SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Plan to play in about three hours and pause for discussion no later than when Philosophy and GP come in.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Plan sounds good.

I want to credit some of the good ideas I've read this morning:
make the academy next
researching Philosophy next
having the chance for GM/GS to be used for either Paper/Education
hook silver and have it spare so that AI's can demand it
grow cottages
gift MC to Julius
save CS for when we can get vital techs, Machinery/Compass/(Optics?)
don't get Feudalism so we can build archers
prioritise harbour


I wonder if we can include the number of accumulated turns of shared war into our progress tracking. So at any point we can look up how many turns of shared war we have had with the different civs.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Plan sounds good.

I want to credit some of the good ideas I've read this morning:
make the academy next
researching Philosophy next
having the chance for GM/GS to be used for either Paper/Education
hook silver and have it spare so that AI's can demand it
grow cottages
gift MC to Julius
save CS for when we can get vital techs, Machinery/Compass/(Optics?)
don't get Feudalism so we can build archers
prioritise harbour

That's the plan.


I wonder if we can include the number of accumulated turns of shared war into our progress tracking. So at any point we can look up how many turns of shared war we have had with the different civs.

I started war when I took over -- I think turn 87 -- should be in earlier log.

Playing now -- will post late tonight.

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator, now that war has broken out, please give us an update on the requests I’m likely to receive. Comments on our best responses would be appreciated.

Not much different than what we have been seeing. Since we are active participants in both wars no one can ask us to join. If other AI-on-AI fighting breaks out then we might get asked to join.

My diplo log has the start of both wars noted.

• Asoka..... tech trade @T97
• Alexander..... open border / tech trade T100
• Toku..... stop trading >open border
• Washington..... tech trade @ T94 way > stop trading
• Elizabeth..... tech trade @ T105 > stop trade = Ask for help @ T119 > demand tribute
• J Caesar..... tech trade @ T94 way > stop trading
• Capac..... tech trade @ T103 > stop trading
• Fredeick..... tech trade @ T102 > stop trading
• Isabella..... DOW on turn 86 (refuse to talk until 96)
• Kublai..... DOW on turn 86 (refuse to talk until 94)

 

[Cactus Pete]

Matters seem to be proceeding as anticipated. Here's the log:

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM7 REPORT 650BC TO 325BC (turn 102)​

650BC (turn 89): GS builds Academy

IBT: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!
Julius now has MC and Feudalism (which he won’t trade).

625BC: Aqueduct>workboat
Iron now available for use or trade – Alex already has it but Toku has no metal

600BC: Axe arrives in Japan

IBT: HC demands 70 gold, which I reluctantly give to him, thinking that he has open borders with Washington and having to fight him would seriously slow our progress. However, when I check on him, I find that he will not declare war on anyone because he has too much on his hands right now – JT would suggest he is planning to go to war.

575BC:

wkbt>barracks

Asoka will now trade all techs to us (CS is only 2 turns away)

Lizzie converts to Hinduism, so I trade her Literature for 70 gold.

550BC: Move axe towards Madrid; manage city

525BC: CS>PHIL; revolt to Caste and Bureaucracy; fish netted

Catch Spanish archer outside Hamburg and gain 2 experience

Trade CS to Asoka for compass and 100 gold

Gift HBR to Lizzie, as she has no horses

IBT: Alex insists we cancel our deals with the Germans – we don’t

500BC: Al-khwarizmi is born in Delhi

Asoka now has Machinery – we should be able to trade Phil for it

Gift Compass to Washington

IBT: Asoka adopts Bureaucracy; Mahavira (GP) is born in New York

475BC: Barracks>harbor; cow back to 53% American, fur still 57% ours

Gift Compass to Lizzie

IBT: Toku asks for Currency, and we deliver

Toku makes peace with Issie (can now be bribed to fight Kublai)

Alhazen has been born in London

450BC:

Trade CS and Compass to Frederick for Machinery and no more trading with HC.

