SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
marconos
Prince
BTS is so nice. I really prefer it to Vanilla. Whenever I go back to vanilla it feels like I'm missing so much 
And related to our strat discusions
DOWN WITH IZZY DOWN WITH IZZY!!!!!!
Fred ... I hope we are gunning for you
And related to our strat discusions
DOWN WITH IZZY DOWN WITH IZZY!!!!!!
Fred ... I hope we are gunning for you
Yamps
Deity
Well, what were you waiting for?!
Hope to see you in play soon!BTS is so nice. I really prefer it to Vanilla. Whenever I go back to vanilla it feels like I'm missing so much
And related to our strat discusions
DOWN WITH IZZY DOWN WITH IZZY!!!!!!
Fred ... I hope we are gunning for you
Izzy is killed.
I'll make a report soon and upload the save. I'm evaluating what to do next, it is a difficult decision. I'll need help from you guys, lot of analyzing to do.marconos
Prince
How many troops did you loose? How long for Ceasar to get troops there? What kind of troops did he send? How many turns of combat did we have? What condition are our troops in?
huh, huh, huh details man .. don't leave me hanging like this
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
All Kidding aside: Awesome news.
huh, huh, huh details man .. don't leave me hanging like this
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
All Kidding aside: Awesome news.
Yamps
Deity
First war log!
T203
Took cash from JC, 27 gpt. However, that reduced his research from 90% to 80%. I didn't like that so I canceled the Fur for 2 gpt deal and gave him Fur for free. That brought back the 90% research for him. Btw, you can see the percentage when you look inside his cities.
Tried to get Democracy for free from Cyrus but he wouldn't give it. Well, I tried.
Checking out rival garrisons, India is poorly defended. Ironically, taking out India would bring culture problems from Washington.
Well, India will have to wait for now.
Cathy has a lot of SAM soldiers and 4 Galleons, Artillery and WHEOOHRN. That's really disturbing. She hates us, she is pleased at her neighbors but she could attack anybody. We have to watch our back, Combustion and destroyers are becoming a priority.
Infantry in the queue to prevent overflow to Kremlin.
War declared, troops moved in!
I promoted one soldier to combat I + medic and second one to combat I, other promotions were delayed. Everything as planned so far.
Many diplomatic hits: Fred, Washington, Asoka, Liz, Cyrus, Alex.
T204
I've just lost a caravel.
It was scouting Japan and I've send it towards Cathy. The route was to close to Spain, Izzy's second caravel succeeded in sinking it. Stupid unit movement, sorry about that. Well, nobody's perfect. 
JC moved in a lot of soldiers and attacked Madrid before I even had a chance to fire! 15 infantry soldiers and some cannons entered Izzy's lands. JC also put 2 infantry soldiers and a cannon to a galleon and set sail to Spain. His frigates moved in too, sinking Izzy's caravels. That guy really likes to kick ass!
Madrid was down to 4LB, mace, cat and a spear. I bombarded the city down to 0%. I had 4 cannons for the attack and decided to move in. I made a gamble, attacking with a CR II cannon with 73.6% odds. I could have used a 98% infantry, but wanted to reduce the healing time. I was also gambling to get a level 3 unit. More experience is gained from difficult fights, according to the Combat explained article. Anyway, the cannon won the fight! Experience 9/10, that cannon needs one more win for the Heroic Epic! I had another CR II cannon for the next attack, win with 93.4 %. There were no more CR II cannons, infantry moped up, leaving only a catapult in the city. There were no loses and the healing times were 1-2 turns!
I put a caravel in the queue, didn't change anything else.
War had caused JC to drop research to 80% again, he had 25 gpt again. I tried giving him some gold to get his research up. 1 gpt, nothing. Again, 1 gpt for JC, still nothing. I decided to stop there, war will be over on the next turn anyway!
JC also stopped building the Pentagon, that's bad. We could use the +2 experience in every city ourselves.
T205
Madrid taken, Izzy out!
JC converted to Buddhism! He also build the Mahabodhi himself! He had a prophet standing by. We didn't remember that this could happen. Now, did that happen because we had a holy city or because Buddhism is dominant religion for JC? We could send a Jewish missionary to Madrid, but we can't ask him to convert. We don't have the option to convert Cyrus or Louis anymore! That would be useless now, they would still mind JC's different religion. Maybe we should consider Free religion a bit later?
JC didn't have any extra gold to give after the war! He used everything to sustain a +100% research rate. He did have 250 gold in treasury and I rightfully asked him to hand that over. However, that's nothing. We need 1700
to upgrade the cannons, according to the reference sheets. 170 for every cannon.
Cyrus was willing to sign a DP again and I signed it of course! Eat your heart out, Cathy!
However, it is not possible to bribe Kublai to attack Fred anymore! He will be able to sign a PA with Capac in about 15 turns! They don't have Communism yet, but that won't last long.
Of course, taking the holy city brought us some very good effects too. We have religion vision now, we see everything now! Izzy was very diligent, the Mahabodhi is bringing +19 !
Liz has SAM infantry now btw, still WHEOOHRN. Alex won't have a chance. She could also attack Toku, she is annoyed at him. Alex is the most probable target, but we have to be careful too.
You will also see that JC tends to leave his cities undefended, we could have huge problems with Cathy.
T206
Stack is healed, what to do? Artillery in 5 turns, btw.
There is a cannon waiting for a fight, one more win and we can build the HE. We could take out Toku in 2-3 turns, probably without casualties. However, Marconos is right, culture from Asoka and Hamburg would kill Kyoto off. JC could also overstretch himself.
If we attack Berlin now, we'll have many casualties. Look at the map, JC would attack to soon, crossing the river. He would lose many units, we can't allow that.
Attacking Alex now also doesn't seem optimal.
Yes your suspicions are correct, I do have a plan.
