SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

Sorry for double post but just though of something to add.

I'm project Cathy will declare war in 2 - 3 turns, if that makes any difference to your thoughts.

As for building the farm. I figured I would rebuild it as it gives us an option of food + prod + gold depending on what we need. There may be times where that tile might be better to work then some other tile. As well forest won't spread there as I don't believe there are any forests next to it anymore.
 
All right, we have a consensus here, I'll play now.

Roster:

1 - marconos - just played!
2 - classical_hero - on deck! (possibly swapped)
4 - Melior Traiano - therefore on deck too! :)
6 - shikhee - expected back soon
7 - Yamps - UP! (swapped with Marconos)

8 - Ankka (unofficially resigned)
9 - vra379971 - save opening problems
3 - kcd_swede - comp problems
5 - Morganknight - save opening problems

Balbes - where are you Balbes? Watching EURO 2008 ? ;) Great play Russia!

@Marconos

Regarding the farm, the same reasoning as before should apply here:

Oh ya, sorry about double post. About working the forest.

Forest 2f / 1 H -- 3 turns == 6f 3h
Working Farm for 2 turns and stone for 1 turns == 6f 5h

We are better of swapping back and forth then ever working the forest directly.

That's a hunch regarding Cathy's war declaration timing, or do you have a reason?
 
I've played for one turn, everything went as planned. :) Kublai converted for free, he was pleased to help his good friend. :)

Marconos, you are right about the farm, there are no forests near. I've thought a lot about that crazy tile, that's going to be an excellent Watermill one day! Replaceable parts + Electricity + Financial will give us a 1 :food: 3:hammers: 4 :gold: tile one day!

The reason that I'm posting is this:

Marconos, how many Galleons did Cathy have? You said 4, only 2 are accounted for ATM! Please, try to remember. Cathy doesn't want to trade with us anymore! She says that she'll never trade with us, her worst enemy! And that's coming from a girl that will basically never stop trading. She still has enough on her hands.

I'm building another Caravel for exploration, the Cathy situation is disturbing. Good thing we have Cyrus on our side. :)

We got one more :health: as planned, I'm hiring the 5th scientist ATM, but I'll MM with the mine tile probably.

Checking out, back to play!
 
Watermill, I had though of that. The reason I thought the farm might be better is 2f 1h 1C -vs- working a water till with 2f 3c. Get's us a little extra hammers with some commerce. I was working 2f 3c tiles a lot on my turns. Watermill in the future absoluetly.

Cathy had 4 Galleons, 2 in her SE city and 2 in her far S city that is right down by the ice. My thoughts on when she would be declaring war is based on how long it took Monty to declare war from when he started saying we have too much on our hands.

Edit:
She could have moved them between those two cities as I was never able to see both of those cities on the same turn.
 
I've finished playing! I dare to say that things are excellent for us! :D

I'll need some time for the report.
 
There were some scary moments, but things played out just fine. :) I have to say, I've made some important decisions on my own. I thought a lot about stopping and asking for confirmation, but I was convinced that the decisions were correct and wanted to save time. Judge for yourself and criticize if necessary. ;) Well, here is the report:

T165

Did the planned things:

Converted Kublai (for free!), DP with Cyrus, canceled DP with Fred, OB with Cathy. Bought the Clam for Stone, got Deer back for more health. Whales deal I couldn't cancel then. After a lot of considerations, I finished the farm. That's a future Watermill, but not yet. Hired the 5th scientist. Didn't want to push our luck, Cyrus and Saladin had one more gold for the trade, but I was worried that canceling deals with them would change things. Upgraded a maceman to a gren. Scouting Russia with Caravel.

T166

Cyrus offered Divine right +100 :gold: for Liberalism. I didn't plan to trade, JC has everything. Besides, Liberalism trade could bring Free religion to Cyrus and change relations. Btw, Cyrus also completed SoL!