Spanish war party approaches Hamburg

IBT: HC terminates open borders with us

425BC: harbor>cat; Spanish soldiers are pillaging Germany

IBT: Issy offers peace, which we decline

400BC: Asoka has Optics to trade; Fred brings maces against Spanish pillagers; Asoka’s war elephant passes through Hamburg (presumably in route south to greet Kublai).

375BC: cat>archer; manage city; Wash finally to +8 and no longer has open borders with HC

350BC: Indian cat and mace heading south past Hamburg

325BC:

Bacon in Beijing just as Philosophy is researched – will start on Paper and save Francis for Education

Trade Philosophy to Asoka for Optics and begin caravel (to make contact with other continent)

Washington now at +9 (all of a sudden he’s getting friendly), and Lizzie to +3

FOR DISCUSSION:

Shouldn’t we go ahead and revolt to Pacifism this turn?

Should we build a missionary to man our caravel, explore, and possibly convert?

Indeed, what should we try to accomplish with the group of civs on the other land mass?

Should we gift silver to Wash or Lizzie to help eventually get one of them engaged in our wars?

Do we want Toku fighting (or pretending to) Kublai?

Do we want to start fighting ourselves, and, if so, against whom and with what units (we can upgrade or build)?

What to do with our workers?

How can we get Asoka to betray Issy?

What’s the likelihood of (and our response to) our allies signing peace treaties?

Anticipate that HC will declare, probably on us, soon if JT's code breaking is valid, but not sure what the implications are.

I can play through Friday morning, so I'd like to have marching orders in 24 hours if you'd have me to continue for additional turns.

Here is the save: SGOTM07 BC-0325.Civ4SavedGame (162.6 KB)

 

[leif erikson]

Matters seem to be proceeding as anticipated.

Yes, things look very good indeed!

FOR DISCUSSION:

Shouldn’t we go ahead and revolt to Pacifism this turn?

I think it would be a great idea. I think we could also hire a Scientist after the next turn when we grow to size 14.

Should we build a missionary to man our caravel, explore, and possibly convert?

Yes, I think this would be a good idea. Let's see what is on the other continent and start some Hinduism there once we have seen what we need to see. Let's hope for some good trading opportunities.

Should we gift silver to Wash or Lizzie to help eventually get one of them engaged in our wars?

We could gift it to Washington. I think once we have Astronomy and see what trade deals are available on the other continent. Then we may want to trade it there for health or happiness?

Do we want Toku fighting (or pretending to) Kublai?

Don't really see why as I don't think we would want him as a PA partner. UInless one of our allies needs some help?

Do we want to start fighting ourselves, and, if so, against whom and with what units (we can upgrade or build)?

What to do with our workers?

How about if we build a windmill on the plains hill NE of Beijing?

How can we get Asoka to betray Issy?

She is -3 and Cautious towards Asoka while he is +1 and Pleased with her???? I don't understand it really. Toku could use another city?

What’s the likelihood of (and our response to) our allies signing peace treaties?

Have a tech available to bribe them back into war.
Who is our most likely candidate for a PA at this point?
Do we want to start trading preferentially with this civ (or civs)?

Anticipate that HC will declare, probably on us, soon if JT's code breaking is valid, but not sure what the implications are.

Yes, I think you are correct. He cannot get to us except by boat as he has no Open Borders with Washington. They aren't likely to sign anything soon either as they are annoyed with one another.

I can play through Friday morning, so I'd like to have marching orders in 24 hours if you'd have me to continue for additional turns.

OK. What stopping point shall we use?

Some other things. Shall we upgrade our Archers to Cho-Ko-Nu's? They cost 125 Gold each.
If we are going to Pacifism, do we need to keep our Warrior? I think we should try to work in that Monastery some time for the additional 10% research?
Shall we trade for Feudalism with Julius. He could probably use CS and Machinery? Fred wants Philosophy plus 360 Gold, curmudgeon...

It will be interesting to see how many tiles are on the other continent. Should we begin to start thinking of who we want to expand most.
The power graphs are interesting. Julius seems to have taken a fair bite out of Khan. If Julius makes peace with Khan, perhaps his next target should be Izzie as I think he could take her out.

