SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

I would like to get started on my turn set Sunday afternoon/evening so here's a plan based on the discussion so far:

Tech path: Education - Liberalism - Astronomy (free tech) - Printing Press

We will get a GP in 9 turns. A GS or GM can be used for Printing Press. A GA will be quite useless unless we go for the UN in which case we can trade for Drama and Music and then use the GA to bulb some of Radio or Mass Media.

Builds: Caravel - Mace (Work Boat?) - University (whip) - Oxford (chop 2 forests) - Work Boat (Mace?)

I'm thinking about postponing the Work Boat for a few turns and build a Mace instead. The idea is to get him involved in the war so that he can earn 6 XP and make it possible to build the Heroic Epic. Since we are going to whip the University happy cap should not be a problem.

Trades & Diplomacy: Cancel stone for incense trade with Asoka and replace with a silver for incense deal. Gift copper to Toku and bribe him with CS to attack Izzy. Hopefully his samurai's can deal with her. Gift CS to Washington and bribe him to attack HC next turn with Philosophy or Paper. Try to bribe Asoka to war with Paper (probably not possible). Sell minor techs to our friends for gold and maps. When gifting techs we might as well take a little gold or a map in return.

I'm not sure if we want to DOW HC unless we can bribe Asoka into attacking. If Gators interpretation of dog piling is correct it won't be easier to get Asoka into the war if Washington and us joins the dog pile against HC. Joining will improve our relations to Washington, though. Gator, do you think it makes a difference if we are at war with the civ we are asking Asoka to attack or is it enough that someone else is? Not joining a war freely might allow us to gain a diplo point by joining later when asked by Fred or Washington.

I plan to divide the turn set into two sets and a natural stopping point would be when Liberalism is discovered (unless something unexpected turns up). With Astronomy we get new resource trade options and we should be able to bribe Asoka into war with this expensive tech.

Please comment within the next 24 hours.

 

[ShannonCT]

Please comment within the next 24 hours.

About exploring with our caravel: Keep the caravel as close to the coast as possible, even taking it inside AI cities we get open borders with (but avoid open borders with our friends' worst enemies). If you stay close to the coast, you might spot other AI borders/units two tiles inland. I think we might want to help Asoka get the circumnavigation bonus, so try to get the map of the other continent and then sell our map to Asoka. We can probably pick up some techs from the other continent: Drama, Music, Theology, Engineering. Just avoid Feudalism. Preference should go to trading with AI with no religion and with lower score, to build up allies on the other continent. Intercontinental trade routes are worth more when they're with high population cities, so look to open borders with any AI with big cities.

 

[DJMGator13]

About exploring with our caravel: Keep the caravel as close to the coast as possible, even taking it inside AI cities we get open borders with (but avoid open borders with our friends' worst enemies). If you stay close to the coast, you might spot other AI borders/units two tiles inland. I think we might want to help Asoka get the circumnavigation bonus, so try to get the map of the other continent and then sell our map to Asoka.

When the PA is signed we function as a team, so if we earned the circumnavigation bonus would Asoka get the bonus once the PA goes into effect?

Gator, do you think it makes a difference if we are at war with the civ we are asking Asoka to attack or is it enough that someone else is? Not joining a war freely might allow us to gain a diplo point by joining later when asked by Fred or Washington.

Other than the standard reduced cost for bribing him into the war. I'm not really sure us asking him to join an AI-on-AI war will reduce the cost, unless we join the war first. I haven't tested it, but it should be easy to take an old game, my problem is that most of mine are HOF or GOTM type saves that won't allow you to use Worldbuilder.

 

[leif erikson]

Not sure what the benefit of an Ai to Ai war is? A couple of diplo points?

What we must have is 21 or so more turns of war shared with Asoka (it seems that he is now our target PA civ) before we get to Communism, which isn't that much further off. Whatever it takes to get Asoka into war allied with us, short of allowing him to get to Liberalism before us, we should try to do.

It will be great if we can sign that PA the turn we discover Communism...

 

[rrau]

I'm back and catching up on reading......Conference was more intense than I thought it would be.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm back and catching up on reading......Conference was more intense than I thought it would be.

Nice to see you back. Hope the trip went well, even if it was full of work.

Lots to read...