Let's wait for 5 turns and upgrade the cannons to artillery. I'll sell Biology for cash to everybody and get Democracy from Cyrus too. Actually, I'll consider getting Artillery from him when we research it a bit! This will provide a lot of money, I'll upgrade the cannons and attack Berlin!
In the meantime, reinforcements will be build in Beijing to stop the possible rifles from Hamburg. When Berlin falls, the stack from Berlin will be reinforced and Hamburg will be attacked too.
I'll try to bribe Kublai to that war to brake the pact with Capac, I won't sell Biology to him.
Question: Democracy from Cyrus or Artillery? JC will need Democracy soon. We are giving him whales and fur for free, we could sell that. Of course, if we get Artillery, we could attack sooner. Timing will depend on JC's movements too, he has to return soldiers to Antium first.
All in all, that was a nice war for us! No loses at all, except for that caravel.
T203
Took cash from JC, 27 gpt. However, that reduced his research from 90% to 80%. I didn't like that so I canceled the Fur for 2 gpt deal and gave him Fur for free. That brought back the 90% research for him. Btw, you can see the percentage when you look inside his cities.
Tried to get Democracy for free from Cyrus but he wouldn't give it. Well, I tried.
Checking out rival garrisons, India is poorly defended. Ironically, taking out India would bring culture problems from Washington.
Well, India will have to wait for now.Cathy has a lot of SAM soldiers and 4 Galleons, Artillery and WHEOOHRN. That's really disturbing. She hates us, she is pleased at her neighbors but she could attack anybody. We have to watch our back, Combustion and destroyers are becoming a priority.
Infantry in the queue to prevent overflow to Kremlin.
War declared, troops moved in!
I promoted one soldier to combat I + medic and second one to combat I, other promotions were delayed. Everything as planned so far.
Many diplomatic hits: Fred, Washington, Asoka, Liz, Cyrus, Alex.
T204
I've just lost a caravel.
It was scouting Japan and I've send it towards Cathy. The route was to close to Spain, Izzy's second caravel succeeded in sinking it. Stupid unit movement, sorry about that. Well, nobody's perfect. JC moved in a lot of soldiers and attacked Madrid before I even had a chance to fire! 15 infantry soldiers and some cannons entered Izzy's lands. JC also put 2 infantry soldiers and a cannon to a galleon and set sail to Spain. His frigates moved in too, sinking Izzy's caravels. That guy really likes to kick ass!
Madrid was down to 4LB, mace, cat and a spear. I bombarded the city down to 0%. I had 4 cannons for the attack and decided to move in. I made a gamble, attacking with a CR II cannon with 73.6% odds. I could have used a 98% infantry, but wanted to reduce the healing time. I was also gambling to get a level 3 unit. More experience is gained from difficult fights, according to the Combat explained article. Anyway, the cannon won the fight! Experience 9/10, that cannon needs one more win for the Heroic Epic! I had another CR II cannon for the next attack, win with 93.4 %. There were no more CR II cannons, infantry moped up, leaving only a catapult in the city. There were no loses and the healing times were 1-2 turns!
I put a caravel in the queue, didn't change anything else.
War had caused JC to drop research to 80% again, he had 25 gpt again. I tried giving him some gold to get his research up. 1 gpt, nothing. Again, 1 gpt for JC, still nothing. I decided to stop there, war will be over on the next turn anyway!
JC also stopped building the Pentagon, that's bad. We could use the +2 experience in every city ourselves.
T205
Madrid taken, Izzy out!
JC converted to Buddhism! He also build the Mahabodhi himself! He had a prophet standing by. We didn't remember that this could happen. Now, did that happen because we had a holy city or because Buddhism is dominant religion for JC? We could send a Jewish missionary to Madrid, but we can't ask him to convert. We don't have the option to convert Cyrus or Louis anymore! That would be useless now, they would still mind JC's different religion. Maybe we should consider Free religion a bit later?
JC didn't have any extra gold to give after the war! He used everything to sustain a +100% research rate. He did have 250 gold in treasury and I rightfully asked him to hand that over. However, that's nothing. We need 1700
to upgrade the cannons, according to the reference sheets. 170 for every cannon.Cyrus was willing to sign a DP again and I signed it of course! Eat your heart out, Cathy!
However, it is not possible to bribe Kublai to attack Fred anymore! He will be able to sign a PA with Capac in about 15 turns! They don't have Communism yet, but that won't last long.
Of course, taking the holy city brought us some very good effects too. We have religion vision now, we see everything now! Izzy was very diligent, the Mahabodhi is bringing +19
!Liz has SAM infantry now btw, still WHEOOHRN. Alex won't have a chance. She could also attack Toku, she is annoyed at him. Alex is the most probable target, but we have to be careful too.
You will also see that JC tends to leave his cities undefended, we could have huge problems with Cathy.
T206
Stack is healed, what to do? Artillery in 5 turns, btw.
There is a cannon waiting for a fight, one more win and we can build the HE. We could take out Toku in 2-3 turns, probably without casualties. However, Marconos is right, culture from Asoka and Hamburg would kill Kyoto off. JC could also overstretch himself.
If we attack Berlin now, we'll have many casualties. Look at the map, JC would attack to soon, crossing the river. He would lose many units, we can't allow that.
Attacking Alex now also doesn't seem optimal.
Yes your suspicions are correct, I do have a plan.
Let's wait for 5 turns and upgrade the cannons to artillery. I'll sell Biology for cash to everybody and get Democracy from Cyrus too. Actually, I'll consider getting Artillery from him when we research it a bit! This will provide a lot of money, I'll upgrade the cannons and attack Berlin!
In the meantime, reinforcements will be build in Beijing to stop the possible rifles from Hamburg. When Berlin falls, the stack from Berlin will be reinforced and Hamburg will be attacked too.
I'll try to bribe Kublai to that war to brake the pact with Capac, I won't sell Biology to him.
