SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Morganknight]

1>classical_hero
2>kcd_swede skip
3>marconos up
4>Melior Traiano on deck
5>Morganknight
6>shikhee
7>vra379971
8>Yamps

 

[vra379971]

As we are heading to tech trading, and marconos feels not to sure there, we'll swap him as well. So, Melior Traiano, you are up next!

 

[shikhee]

just played this out a couple times using the test map, so different AIs some trades might not be applicable.

62: Alphabet (traded and got Myst, Arch, Animal Husbandry, Sailing, BW in 2 trades)

66: Polytheism, Library (cue Archer), Mansa traded Iron Working for Alphabet (I don't think this has happened before, could be irrelevant in the real game)

At size 6 (max happy), I wasn't able to use 2 Scientists without -1 growth and not compromising production of Archer (at 3 turns now) too much. 38 Beakers was the best I could do (crab, crab, marble, fur, 2 x Sci). Lit takes 7 turns. I have no issue with -ve growth, but does anyone else (food is currently maxed).

69: Archer ... I'm going to vote for building Scout (instead of 2nd Archer) because: The worker-exploration is highly tempting, but now we've traded Alpha we can Pasturise the Sheep + Cow, build our roads and be ready to chop for GL asap. We can't do any of this if worker explores

71: Scout (cue Archer, swapped crab for stone to finish in 2 turns rather than 3 which immediately lines us up for GL - started chopping a forest which will finish on first GL turn, alternative is Obelisk in the same timeframe).

72: Great Engineer! Built into City (swapped stone for crab, +3 hammers from Engineer keeps Archer/Obelisk to 1 more turn)

73: Literature! (traded Lit for Meditation + Priesthood, and was able to trade Maths not sure if dooable in real game) (next tree: Code of Laws > Civil Service for Burocracy), built Archer (GL next!), was only able to trade for Monotheism & Meditation (some civs had Maths + Code of Laws but wouldn't trade).

Options to build GL:
8 turns : crab, crab, stone, marble, fur, farm +1 growth (won't grow), +2 GP, 36 Beakers
9 turns : crab, stone, marble, fur, 1xscientist, -1 growth (should not reduce size), +5 GP, 38 Beakers
12 turns: crab, crab, stone, fur, 2xscientist, -1 growth (will almost reduce size), +8 GP, 36 Beakers

I went 12 turn option with the plan to chop 2 forests, and I think max GP is vital for OCC!

80: Great Library (cue National Wonder... +16 GP currently, +100% will be killer!) // to build GL in 7 turns - 2 chops (I 1 hill and 1 grassland), swapped crab for extra production for a couple turns, food reserves very low but constant max GP!

REVOLT: we now have the options of Rep, Slavery + Organised Religion. 2 of these will make 1 turn, all 3 is 2 turns revolt. Happiness is an issue, so while we have the growth for Slavery we'll probably find the unhappiness from it being the issue in city growth over the loss of Pop. Test game I still don't have any religions but sounds like we have options in the real game and +25% production is super!

85: Code of Laws

So... whyaddya think ?

 

[classical_hero]

I will put up my hand and say that I did make a mistake when I farmed that tile. I was trying to think of something to do with the worker, so that was done. Had I thought abut it I would have scouted with the worker. That was a brilliant idea.

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

Our position is considerably different than in the test game, we can't trade with two civs and GL could be build by AI sooner than expected. But I think that if we just stay cool and play this right we will accomplish our goals.

Melior Traiano, what is your exact plan?

I'll repeat my views in brief:

As I see it, we have two goals here:

1) Getting everything for Alphabet
2) Getting GL

1) I will repeat the opinion on worker exploring that Balbes suggested. It is vital that we get in contact with all civs ASAP. Waiting a bit with pasture is nothing compared to the risk of not getting a lot of techs from the trade. We don't want old techs from Washington, Elizabeth and Asoka. They are advanced, we want new techs. Worker should move strait through the continent, just to meet everybody, then we can bring him back.

2) First we continue the rush for Alpha with max commerce. Then we want to go trading ASAP. That's why we need to find backward civs fast, so we don't have to wait much. Trading low techs from advanced civs would be a critical error for the game. Isabella looks like a good first trading partner.