 

[Mad Professor]

Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
Gator - On Deck (I did this to give MP time to get settled back at home base. It can be switched if desired?)
Mad Professor - Awaiting his return from an African adventure.

I'm back in Melbourne and have read through. I'd prefer Gator played before me as Lief has put here unless he has a problem with that?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Plan sounds good.

As leif said, getting turns of war with Asoka is extremely important. Is Paper the only tradebait we can get?

We should be able to get a home continent tile count once maps are traded.

How many citizens will be whipped for the university?

 

[Frederiksberg]

As leif said, getting turns of war with Asoka is extremely important. Is Paper the only tradebait we can get?

Only other option is to give him Paper and bribe with Education. This is dangerous since he might get Liberalism before us. I think I prefer the safer solution of waiting until we have Liberalism and then bribe with Astronomy. I can try and declare on Capac hoping that this will make the price go down although it's unclear if this will work at all.

We should be able to get a home continent tile count once maps are traded.

I counted the visible tiles and got 262. We need 283 for domination so if 21 tiles are in the fog we barely have the necessary land on our own continent. Getting all tiles covered by our PA partners culture could be difficult so hopefully there are some excess tiles.

How many citizens will be whipped for the university?

I expect to whip 4 pop with some nice overflow going into Oxford. We may briefly go down to pop 11 but should regain pop very fast.

 

[leif erikson]

Only other option is to give him Paper and bribe with Education. This is dangerous since he might get Liberalism before us. I think I prefer the safer solution of waiting until we have Liberalism and then bribe with Astronomy. I can try and declare on Capac hoping that this will make the price go down although it's unclear if this will work at all.

I think we have a couple of options. Certainly, as he is Friendly with us, we could simply ask Asoka "Could you spare this for a good friend"? Is there something I'm missing concerning declaring on HC? He can't get to us except by sea. Once we are at war with HC, perhaps Asoka will join us for Paper?

If we gift Philosophy to Washington, perhaps he will join also for CS?

I counted the visible tiles and got 262. We need 283 for domination so if 21 tiles are in the fog we barely have the necessary land on our own continent. Getting all tiles covered by our PA partners culture could be difficult so hopefully there are some excess tiles.

Seems a good bet that there are more than 21 more tiles on our continent. Didn't play much past the PA, can we decide for the alliance whether cities are kept or razed or would that be Asoka's choice?

I expect to whip 4 pop with some nice overflow going into Oxford. We may briefly go down to pop 11 but should regain pop very fast.

Good luck Fred!

Welcome Home MP. Hope you are getting settled in and that things are returning to normal.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we have a couple of options. Certainly, as he is Friendly with us, we could simply ask Asoka "Could you spare this for a good friend"?

This is double edged since we get a -1 for asking as far as I know. What is the chance of success?

Is there something I'm missing concerning declaring on HC? He can't get to us except by sea.

If Washington joins the war he can get to us.

Once we are at war with HC, perhaps Asoka will join us for Paper?

I will try this, but it's doubtful if it will work.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Been out with a virus.

Would like to revisit argument for taking Astro with Liberalism (if Fred hasn't done it already), because not sure we have considered that Asoka will research Astro very quickly.

Agree with leif that there is little danger in our declaring on HC and hoping that will make bribing Asoka with Paper possible.

 

[ShannonCT]

This is double edged since we get a -1 for asking as far as I know. What is the chance of success?

You dont get negative diplo points for requesting something from a friend. Might as well try it.

Would like to revisit argument for taking Astro with Liberalism (if Fred hasn't done it already), because not sure we have considered that Asoka will research Astro very quickly.

Even if Asoka has partially researched Astro, we'll still be able to bribe him with the other part and with Paper or Education. What is the alternative to taking Astro with Liberalism?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I don't see any alternative to Astronomy either. How can we know what Asoka is researching?

Will start playing very soon...

 

[Frederiksberg]

I have played first half of my turn set (10 turns). Everything went well and we now know 5 of the 7 civs on the other continent.

Pre-turn:

Change stone for incense deal to silver for incense w. Asoka. Gift copper to Toku and bribe him with CS to Attack Izzy. "Gift" CS to Washington in return for map and 10 gold. Declare war on HC. Bribe Washington with Philosophy to declare war on HC. Bribe Asoka with Paper (in return for map and 70 gold) to declare war on HC.