Question: Democracy from Cyrus or Artillery? JC will need Democracy soon. We are giving him whales and fur for free, we could sell that. Of course, if we get Artillery, we could attack sooner. Timing will depend on JC's movements too, he has to return soldiers to Antium first.
All in all, that was a nice war for us!
No loses at all, except for that caravel.
Yamps
Deity
Here is the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_AD1460_01.Civ4SavedGame
Logs:
I'll upload some pictures shortly.
Attack tactics update:
We are forced to bombard from the tile across the river to reduce defense in Berlin to 0%. We have to move in fast to reduce JC's casualties. Of course, moving the stack before the final attack is probably the best thing to do. I hope that JC will gain some tiles from Fred before the attack, that tile is not optimal.
I can play again tomorrow, everything is open for discussion!
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Unusual_Suspects_SG007_AD1460_01.Civ4SavedGame
Logs:
Spoiler :
I'll upload some pictures shortly.
Attack tactics update:
We are forced to bombard from the tile across the river to reduce defense in Berlin to 0%. We have to move in fast to reduce JC's casualties. Of course, moving the stack before the final attack is probably the best thing to do. I hope that JC will gain some tiles from Fred before the attack, that tile is not optimal.
I can play again tomorrow, everything is open for discussion!
Yamps
Deity
Pictures! Vra, these are specially picked just for you.
JC's land:
Our land:
Our city:
I think we should move a scientist to the coast to increase population. Yeah, scientists need a vacation too!
Now seriously, we should grow to size 20. Power plant + Ironworks will bring +4
. Hospital can give +3 
. We have 23 now and 20 . All that means 26 and 26 at size 20.
Our continent:
Other continents:
JC's land:
Spoiler :
Our land:
Spoiler :
Our city:
Spoiler :
I think we should move a scientist to the coast to increase population.
Yeah, scientists need a vacation too!Now seriously, we should grow to size 20. Power plant + Ironworks will bring +4
. Hospital can give +3 . We have 23 now and 20 . All that means 26 and 26 at size 20.Our continent:
Spoiler :
Other continents:
Spoiler :
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
So I can go along with everything else, but selling off Biology for the chump change the AI's have??? That's way too generous a deal. We don't need Artillery to kill off another AI right now. Cannons will get the job done. Just use the Cannons when needed. They're expendable. Something else to consider about upgrades: can you upgrade units while in Caesar's land or do you have to march the Cannons all the way back to our land to upgrade?
I think we should capture Kyoto with the troops we have now and pick up some experience. By the time Toku is knocked out, we'll have more troops to play with and then we can reassess who to take out next. At this point, I'd say Alex after Toku because Liz is very powerful and will grab Alex's land if we don't do it first. Getting Caesar to march troops to the Greek cities before Liz declares war, that could get tricky. We might have to bribe Liz to make peace if Caesar doesn't show up in time to avoid having Athens fall into Liz's hands.
Yamps
Deity
@Melior
Well, I've slept on it and I don't like selling Biology too. We can't just go and sell techs off, we need to consider relations too. Btw, JC has bad relations now because of Buddhism, that will be a problem. Declaring wars won't help either. Of course, that would also be too generous like you said.
Situation is very delicate. Cathy could be going after us, she is stockpiling artillery and SAM infantry. Liz has a nasty stack of artillery in York too. They both have WHEOOHRN. Our city garrison is weak atm, 5 soldiers in the city, only 2 of those infantry. Btw, that rifle on a hill won't stop anything. I think it is best now to move him back in the city. We need a stronger stack back home for defense, Liz could declare on us. That's not very probable, but possible.
Like I said, taking out Toku now is possible. However, culture from Hamburg and India would crush Kyoto. Also, JC could easily overstretch. Attacking Alex would be problematic too, JC is far away and culture from other cities would destroy the cities if we take them.
I think we should attack Fred. That would open a path towards Alex, bring Coal and good lands. However, in that case cannons are not expendable. Berlin and Hamburg have a lot of soldiers and some troops have to stay back home for defense. We could trade with Caty and Cyrus for Artillery, Democracy and 500. Asoka and Kublai have Communism, I think we should sell that now. Communism enables PA, but Kublai already has that so there is no point in delaying that trade anymore. Cathy and Sal won't sign PA, they are not Friendly towards each other. However, it's not possible to stop Kublai and Capac from signing PA! We can't bribe Kublai because he is only cautious towards JC, JC messed the relations with Buddhism! We also can't bribe anybody to attack them, JC doesn't care much about his relations.
Anyway, 500 from the trades, more milking from JC if possible and the cash we already have will be enough to upgrade ~6 cannons I believe for the attack on Fred. Yes, cannons can be upgraded in JC's land. If we take Fred quickly, we'll be in a good position to attack Alex, hopefully before Liz moves in for the kill.
EDIT: I think we should ask Monty, Mansa, Alex and Toku for tribute. They hate us anyway and they are weak, we should try to extort some gold from them.
Melior, when will you have the time for play?
I could play now, but I would like to hear more opinions. I can postpone play for tomorrow if necessary.
Well, I've slept on it and I don't like selling Biology too. We can't just go and sell techs off, we need to consider relations too. Btw, JC has bad relations now because of Buddhism, that will be a problem. Declaring wars won't help either. Of course, that would also be too generous like you said.
Situation is very delicate. Cathy could be going after us, she is stockpiling artillery and SAM infantry. Liz has a nasty stack of artillery in York too. They both have WHEOOHRN. Our city garrison is weak atm, 5 soldiers in the city, only 2 of those infantry. Btw, that rifle on a hill won't stop anything. I think it is best now to move him back in the city. We need a stronger stack back home for defense, Liz could declare on us. That's not very probable, but possible.