 

[ShannonCT]

Looking very good CP. This game is a breeze so far (knock on wood).

One question I have is what happened to our fur camp? Did someone pillage? Anyway, our workers need to rebuild it ASAP. And I'd like to see all of our cottages worked at Pop14, rather than the two coastal tiles.

Capac definitely looks like he's preparing for war, but against us, I'd be surprised. He can't get to us with no open borders with Washington or Lizzy. We just need to keep an eye on the open borders situation. And we can start building some Cho-kos in any case.

I think a pretty good case can be made for revolting to Pacifism now. If our next GP is a GS or GM, he can be used for Printing Press. Without Pacifism, the next GP would come in 18 turns unaided. With Pacifism, it's 13 turns. 13 turns should match up pretty closely with our Liberalism date. The hammer bonus from OR isn't very big anymore. It only works out to a 14% bonus for building a University and an 8% bonus for building Oxford. Pacifism gives us GPs 50% faster.

I don't know that a single missionary in our caravel can do much good right now. If we explore the other continent and find several AI without a religion, we could send galleon-loads of missionaries over (with a monastary) and work toward a possible diplo victory. Right now, we just want to meet everyone else so that our trade routes go up in value after Astro and so that we can plan out our victory strategy. We can probably secure a good amount of gold from the other continent by trading techs and maps. We could also look to start some wars to reduce the population of the other continent.

Gifting silver to Wash or Lizzy wont necessarily improve relations for a while. It doesn't give a "fair trade relations" bonus, and it takes a while for a "you've provided us with resources" bonus to kick in. If we want Washington to join us in war, we would probably need to gift him a tech. We are going to need to get our stone back from Asoka soon. We can trade him marble or silver to keep the incense.

Gifting bronze to Toku and bribing him to fight Kublai sounds good. It should help Julius or Asoka capture his cities faster. As for our own fighting, the most important thing is to get a 10XP unit so we can build the HE. Maybe we should upgrade an archer or two and send them to Germany/Rome and try to pick off wounded Spanish/Mongol units. If we stay in allied territory, we will have the movement advantage. Also bear in mind as you're fighting that the order the AI are listed on the tech trading screen is the same as their play order. Knowing this can sometimes help you keep your units in your allies stack.

Not sure how likely it is that our allies will sign peace treaties. If they do, we need to find a way to get them to fight someone else (Alex or Capac) ASAP. We started the wars on turn 87. 40 straight turns of shared war would put us at turn 127. Expect Communism around turn 130-140. That doesn't leave much wiggle room.

 

[ShannonCT]

How about if we build a windmill on the plains hill NE of Beijing?

Not a bad idea. That tile would be worth 1 food, 2 hammers, and 3 commerce. What about chopping the two remaining hill forests? That would speed up the construction of a University by 3-4 turns at the cost of 1 health.

Have a tech available to bribe them back into war.
Who is our most likely candidate for a PA at this point?
Do we want to start trading preferentially with this civ (or civs)?

I'd say Asoka is the hands down favorite. He's a big GNP leader and has respectable hammer output. After we get Liberalism, we can trade more freely with him.

OK. What stopping point shall we use?

I believe CP has 5 more turns at his disposal.

Some other things. Shall we upgrade our Archers to Cho-Ko-Nu's? They cost 125 Gold each.

Probably. Send them into battle and try to get to 10XPs.

If we are going to Pacifism, do we need to keep our Warrior?

Probably, for MP duty, especially if we use some units for fighting.

Shall we trade for Feudalism with Julius. He could probably use CS and Machinery? Fred wants Philosophy plus 360 Gold, curmudgeon...

No to Feudalism. We need to avoid it so that if we get a GM, he can bulb Printing Press rather than Guilds.

 

[Mad Professor]

Good going CP.