Cathy decided to stop trading! We were hers worst enemies, she said, and refused trading. WHEOOHRN still active like before, no wars yet.

Izzy dropped back to annoyed.

T167

NY revolted for the first time! We also gained iron and oil! Scientific method researched. AI didn't have Physics, I decided to go after that. I calculated that going for Communism first would be too soon, Physics first was the right thing to do.

T168

Liz has Physics! I couldn't see that the turn before. After some considerations, I decided to go for Biology. Communism was to soon, and JC had everything else. This was a tough call, but you will see that this was a right decision.

T169

Capac demanded that we cancel deals with Fred. Missionary was almost there for the conversion, bad timing. Tough call, we want Capac too to be friendly. I declined. Btw, I had finished the gren, built another caravel, missionary and started building cannons. Cannons are not 14 :strength:, only 12 :blush:, but still better against LB than grens. I'm micromanaging and using the farm ;) to build a cannon every 2 turns.

T170

Time for another decision. I started thinking about Free market again. One more trade route was 10 :commerce:. +50% bureaucracy gives 15 base commerce. Science multipliers were at 225%. 15 x 325% = 48.75 :gold: We were losing that every turn! I estimated that we had enough money from resources and enough gold in treasury to sustain Pacifism for a long time. In fact, we had so much to last at lest till Environmentalism. That would mean skipping Free Market entirely, not an optimal decision. We should have revolted to Free Market immediately. Anyway, I calculated that the revolt is still profitable and revolted to Free Market.

T171

I realized that I had made a serious mistake, really critical. :cry::mad: Cathy's Galleons were not in the port and I had no idea were they had gone! :wallbash: I had just moved a Caravel a bit to scout Izzy, Cathy didn't have much troops and I didn't expect her to go anywhere. That was a real blunder on my side, sorry guys!

Well, after some deep breaths and a short break from play, I started hunting down those Galleons. Scout and warrior were patrolling the coast, I decided to build another Caravel for exploration too.

T172

A big relief! Louis attacked Mansa and Cathy attacked Hatty! Attack on Mansa was expected, attack on Hatty was probable too. Cathy was only cautious with her, and she loves to dog-pile. Monty was still at war with Hatty and Alex was the only one with WHEOOHRN and not in war. However, I was still concerned about those Galleons. Could Cathy still attack us, 2 civs at the same time?

T173

I continued with the cannons. I couldn't attack Cathy first, that would cancel DP. Therefore frigates couldn't stop her and cannons were planned anyway. I asked Fred to convert. He did it for free! I could have asked him that a turn or so before, but I was a bit preoccupied with more pressing matters of the state. *cough* misplaced galleons *cough* :mischief:. I also finally sold whales to Capac for 2 :gold: I was begging for stuff constantly, btw. Could you spare Corporation to a good friend? No? What about Replaceable parts? :) Didn't get anything, but you have to ask you know. :) Still didn't want to give anything to the AI. Like I said, JC had it all. Why should we help the AI?

T174

Alex wanted us to stop trading with Liz. Yeah, right. Kublai wanted MT for DR + cash. Well, no. Most important thing that happened: war with Hatty is over! And no, it didn't end with a peace treaty! Hatty had some grens, I scouted the fight with a caravel. (Btw, those galleons were not there! *gulp*) However, Cathy had a mean stack of rifles. I couldn't help Hatty in no way, she didn't have a chance. Egypt out! I'll post some screenshots of the fight later, really scary. At least Monty and Cathy don't have enough on their hands anymore.

T175

2 galleons and 2 frigates finally spotted in Heliopolis! :hmm: I was controlling all the possible attack lines, it seems that those ships never moved far from St Petersburg. I believe they actually went south to Moscow for some reason.

T176

Louis asked for OB. Declined, he was still at war with MM and Louis had other enemies too. No reason to OB with him. Mansa Musa was losing the war, btw. Helping him was not an option, JC was annoyed with Mansa.