Like I said, taking out Toku now is possible. However, culture from Hamburg and India would crush Kyoto. Also, JC could easily overstretch. Attacking Alex would be problematic too, JC is far away and culture from other cities would destroy the cities if we take them.
I think we should attack Fred. That would open a path towards Alex, bring Coal and good lands. However, in that case cannons are not expendable. Berlin and Hamburg have a lot of soldiers and some troops have to stay back home for defense. We could trade with Caty and Cyrus for Artillery, Democracy and 500
. Asoka and Kublai have Communism, I think we should sell that now. Communism enables PA, but Kublai already has that so there is no point in delaying that trade anymore. Cathy and Sal won't sign PA, they are not Friendly towards each other. However, it's not possible to stop Kublai and Capac from signing PA! We can't bribe Kublai because he is only cautious towards JC, JC messed the relations with Buddhism! We also can't bribe anybody to attack them, JC doesn't care much about his relations.Anyway, 500
from the trades, more milking from JC if possible and the cash we already have will be enough to upgrade ~6 cannons I believe for the attack on Fred. Yes, cannons can be upgraded in JC's land. If we take Fred quickly, we'll be in a good position to attack Alex, hopefully before Liz moves in for the kill.EDIT: I think we should ask Monty, Mansa, Alex and Toku for tribute. They hate us anyway and they are weak, we should try to extort some gold from them.
Melior, when will you have the time for play?
I could play now, but I would like to hear more opinions. I can postpone play for tomorrow if necessary.
I have groundbreaking news.
THE SAVE LOADED!
...and now I have no clue what and where we are at, so will poke around the game and sit back and watch for a bit.
====
Okay. I'm forced to conclude looking at the game that attacking Fred is NOT a good idea.
The best target here is KK, by FAR. A solid city JC can quickly bring online, it will prove useful. Also, the silver mine should be replaced with a fort, and a serious defence set up there, as its likely a better standing point than getting our capital blasted.
THE SAVE LOADED!
...and now I have no clue what and where we are at, so will poke around the game and sit back and watch for a bit.
====
Okay. I'm forced to conclude looking at the game that attacking Fred is NOT a good idea.
The best target here is KK, by FAR. A solid city JC can quickly bring online, it will prove useful. Also, the silver mine should be replaced with a fort, and a serious defence set up there, as its likely a better standing point than getting our capital blasted.
Yamps
Deity
@Vra
Good to have you back!
@Attack
Don't you think that attacking Kublai would be terribly messy? He does have a DP with Capac.
Why shouldn't we attack Fred? We have infantry and we'll have artillery too for the attack, those cannons will be upgraded. JC will bring a lot of soldiers for the attack too.
@Fort
Liz could also attack from the sea, we don't have many soldiers there now to move them out.
I've been postponing play, but there hasn't been much input. I'll start playing soon, do you have more ideas?
Good to have you back!
@Attack
Don't you think that attacking Kublai would be terribly messy? He does have a DP with Capac.
Why shouldn't we attack Fred? We have infantry and we'll have artillery too for the attack, those cannons will be upgraded. JC will bring a lot of soldiers for the attack too.
@Fort
Liz could also attack from the sea, we don't have many soldiers there now to move them out.
I've been postponing play, but there hasn't been much input. I'll start playing soon, do you have more ideas?
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
I can probably squeeze in some turns this weekend.
I'm taking a longer look at the current situation and some things come to mind:
Liz is very powerful. She's got quite the stack of Artillery and SAM Infantry. She would completely steamroll Alex. If we commit the army to conquering Berlin & Hamburg, we would be forced to bribe Liz into making peace with Alex if she declares war before we do on Alex. If she won't take a bribe, we will lose Alex's cities to her.
If we do decide to declare war on Fred, what would be the plan? An attack on Berlin from the south? It looks like we'll need more troops for the job. By the time those troops become available, we would have had time to capture Kyoto with time to spare. It's true the city won't be of much use until we take out Fred (and Asoka), but I doubt it'll be in danger of getting culture flipped either.
Speaking of Asoka, would he be an easier mark than Fred? He's a bigger tech threat & has better land than Fred. Are there any potential drawbacks to taking Asoka out before Fred?
Shouldn't the city build the Coal Plant sooner rather than later? We're below the
cap and the Coal Plant completes in 1 turn instead of 7 for IW (which only nets the 50% Iron bonus ATM).The 2 Infantry fortified in the city can be sent south. They're not doing anything useful right now. I'd be shocked if Liz attacked us. I'm pretty sure she won't even think of attacking at Pleased.
The Cathy-Saladin DP is a stinking pile of horsecrap. The two of them have a grand total of +1 diplomacy & they sign a DP???
Saladin knows Assembly Line. Need to keep a close eye on who else gets AL & think about backfilling some techs when it becomes likely the AI's will start trading it around.
Well, I need to get back to working on what I should have been working on the past half hour.
Good luck with the next round.
Yamps
Deity
Melior
Thank you for more input!
@Liz
Alex is going for Rifling, he didn't know RP a few turns before, now he knows it. Rifles would slow Liz a bit.
@Fred
Our troops are small, but artillery should do the job. JC send more than 15 infantry soldiers in the war against Izzy, I'm relying on some help here too.
@I've considered the Kyoto - India attack too. Drawbacks: culture from Washington and lack of coal, Fred has it, Asoka doesn't. That coal is needed badly for production.
@Liz attacking at Pleased.
I've just read an interesting deity walkthrough in the Strategy tips section. The player had Friendly relations with Peter for the entire game, that dropped to Pleased and Peter declared war later on! However, he was ready for the attack, Peter got his ass kicked. The guy won the game, Space victory. That was a standard deity game, very impressive.
Therefore, I'm not willing to risk the attack from Liz.
@Coal plant doesn't work without Coal, that's why we are not building it yet.
@Sal - Cathy pact
That was anticipated, they can both sign DP at Pleased. However, they also need Friendly, PA won't be possible between them. He, he!