I'm nervous about Capac as he's definitely preparing for war. There are two encouraging things though - one is we agreed to his demand for gold, and usually an AI won't declare on you after you agree to such a thing (not for a while anyhow) whereas he almost certainly will if you refuse in the same situation. The other encourging things is that he can't get to us without declaring war or having open borders with a couple of player he doesn't have OB with. Need to watch his every move though. It would be nice to see if he's moving units around somewhere.

I think the idea of sending a cho-ko (say) into an ally's space to pick off wounded enemies for experience is a good one. I prefer wars where there's no chance of getting hurt, but having at least one unit with 10XP will be a bonus if we want to go for domination later so we can build units with the HE.

I agree we don't want feudalism yet. It's always expensive to get from AI's in any case, and it is to our advantage to not have it so we can bulb printing press as SCT says. It will be cheaper later and we can pick it up then. Maybe it will be good to have it later when we really need the health of a grocer or something (from guilds) but I can't think of another pressing reason right now.

Hope that caravel comes off the productin line quick and sails straight. I'm keen to find out where civs on the other continent are at tech-wise. The journey to liberalism is important.

 

[leif erikson]

I'd say Asoka is the hands down favorite. He's a big GNP leader and has respectable hammer output. After we get Liberalism, we can trade more freely with him.

Looking at the graphs, I think you're right.

In that case, I think we should gift the Silver to Asoka. Perhaps it will allow his cities to grow another pop?

As we near the Communism point, we may want to try to buy Washington into a war as far south as possible to get him to send troops there. Then we can backstab him and raze New York and have Asoka capture Washington. We will need to plan to have an army capable of such a feat.

No to Feudalism. We need to avoid it so that if we get a GM, he can bulb Printing Press rather than Guilds.

Forgot this.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Very nice progress. I really like that we have traded for Compass, Machinery and Optics so early!

FOR DISCUSSION:

Shouldn’t we go ahead and revolt to Pacifism this turn?

Should we build a missionary to man our caravel, explore, and possibly convert?

Indeed, what should we try to accomplish with the group of civs on the other land mass?

Should we gift silver to Wash or Lizzie to help eventually get one of them engaged in our wars?

Do we want Toku fighting (or pretending to) Kublai?

Do we want to start fighting ourselves, and, if so, against whom and with what units (we can upgrade or build)?

What to do with our workers?

How can we get Asoka to betray Issy?

What’s the likelihood of (and our response to) our allies signing peace treaties?

Anticipate that HC will declare, probably on us, soon if JT's code breaking is valid, but not sure what the implications are.

I think revolting to Pacifism is a good idea, and I would follow that with building a Monastery for the 10% science and the ability to build a missionary. I would, however, let the first caravel explore - we can always build a second caravel to take a missionary to the other continent if we find some civs without religion.

I also like leif's suggestion of building a windmill on the plains hill.

And, as Shannon says, we need to keep the wars going. In particular with potential PA partners like Asoka and JC.

Are we safe from naval attacks? I haven't looked at the save since I left for Spain.

 

[leif erikson]

@CP - It appears that the GOTM server may be down per AlanH's post HERE.

Once you finish, if you cannot upload to through the server, please post it in this thread by attachment and we'll upload it when it is back on line.

Good Luck!!

 

[Frederiksberg]

I haven't really followed the discussion lately so I have a question. What is the reason behind switching to Caste System? We can already hire two scientists because of the Library and with Oxford we can hire 5 in total. Wouldn't it be more flexible to stay in Slavery thus allowing us to whip units for emergencies and maybe whip the University. Right now focus is on growing Beijing and that means having few scientists and by the time that we are ready to hire more scientists we most likely have Oxford.

 

[Cactus Pete]

One question I have is what happened to our fur camp? Did someone pillage? I have no idea. I have been oblivious. Logically, one of Issy's units must have done it, but I do not recall one in the area or a red-letter warning appearing. Could it be a bug?Anyway, our workers need to rebuild it ASAP. Next turn, then the windmill. And I'd like to see all of our cottages worked at Pop14, rather than the two coastal tiles. It's a short-term vs. long-term trade off. Are you sure about this? We're looking to get to Communism as early as turn 130 now. Is getting there a few turns quicker perhaps worth a little slower tech rate thereafter?