T177

I was scouting Alex at that time, he had a nasty stack of Maceman, still preparing for war.

T178

Liz wants to trade RP + cash for Steel. Well, same answer. :p
Biology researched, started Communism. More food from Biology enabled more scientists, 6 were hired. That reduced the ETA for Communism from 7 to 6 turns.

T179

I felt that another Caravel would serve us well for early warning duties, this is very important. If we want to attack, we have to move a lot of soldiers out of the city and that's risky. Btw, I had turned on the "show enemy moves" and "show friendly moves" options to see AI movements at the end of turn.

Fred was at +10 and friendly, Capac at +10 and pleased, hidden modifiers. Signing DP with both Fred and Washington was possible, but that would have been an unnecessary risk.

T180

Well, I had played for 15 turns. However, everything was so close, Communism, PA, everything. Stopping at the PA point was the logical place to stop. Just...few...more...turns! :mischief: ;)

Enrico Fermi was born! Yes! Enough with the artists. I settled him in the city. However, bulbing becomes an option now, game will be finished soon.

T181

Asoka discovered Communism. Btw, many civs had MT already at that point, no good. Didn't want to trade MT, there were no good trades for us.

T182

Didn't note anything, nothing important.

T183

Kublai and Capac sign DP. Oh, well.

T184

Communism discovered! As calculated, PA was not available yet! Few more turns were needed. What to research? JC has everything except Medicine. We need Medicine for extra health, so Medicine it is. I emphasized production at that point for more cannons. We don't have enough production for war, we will need lumber mills, possibly workshops!

Cathy and Saladin signed a DP as feared, they can sign DP when Pleased. However, I don't think that they'll be able to sign a PA, PA demands Friendly. I don't think that there are exceptions, but that should be checked.

T185

Cathy canceled OB, Washington wanted to trade Steel for RP.

T186

PA possible! PA signed! Techs acquired, AI doesn't have anything to offer anymore! However, some won't trade Democracy, Physics and Steam Power. JC will provide Physics on the next turn. LB upgraded to rifles, we still have cash.

Stopping here.

We can cancel the Stone deal now, we have just gained Clam! New York is on one size 1 btw, embedded by our culture.

I've build 8 cannons, 1 gren, 1 missionary and 3 caravels. That's 1120 :hammers:, not bad for 21 turns. However, we don't have enough soldiers for the attack. We could attack Izzy or Toku soon. They don't even have gunpowder, we can build a unit every 2 turns. That will improve after Medicine (~10 turns for that). Sadly, domination doesn't look possible, but we should attack Izzy and Toku first and re-evaluate.

Signing PA with JC changed relations a lot. Cyrus and Fred were Friendly, relations dropped to Pleased. Even the relations with JC dropped, we don't have OB and DP bonuses anymore. Of course, that doesn't matter. Another thing, Alex had WHEOOHRN the last time I checked on turn 184. He is not preparing for war anymore, I believe PA changed that.

The position requires thorough investigation. What's our victory condition? Starting a war would cancel DP with Cyrus, Cathy and Sal both hate us. Let's take some time to examine this. I'll upload the save and post some screenshots now.

This is an important point, I'm expecting contribution from everybody! :)
 
Save game:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_AD1260_01.Civ4SavedGame

Log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1050 AD to 1260 AD:

Turn 165, 1050 AD: Kublai Khan converts to Judaism!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Free Market!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Cyrus has completed The Statue of Liberty!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Saladin's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 166, 1060 AD: You have discovered Scientific Method!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Rembrandt van Rijn has been born in Bombay!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Saladin adopts Representation!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Tokugawa adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: A Chinese revolt has taken place in New York!

Turn 167, 1070 AD: Werner Heisenberg has been born in London!

Turn 168, 1080 AD: Montezuma's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 169, 1090 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Free Market!