On the turn we get Alpha, we can't research nothing better than Drama. You should post at this point what trading options do we really have. Since we are rushing the library, this is a good moment to maximize production for 1 turn. Next turn we want Poly from a trade and we can maximize commerce again and switch to Literature.


What next?
3)When we build a library, we should evaluate the position again. Do we revolt or not at this point? Maybe it is best to wait for COL, I am not certain at this point.

 

[Balbes]

I was trying to think of something to do with the worker, so that was done.

This is why writing a pre-turn plan is important. When you are writing things down, it becomes very clear if your planning is deficient. You may even get some fresh ideas while doing so, or the teammates can think of something new.

Our captain still has not introduced a pattern for planning - decision making - execution. SGOTMs are a structured teamwork activity, and simply rushing ahead has been shown to result in sub-optimal performance.

 

[vra379971]

I take the not so subtle hint.

I'm done university for the years as of today, So I will put foward a full plan as of tomorrow, as sson as I wrap up this last paper.

 

[shikhee]

2) Getting GL

If getting GL first and fastest is the goal, we can get Literacy in 13-16 turns (depending on if we can trade for Priesthood), and for super-quick GL we need to chop. That only gives the worker 4-6 exploration turns in one direction before having to come back, now that we have archers surely the warrior will be better because he'll never have to come back ?

We certainly don't need the worker right now for Sheep, Cow or roads - but he is vital for earliest chopped GL. Alternatively build 1 less Archer and get the Scout (how about sending the worker in 1 direction for 5 turns, then the scout in the other when built ?).

1) Worker should move strait through the continent, just to meet everybody, then we can bring him back.

If we can spare the 5-6(ish) extra turns to build GL without chopping then he's free to explore.

On the turn we get Alpha, we can't research nothing better than Drama.

Why ? Our culture is set for the game, and Globe Theatre is a National Wonder so there is no race... so I don't see why it should take precedence over Lit/GL.

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

If getting GL first and fastest is the goal, we can get Literacy in 13-16 turns (depending on if we can trade for Priesthood), and for super-quick GL we need to chop. That only gives the worker 4-6 exploration turns in one direction before having to come back, now that we have archers surely the warrior will be better because he'll never have to come back ?

First, we don't need Priesthood, we need Polytheism. Time frame:

Turn 0 (now, end of turn))

Turn 1: Alpha in one. Worker still in our lands (those farming turns are a real problem now...)

Turn 2: We have Alpha. We must get Mysticism (from Isabella in my opinion) We could also get AH and Archery. Worker in America, close to England.

Now, at this point what would you research? You can't research Literature because we don't now Polytheism. Researching Polytheisam for 2-3 turns? We want to trade for that next turn. Note that it isn't possible to trade for Poly on this turn! We have 1 turn to maximize production. What else if not Drama for 1 turn only? We shall see what are we going to research next after Literature. COL or Drama? That is the question.

Turn 3: Worker reaches England. Who do we trade with? Problems. Maybe worker meets a foreign scout? Taking Poly + sth else from Asoka if nothing better. We start Literature with max commerce.

Now, Literature should be researched in ~8 turns I believe. I also think that the GL should be built fast enough (~9 turns) without the chops, maybe just one chop. We have to watch if Liz wants Literature or not. It is hard to model this without the exact test game.

...now that we have archers surely the warrior will be better because he'll never have to come back ?

We certainly don't need the worker right now for Sheep, Cow or roads - but he is vital for earliest chopped GL. Alternatively build 1 less Archer and get the Scout (how about sending the worker in 1 direction for 5 turns, then the scout in the other when built ?).

Watching how many turns it takes for a worker to come back is a smart idea. Building a scout and 1 archer seems good too. Warrior is slow, but that's also an option. But how much time for this? We are building a library first, right? What tiles do we work? That 1 turn of maximizing production is important for faster production.

I'll tray to calculate things just by looking at the save!

P.S. Usually my attitude about calculations is this: If I wanted to calculate, I wouldn't be playing right now, I would be studying for some RL exams! Well... Let's do some math.

 

[shikhee]

Now, at this point what would you research? You can't research Literature because we don't now Polytheism. Researching Polytheisam for 2-3 turns? We want to trade for that next turn. Note that it isn't possible to trade for Poly on this turn!

