to challenge them first

It appears there are some things we should give more thought to. I will ponder our situation some more later tonight.

 

[Yamps]

I do not agree with some of the ideas raised for the next turnset, but I'm waiting for somebody else to challenge them first

Well, nothing new.

Does anybody have a clue what exactly does he mean by that?

Maybe skipping Meditation?
Maybe not building HG?

 

[Morganknight]

Maybe nonsequiter, but, have we decided yet how we want to win?

 

[marconos]

I believe hanging gardens is a bad idea. AI has had math too long already and they will have it. We will not have time after building the GL to get it.

We need to get Archery, just having the tech counts as power and our power level is too low IMO.

Get Poly as quickly as we can now and get going on the track to lit. We need get going on the GL if we hope to get it. I really hope we can safely get the library without chopping. Chopping is going to kill us late game by losing the healthy. We need as much as we can get IMO. I also think we should step out and pillage the farm that we built. Let's give as many chances to ourselves as we can to get a forest to grow there.

That's about all I have on what has been discussed. As far as the trades I'm not worried about the trade cap at all. Heck we are only going to be trading until we get our PA anyway. After that, who knows right?

 

[Ankka]

HG is too far in the future to be absolutely relevant now. The next turnset should be until the GL is built, after that we'll re-evaluate the situation.

 

[kcd_swede]

I believe hanging gardens is a bad idea. AI has had math too long already and they will have it. We will not have time after building the GL to get it.

We need to get Archery, just having the tech counts as power and our power level is too low IMO.

Get Poly as quickly as we can now and get going on the track to lit. We need get going on the GL if we hope to get it. I really hope we can safely get the library without chopping. Chopping is going to kill us late game by losing the healthy. We need as much as we can get IMO. I also think we should step out and pillage the farm that we built. Let's give as many chances to ourselves as we can to get a forest to grow there.

That's about all I have on what has been discussed. As far as the trades I'm not worried about the trade cap at all. Heck we are only going to be trading until we get our PA anyway. After that, who knows right?

HG is an unecessary diversion, but we can take that discussion later.

My own preference is to focus entirely on GL, and that means only trading for techs in the critical path. Once we acheive that objective, we can re-assess what techs we can fill in. Archery? Med? Sailing? I don't see a need. We built walls for power parity, we don't need archery yet.

Chopping won't be an issue in late game because of PA. Maybe in mid-game, but probably not. I think we will be able to trade for health if/when we need it.

Org Rel should be avoided until/unless we are aligning with PA target. 25% building bonus sounds good, but it isn't that great. Slavery is MUCH more powerful at this stage.

I AM worried about the WFYABTA. I have hit that wall many times myself. And Balbes seems to be suggesting that we should be concerned here, and his experience shouldn't be discarded.

Our whole strat is hinged on getting GL, we should concentrate on just that.

OTOH, I am not that good of a player, so take what I say with very many grains of salt. I'd like to learn why you guys think the other stuff is worth the risk. Oh, and btw, you guys have been doing fantastic while I've been away.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Well, I'm not sure what I could be missing, but I'm gonna propose doing the following:

• trade for Poly + Sailing from Washington to pick up +diplomacy hit
  
• trade for Math from Asoka
  
• set research to Lit
  
• trade Math (+ Sailing, if necessary) for IW from Liz, but not if she already has Lit
  
• finish up Library ASAP, hire two scientists
  
• revolt to Rep + Slavery
  
• have Worker stay home & pre-chop forests for GL
  
• build some units for self-defense

OK, what'd I miss?

 

[Yamps]

Well, I'm not sure what I could be missing, but I'm gonna propose doing the following:

• trade for Poly + Sailing from Washington to pick up +diplomacy hit
  
• trade for Math from Asoka
  
• set research to Lit
  
• trade Math (+ Sailing, if necessary) for IW from Liz, but not if she already has Lit
  
• finish up Library ASAP, hire two scientists
  
• revolt to Rep + Slavery
  
• have Worker stay home & pre-chop forests for GL
  
• build some units for self-defense

OK, what'd I miss?

It would be nice if Balbes would say a bit more. This way we are only getting confused.


1) If we are trading two techs from Washington, why Sailing? I still think Meditation is better. Maybe Balbes wouldn't trade two techs, maybe just Poly. Or he wouldn't trade for Poly at all.

2) Math is a good trade. Do that before you trade for anything else. (Order of trades matters)

3) Research on Literature. We have a consensus here, right?

4) I don't think that such a trade with Liz would be good. We should get IW for Alpha from somedy else. Remember Priesthood, Mono and Monarchy.

5) Library&scientists. We have a consensus here also.

6) Revolt to Slavery and Rep. I agree.

7) I think we should keep exploring at least a bit. We could at least do it for one more turn. We will know then if Liz has Literature. We haven't actually made any exploring with the worker yet.

8) Axeman after library? Sending a warrior to exploration?

Let's wait a bit. Balbes, care to share your opinions ?

 

[classical_hero]

That looks good.

I am also one who thinks that building the HG is a waste of time even if we can since we have no need for it.

 

[kcd_swede]

I pretty much agree with Yamps' comments above.

Other thoughts.....