Turn 170, 1100 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: SGOTM07 adopts Free Market!
Turn 170, 1100 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 171, 1110 AD: Cyrus adopts Emancipation!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Catherine has declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Norbert Rillieux has been born in Tiwanaku!
Turn 171, 1110 AD: Louis XIV has declared war on Mansa Musa!

Turn 172, 1120 AD: Frederick converts to Judaism!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Free Market!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Asoka adopts Universal Suffrage!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Asoka adopts Emancipation!
Turn 172, 1120 AD: Saladin's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 173, 1130 AD: Nain Singh has been born in Kyoto!
Turn 173, 1130 AD: Thebes has been captured by the Russian Empire!!!
Turn 173, 1130 AD: The Egyptian Civilization has been destroyed!!!

Turn 174, 1140 AD: Montezuma adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 177, 1170 AD: You have discovered Biology!
Turn 177, 1170 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Representation!

Turn 179, 1190 AD: Enrico Fermi has been born in Beijing!
Turn 179, 1190 AD: Mohammed Shah has been born in Tenochtitlan!
Turn 179, 1190 AD: Elizabeth adopts Emancipation!
Turn 179, 1190 AD: Jeanne d'Arc has been born in Mecca!
Turn 179, 1190 AD: Catherine adopts Emancipation!

Turn 180, 1200 AD: Washington adopts Representation!

Turn 181, 1210 AD: Narak has been born in Susa!

Turn 183, 1230 AD: You have discovered Communism!
Turn 183, 1230 AD: Louis XIV adopts Theocracy!

Turn 184, 1240 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Cyrus
Turn 184, 1240 AD: Elizabeth has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 184, 1240 AD: Andrei Sakharov has been born in Moscow!

Turn 185, 1250 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Catherine for Open Borders

Turn 186, 1260 AD: Saladin has 210 gold available for trade
Turn 186, 1260 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Julius Caesar for Open Borders
Turn 186, 1260 AD: Deal Canceled: Defensive Pact to Julius Caesar for Defensive Pact


Screenshots next...
 
Hatty had a lot of defenders:

Spoiler :




But Cathy was really mean:

Spoiler :





City:

Note our super specialists, there is a HOF mod option to turn them on. HOF2, "Specialists stacker" on, "Only unique super spec." off.

Spoiler :




Power:

Spoiler :




Yeah, very disturbing.

Techs:

Spoiler :


 
:goodjob:

So, now we have that PA we wanted... what next?

Cyrus is probably going for culture. Cathy will probably go for military domination over most of her continent, then build a SS very quickly. Saladin will vy for culture. Any combination of these civs in a PA is a very big threat to us. We should try to get them in wars, but not with us. Easier said than done (no help from random events in Vanilla).

Victory by SS or by Dom? For now I think the strategies have not diverged: we need to gain control of our continent. Perhaps if we are going for SS we concentrate on the best production cities, but I think starting on the ones closest to JC's borders (or ours) is the wisest, regardless. (I think we will switch to SS race eventually because our biggest advantage seems to be tech pace.)

Izzy+Toku could be wiped out quickly enough that the only repercussion is loss of DP's.

I have one idea... we could do our best to enrage Cathy and get her to declare on us. This would lose her DP with Cyrus (slowing/preventing) PA there, and even better would require Cyrus to declare on Cathy. I don't know if we could manage to do this, but it would be great for us. We couldn't do this after attacking Izzy/Toku, though, because it relies on getting attacked while still in DP with Cyrus. Do we have any other leverage to drive them apart?

Anyhow, Cathy is fickle and it might be silly to delay our plans waiting for her to do something stupid like that. But what she will likely do is attack our continent while we are at war. Maybe us, maybe dogpile. But she will be on our continent in either case. That means our wars must be quick and decisive to prevent her involvement. We need to think about the "between wars" phase, and how to repair relations with Cyrus and others in the aftermath. I think a DP with Cyrus would be good to restore. We want the other continent at war too!

But our tech path should gear towards getting us our continent before Infantry are spawning like rabbits.
 