I think a pretty good case can be made for revolting to Pacifism now. This seems to be the concensus -- Pacifism now, and no missionary on the caravel.

We are going to need to get our stone back from Asoka soon. We can trade him marble or silver to keep the incense. Won't need stone until we're ready to build Oxford. Conceivably we might need marble to get horses at some much later point and there might be a good trade for silver a bit sooner (either for dyes or even a food resource from the other continent), so I'm inclined to hold off on resource trading for now.

Gifting bronze to Toku and bribing him to fight Kublai sounds good. It should help Julius or Asoka capture his cities faster. I'm fine with getting Toku to go to war with Kublai, but I have no "bronze" to gift him and he wants CS. Do we want to offer that? (As for our own fighting, the most important thing is to get a 10XP unit so we can build the HE. Maybe we should upgrade an archer or two and send them to Germany/Rome and try to pick off wounded Spanish/Mongol units. If we stay in allied territory, we will have the movement advantage. Also bear in mind as you're fighting that the order the AI are listed on the tech trading screen is the same as their play order. Knowing this can sometimes help you keep your units in your allies stack. Will definitely upgrade an archer and send south immediately for experience. I'm debating whether it would be better to upgrade and immediately send a second archer or to build a mace and have him follow behind (rather have him against the Mongol UU). Comments?QUOTE]

Thinking a bit ahead . . . If we are going to try to win via Domination, then Mongol territory would be the ideal initial conquest, as it is farthest away. Therefore, perhaps we should continue to send units south to help fight Kublai and to try to get his cities into Asoka's hands, ideally with the last one falling on turn 40 of our shared war.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I haven't really followed the discussion lately so I have a question. What is the reason behind switching to Caste System? We can already hire two scientists because of the Library and with Oxford we can hire 5 in total. Wouldn't it be more flexible to stay in Slavery thus allowing us to whip units for emergencies and maybe whip the University. Right now focus is on growing Beijing and that means having few scientists and by the time that we are ready to hire more scientists we most likely have Oxford.

Good argument. We can switch to both Pacifism and Slavery with only one turn of revolution. Caste System does offer flexibility in the number and type of specialists being run. Like to hear some other voices on this before I play again -- tentatively in about 9 hours.[/COLOR]

What priority a wkbt to harvest whales?

 

[ShannonCT]

It's a short-term vs. long-term trade off. Are you sure about this? We're looking to get to Communism as early as turn 130 now. Is getting there a few turns quicker perhaps worth a little slower tech rate thereafter?

If we start working the cottages now, they will be worth 3 commerce by the time we get the 125% beaker bonus from university/Oxford. The longer we wait to grow them, the bigger the long term loss. In the short term, what is the loss? Working three coastal tiles instead of three cottages gives a loss of 6 base commerce per turn for 10 turns. 60*1.5*1.75=157.5. That's about 1 turn's worth of beakers. So at worst, it delays Communism by 1 turn. I think the better option is to work the coastal tiles AND all of the cottages by growing as quickly as possible. After the caravel is finished, stop working the stone and marble and work the highest food/commerce tiles. When we're at Pop18, we can work everything (but the two hill forests) and won't have to worry about trade-offs.

I'm fine with getting Toku to go to war with Kublai, but I have no "bronze" to gift him and he wants CS. Do we want to offer that?

OK, copper then. Can't think of a good reason to give Toku CS right now, unless he demands it.

I'm debating whether it would be better to upgrade and immediately send a second archer or to build a mace and have him follow behind (rather have him against the Mongol UU). Comments?

If we keep our units near German/Roman cities, we can probably just pick off wounded enemy units and not have to worry about fighting full strength Keshiks. No harm building a mace per se but don't we have other things to build first? A workboat for whales? More MPs? If we we send one upgraded archer south now, we will be at our happiness cap next turn. We need to make sure we keep the happiness cap growing at least as fast as our growing population, and we are going to be tied up building the university and Oxford for a while. So maybe we need caravel - workboat - archer - archer - archer - etc until we can start the university.