@Sal and Assembly line
Yes, I've noticed that. I'm also worried that Sal will build the Pentagon. JC was building it but decided to take a break and build soldiers instead!
I'll use an old test game and WB to model the attack on Fred. If the results won't be good, I'll re-evaluate the strike.
Thank you for more input!
@Liz
Alex is going for Rifling, he didn't know RP a few turns before, now he knows it. Rifles would slow Liz a bit.
@Fred
Our troops are small, but artillery should do the job. JC send more than 15 infantry soldiers in the war against Izzy, I'm relying on some help here too.
@I've considered the Kyoto - India attack too. Drawbacks: culture from Washington and lack of coal, Fred has it, Asoka doesn't. That coal is needed badly for production.
@Liz attacking at Pleased.
I've just read an interesting deity walkthrough in the Strategy tips section. The player had Friendly relations with Peter for the entire game, that dropped to Pleased and Peter declared war later on! However, he was ready for the attack, Peter got his ass kicked. The guy won the game, Space victory. That was a standard deity game, very impressive.
Therefore, I'm not willing to risk the attack from Liz.
@Coal plant doesn't work without Coal, that's why we are not building it yet.
@Sal - Cathy pact
That was anticipated, they can both sign DP at Pleased. However, they also need Friendly, PA won't be possible between them. He, he!
@Sal and Assembly line
Yes, I've noticed that. I'm also worried that Sal will build the Pentagon. JC was building it but decided to take a break and build soldiers instead!
I'll use an old test game and WB to model the attack on Fred. If the results won't be good, I'll re-evaluate the strike.
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
Weird how I realized IW wouldn't get the Coal bonus but forgot the power plant also wouldn't.
Anyway, I can go along with attacking Fred first, once we have a few more Infantry available for the attack.
marconos
Prince
I'll get the save tonight and take a closer look and give you my thoughts ... for what they are worth anyways
Yamps
Deity
Ok, I've played a bit and things are really getting complicated out there. I don't want you to miss all the fun, you'll see.
Game plan:
More tests showed that conquering Fred would be difficult but possible! Some help from JC would be needed. I had two plans:
Plan A
Attacking Fred with artillery and infantry.
Plan B
Attacking Alex instead if the situation demanded.
I decided to skip Toku, JC would need 5 turns to take Kyoto. JC was already overstretched, Antium almost completely empty. JC was keeping to many soldiers in Madrid to prevent an impossible revolt, I guess. Another reason was Liz, she was ready to attack. I estimated that going for Toku would delay the intervention on the Greek front.
T206
I decided to try a "Do you have a buck to spare for an old friend?" approach. I couldn't believe it, Capac, Kublai and Fred gave me a total of 440 ! 
I moved the rifleman into the city and a scientist to the coast like I said I would. The stack was moved towards Fred.
T207
I used "Show friendly moves" option to note the playing order of civs. We play first and then Fred, Monty, Wash, JC, Asoka, Liz, Cyrus, Kublai, Sal, Alex, Toku, Cathy and Capac in that order. This is important to know for future wars.
Mansa killed by French!
That put Cathy, Louis and Toku out of WHEOOHRN.
Cathy signed DP with Capac! Braking the Kublai - Capac pact didn't make any sense anymore, that would enable the Cathy - Capac PA in 40 turns. That PA is possible, they are friendly to each other.
Liz still had WHEOOHRN. I should point out that her cautious attitude towards JC gives a cautious attitude towards the team, not pleased. There were many examples of such behavior before. Washington didn't want to sign a DP with us although he was friendly, he was only pleased with JC. Another example: Louis is cautious at us but he doesn't want to sign OB anymore because he is annoyed at JC. Integer devision...
However, she was pleased at JC too when the WHEOOHRN happened, that's good for us.
Fred - Washington DP was possible too, another thing to prevent.
T208
JC still had only 2 infantry soldiers in Antium! Fred had 7 additional rifles near, and we still didn't have artillery. Also, JC decided to build a Caravel, no need to hurry the Pentagon waiting in the queue. Never mind Saladin, JC. More bad news: Cathy and Cyrus researched Communism and Liz discovered Biology too! 
That was just too much for one turn, save, exit, brake. 
Brake didn't last long, of course. I decided to go for plan B. Trade problems, lack of cash, empty Antium... Not the right situation for the attack on Fred.
I also encountered a known HoF bug: scores are set to zero on fresh reload! I've read about it, this bug sometimes enables trades that are otherwise not possible. In this situation, Cathy was willing to trade again! Trades with Cathy are possible on fresh reloads for one turn only. That's a possible exploit to use, but that would go against our Unusually Suspicious Ways (tm), right?
Uranium was connected, I decided to sell it for cash. I wasn't willing to sell that to Liz, that could fuel destroyers! I decided to sell that to Louis and get the stone back. I planned selling stone to Liz. However, canceling the stone deal made Louis spend his gpt on research! Well, I sold the stone to Liz then.
T209 - current turn! The fun begins...
Cathy won't trade anymore. But if I save and reload she will do it!
Well, the plan is to sell Communism + 110 to Liz for partially researched Artillery anyway and keep Biology.
Artillery, cash in the treasury for about ~5 arties for the attack on Alex. Alex still doesn't have Rifling, but he could get that very soon. He does have a lot of units in his cities and JC is far, soldiers are still in Madrid.
Ok, everything set to go... Oh, but wait! What do I see? English troop movement! Where is that stack going? To Japan!!!
Evaluation:
Liz will reach Kyoto before us!
More....
Well, closer look revealed that the race is very close. Of course, the first question to ask is should we go after Japan at all? We do have other options. Ok, here is the analysis:
Plan A: The fight for Kyoto
Liz can attack Kyoto in 3 turns with optimal unit movement. Our stack can attack in 4 turns. No time for upgrading cannons! JC can attack the city in 5 turns, or in 4 turns if he moves troops through Germany and if we declare war now.