What is wrong with research Poly for 1 turn ? It makes it "cheaper" in our trades, so easier to get (if possible). Even so it can be researched in 3-4 turns, then Literacy in 7 turns.

Now, Literature should be researched in ~8 turns I believe.

Every test game I have done I could always make it 7 turns (Poly was max 4 turns).

I also think that the GL should be built fast enough (~9 turns) without the chops, maybe just one chop. We have to watch if Liz wants Literature or not. It is hard to model this without the exact test game.

GL is possible in 9 turns with NO chops, but we sacrifice our science, growth (at least -2 per turn) and (I think most importantly) Great People...

If we can keep our 2 Scientists and found our GP as early as possible, we benefit better for the rest of the game. Same theory as Balbes said with Anarchy... it is worth as much as your last turn minus one. In OCC, GP are crucial, and something we should maximise upon at every opportunity.

Watching how many turns it takes for a worker to come back is a smart idea. Building a scout and 1 archer seems good too. Warrior is slow, but that's also an option. But how much time for this? We are building a library first, right? What tiles do we work? That 1 turn of maximizing production is important for faster production.

All these are covered in my outlined turn-base itemisation above except for worker moves (... from turn 60 if we head straight for GL we have 13 turns before we need/want/maybe chop. Maybe better alternative, send worker 1 direction for 5 turns, build Scout first THEN Archer (finish Scout turn 68, send in different direction to Worker) - if we have no -ve with our 3 neighbours then it should be safe.

P.S. Usually my attitude about calculations is this: If I wanted to calculate, I wouldn't be playing right now, I would be studying for some RL exams! Well... Let's do some math.

hehe - I agree, test games are more fun than calculating theories!!! Theories also usually miss some minor detail that turns out vital somewhere

PS - also, for what its worth, I found that Farm was not a complete waste, and for a few turns of micromanaging it helped to get a tech 1 turn faster while still growing + producing (don't recall specifics, might have been on Polytheism) .. the only other thing the worker could have done was explore - which is a function for a worker I have NEVER thought of before.

Also... next screenshots someone posts, can you please include the resources tab ? 3 silver was mentioned earlier and I can't see the third!!!). Can't wait to learn about Copper after our Alphabet trades (could make a dif. to strategy). Although I still hold my conviction that we are given every positive opportunity possible because the game is a OCC Deity, and thus will find Copper and/or Iron within our easy culture if not city limits itself!

 

[Yamps]

@Shikhee

"If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts!" A.Einstein

Poly

We don't need to make it cheaper. We can get this + sth else. Why should we wait for few turns? Nice opportunity for increasing production...

Chopping & GL

We will need every health resource later on. I would rather rush with maximizing production as needed. Well, theories...

To farm or not to farm, that is the question! I don't really understand for how long and exactly when was the farm used. Well, it is over now.

Silver
There is no more silver. We have one and Liz has one. I think that the story was +3 happiness (Silver 1 + Representation 2).


Anyway, maybe we should decide to do sth?
Melior Traiano, you are next, right?

 

[marconos]

I agree on NOT chopping for the GL. Health is going to become a huge problem as we grow. Especially if we drop in a forge / factory etc etc.

I agree that we shouldn't do any research on poly. No point if we are just going to trade for it. Not knowing all our neighbors for trading is actually our biggest problem. Sending out the worker for exploration .... how many more do you think we can find? Course a tiny map should be quick.

If Melior isn't around I can grab the download and take my turns. I would be able to run them tonight around 9:00 est.

 

[Morganknight]

It seems we all conur to play the next two turns, long enough to get Alphabet. Over the course of those two turns, send the worker south to meet other potential trade partners...use roads to make it quicker? After those two turns, we can open discussion back up, but somebody (anybody) could take those two turns to get us to that point. Turn order is irrelevant at this point since we know what we need to do. I would play them myself, but am at work for another 2 hours.

Until we actually get Alphabet, everything is just idle speculation.

 

[vra379971]

It seems we all conur to play the next two turns, long enough to get Alphabet. Over the course of those two turns, send the worker south to meet other potential trade partners...use roads to make it quicker? After those two turns, we can open discussion back up, but somebody (anybody) could take those two turns to get us to that point. Turn order is irrelevant at this point since we know what we need to do. I would play them myself, but am at work for another 2 hours.

Until we actually get Alphabet, everything is just idle speculation.