@Kcd_swede

Hi! Any luck with your civ comp?

Regarding the game play, this is not BtS, I think that they are all going for Space here.

Cathy doesn't have a DP with Cyrus, she has it with Saladin. We still have Cyrus, although he is not friendly anymore. Pleased should be enough, he is also Pleased at JC. (Cyrus signs DP at Pleased.) I don't think that annoying Cathy even more is necessary, that won't push her to war just like that. She still needs to prepare, that could take some time.

Yes, our wars should be quick. Attack, destroy, restore DP with Cyrus. Sending missionaries to Cyrus is an option.

Cathy and Saladin are barely Pleased to each other, they need Friendly for a PA too I believe. Didn't have the time to check that yet.

We should also consider giving Chemistry to Mansa Musa now, Louis is nailing him.

Capac-Kublai pact can be broken, we can bribe them to attack Isabella for example.

Lot to think about, as usual. :)
 
I have a repair in the works for my gaming computer, am hoping it is ready later today. I'll let you know... I should have something going by the end of the week at latest.

<Regarding the game play, this is not BtS,>
Yeah. I knew that. I just have trouble keeping up with all the differences. I got BTS and Civ4 at same time and never really play Vanilla, except the occasional GOTM. So good that you keep reminding me! Embarassing, yes, but good.

<I don't think that annoying Cathy even more is necessary>
OK...maybe I just have a grudge against Russia. BTW: Balbes must be on cloud 9 right now (Euro2008)... no wonder he has no time for us low-lifes. I maybe too hard on Tre Kronor before... beating Holland proves Russia is for real, IMO. Crushing Hatty does the same in this paralell universe.

<Cathy doesn't have a DP with Cyrus, she has it with Saladin. >
OK, I got confused. Its hard to follow all when can't open saves. I understand Vra's frustration better now.

<Attack, destroy, restore DP with Cyrus. Sending missionaries to Cyrus is an option.>
Agreed. Good point. A reserve missionary or few would be nice to have for that.

<We should also consider giving Chemistry to Mansa Musa now, Louis is nailing him.>
Who besides Louis gets angry at that? Lets think if we want a stronger Louis to balance the others over there, too, or want to ensure stalemate.

<Capac-Kublai pact can be broken, we can bribe them to attack Isabella for example.>
Might be worth doing... but AFTER we reduce the Madrid garrison to almost nothing and JC is at the gates. Right?

<Lot to think about, as usual.>
Lots more to consider now that we have lots more options. But is good if whole team discuss strategy so we can decide to focus on one plan, with a couple back-ups for contingencies. How many units/what types we need keep in capitol for defence, for example.

What are our priorities for techs at this point... again, I am lost there.

Next up has a lot to consider for proposing plan.
 
Why do we want to help Mansu Musa??? Why not help Louis kill off Mansa and get him to go to war with Cathy or Saladin??? Just not sure what the love is for Mansa.
 
Why do we want to help Mansu Musa??? Why not help Louis kill off Mansa and get him to go to war with Cathy or Saladin??? Just not sure what the love is for Mansa.

That was just an idea. :) I haven't started analyzing things thoroughly yet. Helping Louis is an option too, you may be right.

Kcd_Swede, hoping to see you back in the game soon! :)

Vra, Morganknight, where are those Assets checker logs?

Classical, do you have the time for play?

Melior, you'll be next if Classical can't play, please start preparing.

We have a nice position, let's keep the good work. :thumbsup:
 
Ok, who wants to play next? :)
 
OK... In correspondence with AlanH, I have a work-around for my failed computer. It is OK for me to play on this computer and e-mail to another computer for uploading (I have a non-negotiable strong firewall here that prevents me uploading). In a few days things should be back to normal, I'm hoping. But you can put me back in the line-up now. I haven't opened the save yet... I'll do that now and get back. I assume Classical_H or Melior wil take this coming turnset, but I'll try to put up a plan of what I would do just to open discussion.
 
foreign relations: Right now, I think Saladin is our biggest threat. He is not in WHEOORN, nor is Cathy, but he is the only one with both JC and us on his sh*t-list. Only Mansa and Louis have enough on their hands.