Liz is faster, but Toku has 15 units in the city and Liz is bringing 14. We could raze the city in front of her eyes! Another important thing, JC moves before Liz so if he uses the optimal path, he'll take the city!
However, there is another but to consider. Liz has a strange exploring stack that has been moving around the country. 2 LB and one Artillery. The stack could reach Kyoto in 3 turns with optimal movement, taking the city!
Reinforcements from Beijing could attack Kyoto in 5 turns, that's too late.
See for yourself, I'll attach the save in the team thread. I've only played for a few turns, I won't upload an official save right now. I don't want other teams to guess that we are fighting a war.
In this case, perhaps selling Communism for Artillery isn't optimal. Maybe Liz accepts Communism for peace? I don't think so, she has an overwhelming advantage against Toku.
Plan B Taking out Alex
Should we fight for Kyoto at all? Consider it, this development could be good for us. If we take or raze Kyoto, Liz will still have a nasty stack ready for action. If she takes the city, she'll get stretched. Culture from other cities will kill Kyoto anyway, she won't have much use from that city. I've just checked the personality file, she will never raze a city! Btw, neither will JC.
We could attack Alex while Liz is busy before he gets guns. He also has coal, but we can't expect to take it, we are going to have big culture problems.
In this case, selling Communism for Artillery is a good idea, maybe we'll need them against Alex.
Plan C preparing for the attack on Fred
We don't have enough cash to upgrade all cannons, we can't attack right away. Hopefully JC will move troops from Madrid to Antium in 2 turns, rebellion in Madrid will stop then. More reinforcements are needed for the attack, however.
Selling Communism and asking civs for tribute is the right thing to do in this case.
So, what do you think? Maybe I should've attacked Toku right away? Liz was annoyed at Toku and Alex and on some other people too. In that case, we would had small chances to intervene on the Greek front. I still think that skipping Toku was the correct decision.
I think we should go with plan B, although I haves some impulses to go for plan A!
I can play again tomorrow.
Game plan:
More tests showed that conquering Fred would be difficult but possible! Some help from JC would be needed. I had two plans:
Plan A
Attacking Fred with artillery and infantry.
Plan B
Attacking Alex instead if the situation demanded.
I decided to skip Toku, JC would need 5 turns to take Kyoto. JC was already overstretched, Antium almost completely empty. JC was keeping to many soldiers in Madrid to prevent an impossible revolt, I guess.
Another reason was Liz, she was ready to attack. I estimated that going for Toku would delay the intervention on the Greek front.T206
I decided to try a "Do you have a buck to spare for an old friend?" approach. I couldn't believe it, Capac, Kublai and Fred gave me a total of 440
! I moved the rifleman into the city and a scientist to the coast like I said I would. The stack was moved towards Fred.
T207
I used "Show friendly moves" option to note the playing order of civs. We play first and then Fred, Monty, Wash, JC, Asoka, Liz, Cyrus, Kublai, Sal, Alex, Toku, Cathy and Capac in that order. This is important to know for future wars.
Mansa killed by French!
That put Cathy, Louis and Toku out of WHEOOHRN.
Cathy signed DP with Capac! Braking the Kublai - Capac pact didn't make any sense anymore, that would enable the Cathy - Capac PA in 40 turns. That PA is possible, they are friendly to each other.
Liz still had WHEOOHRN. I should point out that her cautious attitude towards JC gives a cautious attitude towards the team, not pleased. There were many examples of such behavior before. Washington didn't want to sign a DP with us although he was friendly, he was only pleased with JC. Another example: Louis is cautious at us but he doesn't want to sign OB anymore because he is annoyed at JC. Integer devision...
However, she was pleased at JC too when the WHEOOHRN happened, that's good for us.
Fred - Washington DP was possible too, another thing to prevent.
T208
JC still had only 2 infantry soldiers in Antium! Fred had 7 additional rifles near, and we still didn't have artillery. Also, JC decided to build a Caravel, no need to hurry the Pentagon waiting in the queue. Never mind Saladin, JC.
More bad news: Cathy and Cyrus researched Communism and Liz discovered Biology too! That was just too much for one turn, save, exit, brake. Brake didn't last long, of course.
I decided to go for plan B. Trade problems, lack of cash, empty Antium... Not the right situation for the attack on Fred.I also encountered a known HoF bug: scores are set to zero on fresh reload! I've read about it, this bug sometimes enables trades that are otherwise not possible. In this situation, Cathy was willing to trade again! Trades with Cathy are possible on fresh reloads for one turn only. That's a possible exploit to use, but that would go against our Unusually Suspicious Ways (tm), right?
Uranium was connected, I decided to sell it for cash. I wasn't willing to sell that to Liz, that could fuel destroyers! I decided to sell that to Louis and get the stone back. I planned selling stone to Liz. However, canceling the stone deal made Louis spend his gpt on research! Well, I sold the stone to Liz then.
T209 - current turn! The fun begins...
Cathy won't trade anymore. But if I save and reload she will do it!
Well, the plan is to sell Communism + 110
to Liz for partially researched Artillery anyway and keep Biology.Artillery, cash in the treasury for about ~5 arties for the attack on Alex. Alex still doesn't have Rifling, but he could get that very soon. He does have a lot of units in his cities and JC is far, soldiers are still in Madrid.
Ok, everything set to go... Oh, but wait! What do I see? English troop movement! Where is that stack going? To Japan!!!
Evaluation:
Liz will reach Kyoto before us!
More
....Well, closer look revealed that the race is very close. Of course, the first question to ask is should we go after Japan at all? We do have other options. Ok, here is the analysis:
Plan A: The fight for Kyoto
Liz can attack Kyoto in 3 turns with optimal unit movement. Our stack can attack in 4 turns. No time for upgrading cannons! JC can attack the city in 5 turns, or in 4 turns if he moves troops through Germany and if we declare war now.