...Which is why I mailed him last night and he replied saying he'd do so and post it up =)

 

[kcd_swede]

Oi? Vacation?

I must have missed that one. Okay, well skip him and move down the roster.

Not vacation, business travel. No, I havent returned yet. I am unable to play any turns at this time. Back after May 2, so hop over me this time and I will play in the next round. Sounds like you guys have things under control.
Too bad about acidsatyr, but we have a good foundation to build on.

 

[shikhee]

"If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts!" A.Einstein

Yes - I agree too, we should cheat :~D *Alan! that is a joke*

Poly

Sorry, I thought you said somewhere we couldn't trade for this straight away ? If we can't trade for it straight away then how do you know we can trade for it next turn ?

I think after Literacy our goal should be getting the Beurocracy civic (+50% prod/gold in capital) which is Priesthood (tradeable?) > Code of Laws > Civil Service ... How much do we win or loose by deviating from this path ?

(The more I think about it the more deviating for a few turns for Drama and building Globe Theatre is the better path, but we still have to ask this question!).

Chopping & GL

We will need every health resource later on. I would rather rush with maximizing production as needed. Well, theories...

I can't help but want to build a cottage or 2, if we don't then the gold we see is all the gold we're going to get! Also I believe we will need 1 or 2 farms on grassland for our growth... 1 test game I never got much past 13/14 Pop (later game) because I didn't farm anywhere.

To farm or not to farm, that is the question!
The answer is: A Fish! I think it was mentioned in passing that it was used for a couple rounds (for the extra 1 gold), but it is useless to us now.

Anyway, maybe we should decide to do sth?
Melior Traiano, you are next, right?

I think we can build the GL without chopping, but I think we need to keep our 2 scientists always in play (is GL before other civs safe in 12 turns without chop?), we also have the option to chop outside of our city radius (2NE and maybe 2SE if our border grows).

 

[vra379971]

I would honestly prefer to cutback on scientists to get the GL faster.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Melior Traiano, what is your exact plan?

So I interpreted the instructions I got in the PM from our captain as "finish researching Alphabet & report back to the team which trades are available." That's what I was planning to do, but if you guys want me to use my best judgment on tech trades, I can do that too & hopefully avoid making any trades. Request further instructions.

 

[vra379971]

No, please just play the 2 and we'll make some concrete plans then.

 

[Yamps]

Poly

Sorry, I thought you said somewhere we couldn't trade for this straight away ? If we can't trade for it straight away then how do you know we can trade for it next turn ?

I think after Literacy our goal should be getting the Beurocracy civic (+50% prod/gold in capital) which is Priesthood (tradeable?) > Code of Laws > Civil Service ... How much do we win or loose by deviating from this path ?

(The more I think about it the more deviating for a few turns for Drama and building Globe Theatre is the better path, but we still have to ask this question!).

Whenever you trade for a prerequisite tech, you can't trade for the following tech on the same turn. Mysticism is a prerequisite for Poly so you can't trade for Poly on the same turn you get Mysticism. I have two reasons to expect Polytheism to be available:

1) Testing experience
2) Looking at the GNP, I'm pretty sure that Washington and Elizabeth have it. Asoka has it for sure because he also has Monotheism (Jewish religion).

We should get Priesthood from a trade if we don't
We will have to evaluate that Drama detour when we research Literature.

Chopping & GL

I can't help but want to build a cottage or 2, if we don't then the gold we see is all the gold we're going to get! Also I believe we will need 1 or 2 farms on grassland for our growth... 1 test game I never got much past 13/14 Pop (later game) because I didn't farm anywhere.

I think we can build the GL without chopping, but I think we need to keep our 2 scientists always in play (is GL before other civs safe in 12 turns without chop?), we also have the option to chop outside of our city radius (2NE and maybe 2SE if our border grows).

Cottages? Farms? Yeah, we will chop for farms as needed actually. About the GL deadline, I remember Acid mentioning a 900 BC deadline. When we see that some civ doesn't want Literature, we can't really wait and see.

You know, I think you are right. Keeping those scientists might be critical for the next rush. We will do some chopping anyway, so it is best to do it with a bonus. Our next rush is Liberalism, right? Do we have the time for Drama or not?
But we will put those scientists to the mines from time to time probably , when building NE for example.