Maybe this is old ground, but I just want to get some strategy things straight for my own understanding:
1) Who is our preferred PA partner at this point? 2nd choice? 3rd? And why? Does this affect our civic choices yet? Are we trying to keep them all happy right now at any cost?
2) How do the AI feel about each other? For example, If we trade with Wash does Asoka get annoyed?
3) Are the trade availabilities discussed determined by what is white on the diplo screen, or has anyone actually tested to see what the AI will in fact accept in trade? (if so, isn't that against the rules or at least the spirit of them?) Does the willingness of one AI to trade change as we trade with others? In what ways do we expect that to affect our trade goals?
4) Also... what are we going to do when as soon as we get a tech, one of our neighbors demands it in tribute?

"Alt-tab and post here" can only work for so long... so please make sure all who will play turns understand the strategy and thinks about the "anticipatable deviating events" that might occur during a turn set. I'll probably come up with more ??? as I get back into the flow of this game. Hope I don't get too tedious for you all. Better that than I would make a devastating error on the fly.

We shouldn't rush ourselves. After all, I saw there are something like 354 days left to deadline. (LOL!)

 

[Yamps]

I pretty much agree with Yamps' comments above.

Other thoughts.....

Maybe this is old ground, but I just want to get some strategy things straight for my own understanding:
1) Who is our preferred PA partner at this point? 2nd choice? 3rd? And why? Does this affect our civic choices yet? Are we trying to keep them all happy right now at any cost?
2) How do the AI feel about each other? For example, If we trade with Wash does Asoka get annoyed?
3) Are the trade availabilities discussed determined by what is white on the diplo screen, or has anyone actually tested to see what the AI will in fact accept in trade? (if so, isn't that against the rules or at least the spirit of them?) Does the willingness of one AI to trade change as we trade with others? In what ways do we expect that to affect our trade goals?
4) Also... what are we going to do when as soon as we get a tech, one of our neighbors demands it in tribute?

"Alt-tab and post here" can only work for so long... so please make sure all who will play turns understand the strategy and thinks about the "anticipatable deviating events" that might occur during a turn set. I'll probably come up with more ??? as I get back into the flow of this game. Hope I don't get too tedious for you all. Better that than I would make a devastating error on the fly.

We shouldn't rush ourselves. After all, I saw there are something like 354 days left to deadline. (LOL!)

Welcome back to the team kcd_swede!

1) PA partner. We haven't discussed it yet. I think it is too early to say for now. Personally, I think we should rush for the Military Tradition. It is important to ask the strongest civ on our continent first for the defensive pact so after 40 turns of DP we can ask first for the PA.

2) You are welcomed to look at the save. Everybody is annoyed with Toku. I am not at my civ comp right now to tell exactly.

3) Melior has posted trading possibilities. You can check it yourself, just don't do the trade by accident or sth. Watch what you click.

I've noticed in my games that trading possibilities change after every trade, prises go up. Btw, there was an idea to give Mysticism to Toku before, but we decided not to because Toku is Washington's worst enemy. Other trades aren't a problem.

4) We haven't mentioned this either. "They ask, we give" should be our policy to everything except war declarations and trade embargoes, IMO. Anyway, it is always good to alt+tab and post.

(Just make sure that you haven't been messing with the .ini file. There is an option there that can cause the game to crash if alt+tab is pressed. Crashes every time if that setting is on.)

Regarding questions, the more we ask them, better of we will be!
"Question everything!" After all, we are unusually suspicious subjects!

EDIT: (deadline)

No, that was a mistake by AlanH, he corrected it. We should finish in three months.

 

[kcd_swede]

1)Welcome back to the team kcd_swede!

2) Personally, I think we should rush for the Military Tradition.
2) You are welcomed to look at the save.

3) Melior has posted trading possibilities. You can check it yourself, just don't do the trade by accident or sth.
4) We haven't mentioned this either. "They ask, we give" should be our policy to everything except war declarations and trade embargoes, IMO. Anyway, it is always good to alt+tab and post.

Thanks, its good to be back, except for the jet-lag.
I didn't know I could open the save as long as I don't do anything. I might have to take a look. As for what they will trade, you just ask "What would you give me for this" or "What do you want for this" and see what they offer but don't execute, right? I guess in real play you might try to haggle them down, but not in test mode.

They ask, we give, even if it's Toku (who is probably most likely to make demands)? Won't that get us in trouble with some others? Or are we just in the "survive without war" phase and can accept that hit with the more friendly civs?

Later!

 

[marconos]

Toku we need to refuse anything he asks of us. Giving in to his demands can easily give us a -1 with our neighbors that we care about. If it gets us into a war we may be able to bribe one of our neighbors to kill him?

 

[Ankka]

I _seriously_ think we should play faster. Balbes might be a really good player, but we need to make our own decisions. Mistakes often teach more than another player's good play.

 

[marconos]

I _seriously_ think we should play faster. Balbes might be a really good player, but we need to make our own decisions. Mistakes often teach more than another player's good play.

I do feel like we are playing slow BUT, we are a new team and getting a feel for each other. The other thing I look at is only one other team has played as many turns as we have.

In any case ... who is up right now and what are they doing? From what I understood I was just swapping with the next person and they did the trades then back to me to do my 10 turns. Am I up now? From what I understand we have only done two turns.