Good argument. We can switch to both Pacifism and Slavery with only one turn of revolution. Caste System does offer flexibility in the number and type of specialists being run. Like to hear some other voices on this before I play again -- tentatively in about 9 hours.

Fred's probably right. Being able to run 5 scientists is plenty. I can't see any reason to run merchants or artists. Slavery might be good for whipping the university.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we start working the cottages now, Okay, moving citizens onto cottages.


OK, copper then. What are you trying to tell me? Can't think of a good reason to give Toku CS right now, unless he demands it.

If we keep our units near German/Roman cities We can certainly go there first and see what's moving about, but Issy, and perhaps Kublai as well, may have retreated into their cities by now., we can probably just pick off wounded enemy units and not have to worry about fighting full strength Keshiks. No harm building a mace per se but don't we have other things to build first? A workboat for whales? More MPs? If we we send one upgraded archer south now, we will be at our happiness cap next turnWas going to delay caravel one turn to build another archer.. We need to make sure we keep the happiness cap growing at least as fast as our growing population, and we are going to be tied up building the university and Oxford for a while. So maybe we need caravel - workboat - archer - archer - archer - etc until we can start the university. I'm concerned that if Julius and Asoka are not winning in the south, they will make peace and thwart plans to take southern cities first, not to mention making Kublai more difficult to deal with long term. Thinking a mace and a chok to go with our cat (en route) might allow us to effect the outcome in addition to gaining experience.

Fred's probably right. Being able to run 5 scientists is plenty. I can't see any reason to run merchants or artists. Slavery might be good for whipping the university.

Double civics change now in the plan.

 

[ShannonCT]

What are you trying to tell me?

I'm suggesting that if we want to get Toku to declare on Kublai, we should give him some metal (copper). He wont be very aggressive without it. Better than giving him CS to declare war would be to give him Construction and whatever else it takes to get him to declare. I think we may need to wipe out Toku later so we'd better not let him get too advanced.

As far as building a maceman to help with the war, there's a tradeoff. We need cheap units to act as MPs and we need a workboat. And we should expect Education to be completed in ~10 turns. So if you can build a maceman while still giving us enough MPs to grow to at least Pop18 while we build the university and Oxford, go for it.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I would like to reiterate the need for a Monastery soon. It will add 8 beakers per turn and it only takes 2 turns to build. My suggestion is to build it after the caravel.

If we start working the cottages now, they will be worth 3 commerce by the time we get the 125% beaker bonus from university/Oxford. The longer we wait to grow them, the bigger the long term loss. In the short term, what is the loss? Working three coastal tiles instead of three cottages gives a loss of 6 base commerce per turn for 10 turns. 60*1.5*1.75=157.5. That's about 1 turn's worth of beakers. So at worst, it delays Communism by 1 turn. I think the better option is to work the coastal tiles AND all of the cottages by growing as quickly as possible. After the caravel is finished, stop working the stone and marble and work the highest food/commerce tiles. When we're at Pop18, we can work everything (but the two hill forests) and won't have to worry about trade-offs.

I think Shannon is making a good case for working the cottages.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm suggesting that if we want to get Toku to declare on Kublai, we should give him some metal (copper). He wont be very aggressive without it. Better than giving him CS to declare war would be to give him Construction and whatever else it takes to get him to declare. I think we may need to wipe out Toku later so we'd better not let him get too advanced.Are you saying that Toku would be more easily bribed into war if he has a metal (if so, had no idea that was a consideration) or are you saying that he would be more likely to venture south if we gift a metal?

As far as building a maceman to help with the war, there's a tradeoff. We need cheap units to act as MPs and we need a workboat. And we should expect Education to be completed in ~10 turns. So if you can build a maceman while still giving us enough MPs to grow to at least Pop18 while we build the university and Oxford, go for it.

And Fred wants a monastery. I'll try do what works out to be most efficient.