T108: Start mines on plains hill forests. Move axe towards Beshbalik. XBow and cat in Hamburg waiting for an opportunity to strike.
T109: Besbalik is down to 3 defenders, 2 are wounded.
T110: Lizzy offers 30 gold for Optics. I decline.
T111: Education -> Liberalism, Maceman -> University.
T112: Whip University for 4 pop. Kill Kublai's archer in the open. Meet Cyrus. He doesn't have any contact with our friends so it should be safe to trade with him. Trade Philosophy in return for Theology, 40 gold and a world map. There's a lot more land per civ on the other continent!! Meet Saladin and Hatshepsut. They only have Feudalism to trade. Hatty and Cy are Confucian and Sal has no religion!! "Sell" Paper to Saladin for 20 gold to get him pleased. Open borders also. The case for building a missionary is strong now!
T113: Our brave Axe is killed by Kublais counterattack. Hatty offers Feudalism in a deal. Refuse. Asoka Wants to trade Engineering for Education. A little to early for my taste since we have only just started on Liberalism. We get circumnavigation from all the map deals. University -> Oxford.
T114: Washington wants to trade maps. Not going to happen. Sal want's to trade Feudalism for Philosophy. No thanks. Kill HC's spear outside Cuzco. Hopefully he has to few units inside Cuzco to risk a counterattack.
T115: JC offers Feudalism for Philosophy. No deal. Our Xbow outside Cuzco survives and has 6 XP now. Meet Monty. He's behind in tech so I gift him Construction. He could be useful if we want to start some wars. Meet Louis. "Sell" Optics for map and 20 gold. He is also a warmonger and could be useful. Trade Drama for Paper with Hatty.
T116: Oxford -> Missionary. JC captures Beshbalik. Gottfried Leibnitz is born in Beijing (GS). He can research part of Printing Press. Sell Drama to JC for 80 gold.
T117: Missionary -> Work Boat.

I have stopped one turn before we get Liberalism to give CP a chance to present his arguments in the discussion about which tech to take.

I would like to hear opinions on whether we should try to start a war on the other continent.

I have built a missionary an intend to send him to Sal ASAP so that we can win him over to the Hindu side. Then I will go visit the Russians and the Mali.

The save

Some pics:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Frederiksberg]

We can get Printing Press in 3 turns and Astro in 8-9 if we are greedy and want SciMeth as the free tech.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Just noticed that Sal is using the Theocracy civic despite having no state religion. I think this means that we can't spread Hinduism to him unless we can persuade him to give up this civic. Louis or Cyrus could possibly be converted, but we may not want to convert Cyrus as he has the largest pop and is thus the opponent if we build the UN.

Btw. is it possible to form a PA with more than one civ?

 

[rrau]

No, you can't form a PA with more than one civ.
It looks like at least one civ has both philosophy and education. Don't wait on liberalism. We don't want to lose it by being greedy.
We can gift a missionary to someone in Theocracy and see if they use the missionary.

 

[ShannonCT]

Great progress Fred. I'm surprised Asoka assented to war so easily.

We can get Printing Press in 3 turns and Astro in 8-9 if we are greedy and want SciMeth as the free tech.

I can't see any good reason to chance that. The high GNPs of some of the AI and the possibility of them bulbing Education makes me very wary. As I pointed out before, the trade route benefit from Astro will erase much of the tech difference between Astro and SciMeth. And with our current beaker output, it's not even clear that getting SciMeth from Liberalism would speed up Communism at all.

I think we should be safe to open borders with some of the more powerful AI on the other continent. With all of our friends at war at home, it's unlikely that they'll consider any of the Confucians their worst enemy. We'll want open borders so that when we get Astro, our trade routes are with big intercontinental cities.

I think you might have the right idea about starting some wars on the other continent. Whether we win by diplo or domination, the less population on the other continent, the better. We should be able to get Saladin on our side for a possible diplo vote but I expect the Confucian block would be hard to win over. So let them kill each other if they will.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for waiting on me.

My argument for SCMETH with LIBERALISM is simply that if we can get Astro in a trade that would be faster than having to research one of them. My experience is that Astro is a priority with Asoka, but SCT has calculated that the savings would not be very great, so nevermind. It is a risk.

BTW, I can't download Fred's save. Am I the only one with that probem? If so, could someone PM me with a solution. (My computer was infected, and some things may have been changed in order to expel it.)