Liz is faster, but Toku has 15 units in the city and Liz is bringing 14. We could raze the city in front of her eyes! Another important thing, JC moves before Liz so if he uses the optimal path, he'll take the city!
However, there is another but to consider. Liz has a strange exploring stack that has been moving around the country. 2 LB and one Artillery. The stack could reach Kyoto in 3 turns with optimal movement, taking the city!
Reinforcements from Beijing could attack Kyoto in 5 turns, that's too late.
See for yourself, I'll attach the save in the team thread. I've only played for a few turns, I won't upload an official save right now. I don't want other teams to guess that we are fighting a war.
In this case, perhaps selling Communism for Artillery isn't optimal. Maybe Liz accepts Communism for peace? I don't think so, she has an overwhelming advantage against Toku.
Plan B Taking out Alex
Should we fight for Kyoto at all? Consider it, this development could be good for us. If we take or raze Kyoto, Liz will still have a nasty stack ready for action. If she takes the city, she'll get stretched. Culture from other cities will kill Kyoto anyway, she won't have much use from that city. I've just checked the personality file, she will never raze a city! Btw, neither will JC.
We could attack Alex while Liz is busy before he gets guns. He also has coal, but we can't expect to take it, we are going to have big culture problems.
In this case, selling Communism for Artillery is a good idea, maybe we'll need them against Alex.
Plan C preparing for the attack on Fred
We don't have enough cash to upgrade all cannons, we can't attack right away. Hopefully JC will move troops from Madrid to Antium in 2 turns, rebellion in Madrid will stop then. More reinforcements are needed for the attack, however.
Selling Communism and asking civs for tribute is the right thing to do in this case.
So, what do you think? Maybe I should've attacked Toku right away? Liz was annoyed at Toku and Alex and on some other people too. In that case, we would had small chances to intervene on the Greek front. I still think that skipping Toku was the correct decision.
I think we should go with plan B, although I haves some impulses to go for plan A!
I can play again tomorrow.
marconos
Prince
Well after careful review here is my opinion on things.
1. Let her take Japan -- it's worthless anyway.
2. Fred must die. 1 turn to get troops on the southern side of Berlin. Wait 1 turn for the added city to come out of revolt. Next turn declare war and get to Berlin 1 turn after that. Massive damage to it on the next turn. Come up from the S through the forest. If his units step out of his city and head towards Antium kill them out in the open.
3. Kill off Fred after Berlin falls.
At this point we will be having culture pressure from Huyan Capac on both of the German cities. Here is where it gets tricky. We want to get Cathy out of the DP with Huyan Capac but we need his cities to get the culture pressure off of Ceasar. Here is my plan to accomplish both. After Fred is dead we make sure that Ceasar has adequate troops in both of the captured cities. We then declare war on Kublai. I have looked at his unit and I'm not impressed. What this does is Capac will declare war on us (good!!!!) and breaks the DP with Cathy. At this point we then wipe out Capac. If we have to raze his cities. That is fine but we take him out. We then proceed south and knock out Kublai.
I would like to point out that Alex is not in my plans at all. Reason for this is that Alex is not a real threat. We have to stop the Kublai / Capc / Cathy party that is growing on our continent. By doing this we take out two adversaries and totally remove the Cathy threat from our lands.
Once Capac and Kublai are dead we can then focus on the others.
Different approach but I believe this will work. Risky, but at this point to get a laurel ... we need to and I believe this will do it.
1. Let her take Japan -- it's worthless anyway.
2. Fred must die. 1 turn to get troops on the southern side of Berlin. Wait 1 turn for the added city to come out of revolt. Next turn declare war and get to Berlin 1 turn after that. Massive damage to it on the next turn. Come up from the S through the forest. If his units step out of his city and head towards Antium kill them out in the open.
3. Kill off Fred after Berlin falls.
At this point we will be having culture pressure from Huyan Capac on both of the German cities. Here is where it gets tricky. We want to get Cathy out of the DP with Huyan Capac but we need his cities to get the culture pressure off of Ceasar. Here is my plan to accomplish both. After Fred is dead we make sure that Ceasar has adequate troops in both of the captured cities. We then declare war on Kublai. I have looked at his unit and I'm not impressed. What this does is Capac will declare war on us (good!!!!) and breaks the DP with Cathy. At this point we then wipe out Capac. If we have to raze his cities. That is fine but we take him out. We then proceed south and knock out Kublai.
I would like to point out that Alex is not in my plans at all. Reason for this is that Alex is not a real threat. We have to stop the Kublai / Capc / Cathy party that is growing on our continent. By doing this we take out two adversaries and totally remove the Cathy threat from our lands.
Once Capac and Kublai are dead we can then focus on the others.
Different approach but I believe this will work. Risky, but at this point to get a laurel ... we need to and I believe this will do it.
Yamps
Deity
Plan update:
I think plan B is the best option here. I've just had an idea:
Liz culture-bombed 3 times! JC also has a GA available, he should be as smart as Liz to bomb too! Hopefully, he'll use the bomb in Sparta or Athens to secure the Coal. Hiring artists at this point could be usefull. Sadly, we can't culture bomb in JC's cities, we can only settle the GA. We would have to give a GA to JC and with some luck he'll culture bomb.
Heroic Epic is almost unlocked, one more win with the right cannon is needed. There are 2 cannons actually almost at level 3. Attacking Sparta should bring HE and coal, making other wars easier.
It is good to overstretch Liz, she is becoming very dangerous. Waiting for the attack on Fred doesn't feel right, we have to keep moving. Fred after Alex, when we get more soldiers. Artillery will be very strong against Fred.