Mansa should die, and we should help Louis bring that about. This gives us leverage to create war on far continent.
Nobody gets too upset. Only Cathy likes him, but she likes Louis too.

Trades: monte and Louis have 4 gold to trade. We should try to reneg the deal with HC (2gpt for whale). JC needs the fur for happy, so he can keep that at 2gpt. JC is suffering unhappy in Rome due to Emancipation. If we have extra happy or can get some happy for him, that would be good.

Production: How many cannons do we want? Seems like a lot already. I would start making rifle and gren, some for home defence, but most for attack. Izzy is first, and she has 13 units, nothing advanced. How many before we are satisfied to keeps home defence and have rapid victory at Madrid? I'd say finish the cannon, build 1 gren + 2 rifle, and start moving troops. Keep building units, gren, rifle, cannon in equal proportions.

Diplo: we will lose Cyrus as DP when we attack Izzy. Should be over quick an we can restore DP. Whether we can take out Toku too before restoring diplo or not, I don't know. But we should not be at war more than about 5-10 turns or we risk unwanted involvement.

Tech: we get Physics in 1, Med in 10. I have little exp with Vanilla tech path, so I don't know what to recommend.

Looking at tech rates and military situations... I'm starting t othink SS will be best, but still focus on domination our own cont.

Worker: can sleep now after watermill, or shall we build windmills soon? I notice we have 5 forest in BFC... isn't even numbers the optimum?

I hope this inspires you guys to some smart ideas... I have none.
 
kcd_swede - UP!

Others: come on people, civ is RL! ;)

I'll examine the save soon and post my opinions.
 
kcd_swede - UP!

Others: come on people, civ is RL! ;)

I'll examine the save soon and post my opinions.

Are you serious:confused: I thought Classical was up and melior if Classical is skipped.

I'm going to need to plan in much more detail if I'm up, and need help from you all.

Some questions about game mechanics: I have only played with a OCC/PA once and it was BTS. I've been looking at the save and I don't see how to direct JC's research or tell his troops to go somewhere or to attack a city. Are these actions possible, and if so how to do? As for research, in Team games it generally is best for all teamed civs to be researching the same tech - do you agree? Now... we don't want to let JC decide our tech path, so how do we get him to follow ours?

As for attacking Madrid, I assume we no waste time on bombarding cultural defenses, lead attack with cannons, reduce city to one weakened defender and hope JC takes it like he should.

What techs are our next priority after Med? Are we looking to trade for any techs and which ones?
 
Are you serious:confused: I thought Classical was up and melior if Classical is skipped.

I'm going to need to plan in much more detail if I'm up, and need help from you all.

Some questions about game mechanics: I have only played with a OCC/PA once and it was BTS. I've been looking at the save and I don't see how to direct JC's research or tell his troops to go somewhere or to attack a city. Are these actions possible, and if so how to do? As for research, in Team games it generally is best for all teamed civs to be researching the same tech - do you agree? Now... we don't want to let JC decide our tech path, so how do we get him to follow ours?

As for attacking Madrid, I assume we no waste time on bombarding cultural defenses, lead attack with cannons, reduce city to one weakened defender and hope JC takes it like he should.

What techs are our next priority after Med? Are we looking to trade for any techs and which ones?

Well, Classical and Melior are not checking in and you are around. :D

@Game mechanics: "Let's discuss sth else", try it. We have to be at war to tell him what city to attack, sadly there are no sneak attack options. There is an option "We would like you to research..." for the techs.

@Madrid. Bombardment is very effective in Vanilla, fast and efficient.

I've made a lot of assessments, I'll post it now. We need to discuss, it's not easy to find the right plan.
 
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