I think plan B is the best option here. I've just had an idea:
Liz culture-bombed 3 times! JC also has a GA available, he should be as smart as Liz to bomb too! Hopefully, he'll use the bomb in Sparta or Athens to secure the Coal. Hiring artists at this point could be usefull. Sadly, we can't culture bomb in JC's cities, we can only settle the GA. We would have to give a GA to JC and with some luck he'll culture bomb.
Heroic Epic is almost unlocked, one more win with the right cannon is needed. There are 2 cannons actually almost at level 3. Attacking Sparta should bring HE and coal, making other wars easier.
It is good to overstretch Liz, she is becoming very dangerous. Waiting for the attack on Fred doesn't feel right, we have to keep moving. Fred after Alex, when we get more soldiers. Artillery will be very strong against Fred.
Yamps
Deity
@Marconos
Interesting plans!
I've carefully evaluated your proposal, let's get back to that plan C a bit!
Congratulations Marconos, you actually gave us another plan:
plan D
Attack on Kublai now - aka bloody mess!
To explain myself a bit: PA between Kublai and Capac will happen in about 10 turns. That will also mean Cathy - Kublai - Capac DP! If we want to stop them we have to act fast, we can't get Fred so fast, or can we ?!
Anyway, maybe we should let them be? We have many other targets: Fred, Alex, Asoka, Washington, Liz and Toku.
We are probably going for Space anyway. Well, this plan would require some serious evaluation.
Back to plan C, the attack on Fred.
Okay, let's try to see what will happen:
T209 (now)
Trading for Artillery, Communism + 110 to get it. That leaves 776 . Science to 0% for one turn for 147 at least, more with MM. Asking for tribute could yield additional 390 .
Moving the units south as suggested.
EDIT: Actually, we could upgrade at this point, there will be enough movement points! However, cash is the problem.
T210
Madrid will get out of revolt on the next turn. Upgrading cannons, there will be enough for 5 - 7 upgrades out of 10.
T211
Declare war on Fred! Units move to the forest. Fred moves after that, attacking our units or moving them near Antium. 4 rifles from the hill tile could move towards Antium and they would be out of our reach. More could come from Berlin. JC will have 2 cannons in the city at that point and he has some infantry on nearby hills. He only has 2 soldiers in the city however! He will pick on those rifles and move troops from Rome and Madrid. He should have arties too at that point, he has some cannons now. Antium is seriously low on defense, but JC should hold his ground. However, Fred has iRazeCityProb = 50, I probably don't have to explain what that means! Maybe we should leave a soldier in the city just in case? Attack tactics most likely needs to be re-evaluated.
T212
Our units reach Berlin. Fred attacks the stack with cannons, or attacks Antium with his remaining units! Hopefully he doesn't capture or raze Antium and JC mops things up with infantry. JC reaches Berlin too, planning to attack Berlin crossing the river.
T213
Bombarding with cannons, reducing defense to 0%, attacking with artillery and infantry. JC takes the city with overwhelming stacks.
We can see Freds movements, if he decides to send rifles on Beijing our soldiers can tackle them. Btw, we have 4 infantry soldiers, 3 rifles and a gren back home currently. We are building only soldiers atm, attack on Berlin will also unlock HE. It will be possible to take Hamburg fast, our stack from Berlin will be reinforced from the north.
Okay, the plan has great potential but needs some refinements. Antium needs more defenders, we can't risk losing a city!
Interesting plans!
I've carefully evaluated your proposal, let's get back to that plan C a bit!
Congratulations Marconos, you actually gave us another plan:
plan D
Attack on Kublai now - aka bloody mess!
To explain myself a bit: PA between Kublai and Capac will happen in about 10 turns. That will also mean Cathy - Kublai - Capac DP! If we want to stop them we have to act fast, we can't get Fred so fast, or can we ?!
Anyway, maybe we should let them be? We have many other targets: Fred, Alex, Asoka, Washington, Liz and Toku.
We are probably going for Space anyway. Well, this plan would require some serious evaluation.
Back to plan C, the attack on Fred.
Okay, let's try to see what will happen:
T209 (now)
Trading for Artillery, Communism + 110
to get it. That leaves 776 . Science to 0% for one turn for 147 at least, more with MM. Asking for tribute could yield additional 390 . Moving the units south as suggested.
EDIT: Actually, we could upgrade at this point, there will be enough movement points! However, cash is the problem.
T210
Madrid will get out of revolt on the next turn. Upgrading cannons, there will be enough for 5 - 7 upgrades out of 10.
T211
Declare war on Fred! Units move to the forest. Fred moves after that, attacking our units or moving them near Antium. 4 rifles from the hill tile could move towards Antium and they would be out of our reach. More could come from Berlin. JC will have 2 cannons in the city at that point and he has some infantry on nearby hills. He only has 2 soldiers in the city however! He will pick on those rifles and move troops from Rome and Madrid. He should have arties too at that point, he has some cannons now. Antium is seriously low on defense, but JC should hold his ground. However, Fred has iRazeCityProb = 50, I probably don't have to explain what that means! Maybe we should leave a soldier in the city just in case? Attack tactics most likely needs to be re-evaluated.
T212
Our units reach Berlin. Fred attacks the stack with cannons, or attacks Antium with his remaining units! Hopefully he doesn't capture or raze Antium and JC mops things up with infantry. JC reaches Berlin too, planning to attack Berlin crossing the river.
T213
Bombarding with cannons, reducing defense to 0%, attacking with artillery and infantry. JC takes the city with overwhelming stacks.
We can see Freds movements, if he decides to send rifles on Beijing our soldiers can tackle them. Btw, we have 4 infantry soldiers, 3 rifles and a gren back home currently. We are building only soldiers atm, attack on Berlin will also unlock HE. It will be possible to take Hamburg fast, our stack from Berlin will be reinforced from the north.
Okay, the plan has great potential but needs some refinements. Antium needs more defenders, we can't risk losing a city!
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